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Did J-10 really come from Lavi?

the J-10 project streched back before the LAVI, you can either make (copy) an identical plane like F-2 to F-16, or a design from buttom-up```even the former one requires solid technological know-how`````a state-of-art airplane requires a holistic aviation industry that consists of hunderds of sophisticated syppliers and independent developers, same to many other weapon systems```people are ignorant or having stereotypes regarding China's military might is that they dont know China is the second country has a complete defense industry after the U.S`````state-of-art defense tech deos not equal to whether you can make fancy cars or sleek soil plates```
 
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Another copy of Lavi

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And one more copy hmmm

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And eventually all aircrafts are copies of Right Brother's machine. Everyone should invent a new wheel and should not make a copy.

So Lavi flew 1986, canceled in 1987 due to America pressure. Chinese went to Israel and got the prototype. In 1991 J-10 mockup finished identical to Lavi. You be the judge.


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歼10首飞试飞员向宋文骢敬礼:这才叫真正的飞机
2017-03-23 10:10:16 来源: 网易军事
歼10——神圣的使命

出乎意料的转折

纪念歼10总设计师宋文骢逝世一周年(1930年3月26日-2016年3月22日)
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Song Wencong (1930 - 2016)

1982年2月,我国新型战斗机研制方案评审论证会在北京海运仓总参谋部招待所召开。会议由国务院国防工办和航空工业部联合主办。这次会议规模很大,邀请了有关单位领导和航空界专家共141人参加。会议的主题就是评审由兄弟单位提出的新歼设计方案。

宋文骢、成志明、谢品和王子方等来自611所的4个人也应邀参加了这次会议。参加会议前,宋文骢很为兄弟单位感到高兴,他们制定的新歼方案能引起领导机关如此重视,召开这样规模的会议来进行评审,确实是很不容易的。可让宋文骢措手不及的是,当天预备会之后,航空工业部军机局副局长王若松突然来到了他们的房间,希望611所的同志也能在会上讲一讲自己的方案,并给他们争取了15分钟的发言时间。

为了牢牢抓住这来之不易的一刻钟,宋文骢和其他几个同志从兄弟单位借了几张空白的明胶片,连夜从带来的资料里,将鸭式布局飞机的图形、基本数据重要性能曲线摘录下来,制作了几张汇报用的明胶片。这一切忙完,已是夜深人静了。宋文骢后来戏谑道:“我们这叫做临阵磨枪,不快也光。”

第二天一早,一进会场,与会者的目光就被兄弟单位制作的飞机模型,以及会场四周挂满的飞机示意图、各种设计数据图吸引了。汇报过程中,兄弟单位主讲人结合飞机模型讲解,向领导和专家们汇报了近2小时。

一天的汇报和讨论结束后,晚上,在招待所的房间里,宋文骢拿出了昨天画的几张明胶片,一边看一边陷入了思索——“新歼研制事关中国国防建设、中国空军未来发展的大计。我们决不能重蹈歼9的老路了。国家在这么困难的情况下,拿出这么大一笔钱搞新歼研制,实在是不容易啊!我们要搞,就要搞一架像样的飞机,搞一架能在未来10年或20年都不落后于世界的飞机,我们要从学习模仿的传统思维里跳出来,搞一架真正由中国人自行设计的先进战斗机!”

第三天上午,会议继续进行。轮到宋文骢发言了,没有飞机模型,没有图样资料,手里有的只是连夜赶制出来的几张明胶片。

然而,宋文骢一开始发言就引起了与会者的极大兴趣,他从当前世界战斗机发展的现状、结合未来的空战将会怎样打讲起,然后他话锋一转,讲我们的新歼应该具备的基本战术技术指标,要实现这些指标,新歼设计应采取何种气动布局,采取哪种飞控系统和拦射火力系统……最后,宋文骢用明胶片展示出他们这些年来设计的鸭式气动布局飞机方案,对具体战术技术指标数据进行了简要的说明。并表示以上方案满足目前的要求是有希望的。

宋文骢的汇报结束后,会场陷入短暂的沉默,继而是一阵窃窃私语,交头接耳。最后,不知是哪个同志首先鼓起掌来,引起会场上一片热烈的掌声。

这次会议从2月16日开到25日。围绕新歼的战术技术指标、气动布局、飞控和火力系统等进行了严肃而周详的研究讨论。会议最后做出了出乎与会者意外的决定:新歼研制事关国防建设未来大计,这次会议暂不确定方案,当前还需要继续发扬民主,畅所欲言,充分听取不同意见,理清思路;两个总体设计研究所继续做新的方案,3个月以后再开会进行论证。

鸭式布局方案脱颖而出

1982年4月,新歼方案评审会再次在北京空军招待所召开。611所参加会议的人虽然比兄弟单位少一点,但也来了20多人。而在会议议程表上安排的方案汇报时间,虽说兄弟单位排在前面,但两个单位汇报方案的时间是均等的,都是一天时间。

第二天,兄弟单位的方案汇报整整持续了6小时,但是给人的感觉是他们在过去3个月虽然又做了不少工作,但基本的东西并没有太大的变化,只是在原来的方案上进行了一些修正和改进。

第三天,轮到宋文骢代表611所汇报方案了。宋文骢汇报了他们准备的两个新歼设计方案。这两个方案都是鸭式布局,只是一个是采用腹部进气,一个是采用两侧进气。他首先讲解了鸭式布局在世界飞机发展中的普遍规律,鸭式飞机目前在先进国家应用的状况,以及为什么要采用这种布局的理由,同时他具体分析了无尾布局、固定前翼布局、全动前翼布局等几种布局技术的优势和不足,特别是具体分析了涡机理和参数匹配等问题。

“这里还要考虑机动性、武器系统、雷达系统等问题。比如我们设计的腹部进气方案,就主要考虑大迎角机动问题……”宋文骢用手比画着,向与会者讲道。

坐在前排的谢光看宋文骢在上面用手比画,他顺手把放置在桌子上的有机玻璃飞机模型给宋文骢递了上去,示意他照着实物模型给大家讲解,这样让大家更明白更清楚些。

宋文骢接过模型,想对着模型给大家讲解。但他看了一下模型——这模型实在太小了,下面的同志根本看不清楚。宋文骢一眼看见桌上放明胶片投影仪投射的光柱,他灵机一动,将模型从支架上拔了下来,直接往投影仪上一放——这全透明的有机玻璃飞机模型投在后面的幕布上——好家伙,这架飞机看起来非常漂亮非常壮观!极具时代感,简直就像人们在电影屏幕上看见一架现代的战斗机威风凛凛地穿行在云海雾霭里一般!


这次会议接着开了5天。分为总体气动、动力系统、飞控系统、武器系统等专业组进行了充分讨论。讨论结果,与会领导与专家基本认可了宋文骢提出的鸭式腹部进气设计方案。会议决定,两个方案暂不定,还要回去深入做工作,同时进行新歼技术经济先期论证,总体方案要上报中央军委和国防科工委审批。

“宋总呀,我们盼望你所描绘的这种飞机,是盼了多少年哪!”空军首长的一位秘书找到宋文骢,“您能不能忍痛割爱,把你那个模型送给我,让我们的飞行员饱饱眼福,给我们留个纪念哪!”

“哎呀,实在抱歉,我这个模型不能给你。”宋文骢想了想,“这样吧,我另外送给你一个。”说着把带来的另一个飞机模型交给了这位首长秘书。

会上用的这个飞机模型,跟随了宋文骢20多年,它虽说小巧简陋,却不动声色地见证了一段中国战斗机研制的历史。

一架飞机从完成基本构想到真正设计成型,谈何容易!

宋文骢提出的鸭式布局新歼设计方案,在北京会议上被基本认可之后,他除了为自己这几十年来的探索总算见到一线曙光而感到有几分欣慰外,并没有一丝功成名就的欣喜,反而感到一种巨大压力。

回到成都,宋文骢又向所里汇报了北京之行的情况。全所上下很快知道了评审会的大体情况:他们设计的新歼方案虽然未最终确定,但军方有一定的倾向,一部分专家也很支持,极有可能被选中,但还需要再做深入工作。所里上上下下精神振奋,主动请缨,按航空工业部的要求召开了新歼论证工作动员会,在宋文骢组织领导下,所里组建了有70多人参加的结构、飞控、航电及机电等几个论证组,全面开始了新歼技术经济先期论证,全所热情高涨地行动起来了。

与此同时,新歼研制工作在北京也紧锣密鼓进行着。国防工办连续召开了新歼机载电子设备、武器火控系统、辅机成品、试飞测试等研讨会。这些会上,对新歼的战术技术指标做了进一步明确。1983年3月,航空工业部正式下发了开展新歼技术经济先期论证工作的通知,明确了从飞机、发动机、武器火控系统、惯导系统、飞控系统、其他机载设备系统和复合材料几方面进行论证项目要求、负责单位、参加单位、完成日期等。

到1984年1月,宋文骢具体组织的新歼技术经济先期论证工作已全面完成。先后完成高速、低速风洞试验3900余次,完成了结构、飞控、航电及机电系统方案设计,设计了以涡喷15为动力装置的6个腹部进气鸭式布局飞机方案,编写上报了论证报告。

机遇总是给有准备的人。

1984年2月,航空工业部科技委在河北涿县桃园宾馆召开了新歼布局方案会议,国防科工委、空军及有关专家119名代表参加,会议重点讨论了新歼先期方案和发动机的选型问题。在会议上,611所设计的鸭式布局方案取得一致好评。紧接着,国防科工委领导在北京召见了宋文骢等有关专家。回到宾馆后,航空工业部科技委副主任王南寿同志宣布:经中央领导和航空工业部研究决定,611所提出的鸭式布局方案,被最后确定为新歼方案!

1984年5月,国防科工委正式下达关于新歼研制总体单位定点问题的批复,确定新歼研制总体单位为611所和132厂。

1984年6月,国防科工委在北京召开新歼方案论证会,宋文骢做了新歼方案汇报,同时和空军最后商定了新歼重要指标要求。审查确定了新歼初步方案,对新歼的研制提出了很高的要求。次年4月,航空工业部下达了新歼研制工作计划,明确了要着重抓好鸭式布局的气动设计、航电总体及飞控系统等合作项目的研究工作,同时抓紧软件的引进和人员培训、安装准备工作,开展有关试验工作和关键零部件的技术攻关等。

1986年7月14日,国防科工委正式发出经张爱萍批准的任务书,任命王昂为新歼(歼10飞机)型号行政总指挥,宋文骢为新歼(歼10飞机)总设计师。这一年,宋文骢已是56岁了。

至此,宋文骢肩负着党和国家的重托,肩负着歼10研制神圣的使命,坚定地向着他理想中的目标跋涉而去。他的身后,留下的是义无反顾的足迹。

Source:http://war.163.com/17/0323/10/CG737U8B000181KT.html

Baidu Translate:
In February 1982, the evaluation and demonstration of our new fighter development plan will be held at the General Staff Headquarters of Beijing maritime storage. The meeting was jointly sponsored by the State Council defense industry office and the Ministry of aviation industry. The conference was very large, and invited 141 leaders from the relevant units and aviation experts. The theme of the conference is to review the new design plan proposed by the brotherhood.


Song Wencong, Cheng Zhiming, Xie pin and Wang Zifang and other 4 people from 611 were invited to attend the meeting. Before the meeting, Song Wencong was very happy for the brotherhood. The new plan of annihilating that they had made could cause the leadership to pay so much attention to it. It was really not easy to hold such a meeting to review it. Song Wencong was unprepared for that, after the day of the preparatory meeting, the deputy director of the aviation industry department, Wang Ruosong, suddenly came to their room, hoping that the 611 comrades could also talk about their plans at the meeting and have given them 15 minutes to speak.


In order to seize the hard won moment, Song Wencong and some other comrades borrowed some blank gelatin from his brother's units, and from the information that they brought in the night, the graph and basic data of the duck layout aircraft were extracted and several gelatin tablets were made for reporting. All this is busy, it's dead at night. Song Wencong later jokingly said, "we call this a gun, and we are unhappy."


Early in the second day, as soon as the meeting was entered, the attention of the participants was drawn by the model of the aircraft made by the brothers, as well as the schematic maps of the aircraft all around the meeting, and the various design data drawings. During the reporting process, the brotherhood leader talked with the aircraft model and reported to leaders and experts for nearly 2 hours.


At the end of the day's report and discussion, at night, in the room of the hostel, Song Wencong took out some of the gelatin films that had been painted yesterday and fell into thinking - "the new annihilate development of China's defense construction and the future development of the Chinese air force. We must never repeat the old way of the annihilating 9. It is not easy for a country to make such a large sum of money for new development in such a difficult situation. If we want to do it, we should get a decent plane and get a plane that will not lag behind the world in the next 10 or 20 years. We should jump out of the traditional thinking of learning and imitate, and make an advanced fighter designed by the Chinese itself! "


On the third morning, the meeting continued. It was Song Wenji's turn to speak. There were no model planes, no drawings, and only a few pieces of gelatin made overnight.


However, at the beginning of his speech, Song Wencong aroused great interest from the participants. He began to speak from the current situation of the development of the world fighters and the future of the air war. Then he turned to the basic tactical and technical indicators that our new fighters should have. What should be taken to achieve these targets and what should be taken in the new fighter design. What kind of flight control system and fire control system are adopted? Finally, Song Wencong used gelatin film to show the plan of the ducks pneumatic layout aircraft that they have designed in these years, and gave a brief description of the specific tactical and technical data. It is also hoped that the above plan meets the current requirements.


After Song Wencong's report, the meeting fell into a brief silence, followed by a whisper. Finally, I do not know which comrades first applauded, causing a warm applause in the meeting hall.


The meeting opened from February 16th to 25. The tactical and technical indicators, aerodynamic layout, flight control and firepower system of the new fighters have been thoroughly studied and discussed. At the end of the meeting, the conference made an unexpected decision: the new annihilate development is about the future of national defense construction. The conference is temporarily undetermined. At present, we need to continue to carry forward democracy, speak freely, listen to different opinions and clarify ideas; the two general design institute will continue to make a new plan and meet again after 3 months. Make a demonstration.

The duck layout scheme stands out

In April 1982, the evaluation of the new annihilate scheme was held again at the Beijing air force guest house. 611 of the people attending the conference were less than the brothers, but more than 20 people came to the conference. And the plan reporting time on the agenda of the meeting, although the brotherhood unit is in front, but the two units report the time is equal, it is one day.


On the second day, the report of the brothers' unit continued for 6 hours, but the feeling was that they had done a lot of work in the last 3 months, but the basic things did not change too much, only some amendments and improvements had been made on the original plan.


On the third day, it was Song Wencong's turn to represent the 611 reporting scheme. Song Wencong reported on their two new design plans. These two schemes are all canard layout, only one is abdominal intake, the other is intake on both sides. He first explained the general rule of the duck layout in the development of the world aircraft, the current situation of the duck type aircraft in the advanced countries, and the reasons for the use of this layout. At the same time, he analyzed the advantages and disadvantages of several layout techniques, such as the tail free layout, the fixed front wing layout, the full moving front wing layout and so on. The problems of vortex mechanism and parameter matching are analyzed concretely.


"We should also consider mobility, weapon system, radar system and so on. For example, we designed the abdominal intake plan, mainly considering the large angle of attack maneuver problem. " Song Wencong spoke to the participants with his hand.


Xie Guang, sitting in the front row, saw Song Wencong on the top of his hand. He handed over the model of the organic glass plane placed on the table.


Song Wencong took the model and explained it to the model. But he looked at the model - the model was too small for the comrades below to see clearly. Song Wencong saw a column of light projecting the film projector on the table. He pulled the model off the scaffold and put it straight into the projector. The transparent plexiglass model was put on the back of the curtain - good guy, the plane looks very beautiful and spectacular! It's like watching a modern fighter plane on a movie screen in a sea of clouds and fog.



The meeting went on for 5 days. It has been divided into the total pneumatic, power system, flight control system, weapon system and other professional groups. As a result, the leaders and experts at the meeting basically approved the design of Song Wencong's abdominal air intake. The meeting decided that the two schemes were temporarily uncertain, and they should go back to work deeply and carry out a new technical and economic demonstration of the annihilate technology and economy. The overall plan should be submitted to the Central Military Commission and the National Defense Department for approval.


"Song chief, we look forward to how many years you've been looking for." A secretary of the head of the air force found Song Wencong, "can you bear the pain of your love, give me your model, let our pilots get full, give us a memorial!"


"Oh, I'm really sorry, but I can't give you this model." Song Wencong thought, "well, I'll give you another one." Then he handed the other aircraft model to the chief secretary.


The model of the plane, followed by Song Wencong for more than 20 years, has witnessed a history of the development of a Chinese fighter, although it is small and simple.


It is not easy for an aircraft to complete the basic concept and design it.


Song Wencong proposed a new design of the duck layout, after being basically recognized at the Beijing conference, he felt a little relieved that he had seen a glimmer of dawn for his decades of exploration, and had no glimmer of success, but felt a great pressure.


Back in Chengdu, Song Wencong reported to Beijing about his trip. The general situation was quick to know the general situation of the review conference: the new plan of annihilate they designed was not finalized, but the military had a certain tendency, and some experts were very supportive, most likely to be selected, but further work was needed. At the request of the Ministry of aviation industry, a new fighter demonstration work mobilization meeting was held in accordance with the requirements of the Ministry of aviation industry. Under the leadership of the Song Wen organization, a number of demonstration groups, such as the structure, the flight control, the aviation electricity and the mechatronics, were set up by the more than 70 people in the Song Wen Dynasty. The ground moves.


At the same time, the development of new annihilate development is also in full swing in Beijing. The defense industry office has held new seminars on airborne electronic equipment, weapons and fire control systems, auxiliary aircraft and flight test. At these meetings, the tactical and technical indicators of the new annihilate were further clarified. In March 1983, the Ministry of aeronautical industry formally issued a notification of the new technical and economic demonstration of the technology and economy, which clearly demonstrated the project requirements, the units, the units, the completion date of the aircraft, the engine, the weapon fire control system, the inertial navigation system, the flight control system, the other airborne equipment systems and the composite materials. Wait.


By January 1984, Song Wencong's newly organized technical and economic demonstration work was fully completed. More than 3900 times of high speed and low speed wind tunnel test have been completed. The scheme design of structure, flight control, avionics and electromechanical system is completed. The scheme of 6 abdominal air intake ducks with turbojet 15 as power device is designed to write the report.

Opportunities are always given to people who are prepared.

In February 1984, the science and Technology Commission of the Ministry of aviation industry held a new annihilate plan meeting at Taoyuan hotel in Zhuo County, Hebei, with the participation of 119 representatives of the National Defense Department, the air force and the relevant experts. The meeting focused on the new plan of the annihilate and the selection of the engine. At the meeting, 611 designed duck layout schemes were well received. Then, the leader of the national defense science and Technology Commission summoned Song Wencong and other relevant experts in Beijing. After returning to the hotel, comrade Wang Nanshou, deputy director of the science and Technology Commission of the Ministry of aviation industry, announced that, after the research and decision of the central leadership and the Ministry of aviation industry, the 611 proposed duck layout scheme was finalized as a new plan of annihilate.


In May 1984, the National Defense Commission of Science and Industry officially issued a reply on the problem of locating the general units for the development of new fighters. The total units for the development of new fighters were 611 and 132 factories.


In June 1984, the national defense science and Technology Commission held a new fighter plan demonstration meeting in Beijing. Song Wencong made a new report of the annihilated plan, and finally agreed with the air force to meet the requirements of the new annihilate key targets. The preliminary plan of the new annihilate was determined by the review, and high requirements for the development of the new fighter were put forward. In April, the next year, the Ministry of aeronautical industry reached a new plan of research and development. It was clear that we should focus on the research work of the cooperative projects such as the pneumatic design of the duck layout, the overall aviation power and the flight control system and so on. At the same time, the introduction of software, the training of personnel, the preparation of the installation, the technical attack of the key parts and the key parts should be carried out. Wait.


In July 14, 1986, the Work Committee of the National Defense Department formally issued a task book approved by Zhang Aiping, and appointed Wang ang as the chief executive of the new J-10 (J-10 aircraft) model, and Song Wencong was the chief designer of the new annihilate (J-10). Song Wencong was 56 years old this year.


At this point, Song Wenji shouldered the heavy responsibility of the party and the country, shouldered the sacred mission of annihilation 10 research and development, firmly trudged toward his ideal goal. Behind him, he left behind no hesitation.


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Song Wencong (1930 - 2016)
"The model of the plane, followed by Song Wencong for more than 20 years, has witnessed a history of the development of a Chinese fighter, although it is small and simple."


@undertakerwwefan
 
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OP, let's say it is a copy of the outward appearance of Lavi and the general layout. So what? What is the purpose of needing to make everyone understand this point. Yes let's assume CAC 100% copied Lavi from cooperation of Israelis because they wanted someone to buy the project from their hands. What's your point of starting this thread about a fighter that is decades old already? That's like someone starting a post about how the Soviet Union couldn't make submarine turbines and got Toshiba to secretly help them. What would be the point of something like that? What about how the Russians copied Rolls Royce engine? Could go on forever with examples all around the world. We get it, you hate China. LOL
 
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Lavi was developed since the early 1980s. Even if J-10 model in 1982 looked the same as Lavi, who's to say J-10 didn't copy Lavi back in 1982?
 
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Yes yes they bought the whole project from the Israelis once the Americans pressured the Israelis to purchase more F-16s and abandon Lavi project. So what. A lot of early work on these engineering tasks are trial and error based and cost so much time and money. It doesn't require genius to start off a project but does require two things China has very limited quantities of; time and money. China does this with so many platforms and technologies not just military ones. Get these things started, domestic, then catch up. If they went from scratch, they'd only just have started building J-10As for PLAAF. Now they are on J-10C which is at least internally very different from Lavi and even aerodynamically quite different considering weight distribution, materials, geometry of edges, dimensions, engines, ...........
 
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Lavi was developed since the early 1980s. Even if J-10 model in 1982 looked the same as Lavi, who's to say J-10 didn't copy Lavi back in 1982?
Can you provide any information about Lavi before 1982?
 
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It isn't the first time one group at least partially "copied" (in this case purchased) something and will definitely not be the last (and this is assuming CAC's J-10 is 100% derived from Israel and Israeli assistance). Why make a huge deal out of it? Everyone does it from time to time, copy from the best. If Su-57 was any good, you can bet CAC or SAC would be copying it, instead, they "copy" the American 5th gen method because it is better. India's plans for AMCA also look similar to Lockheed Martin 5th gen "method", same with Korea's KF-X, same with Turkey's TF-X, they are all copying the LockMart method (oh and have you seen the Tempest mockup and Airbus vaporware? Both look like LockMart products too! :P). India meanwhile abandoned the FGFA for now. Guess something isn't worth copying or buying anymore.

We can't reason with the unreasonable. The Russia Stronk cheerleaders are plaguing even places like F-16 forum after they've spread from their home turf of RussiaDefence and invaded places like keypub and sinodefence. Just go to RussiaDefence to read the delusions. These cheerleaders are blinded by a nationalism many times worse than Chinese+Indian+US nationalism lol just can't take the massive fall from Soviet "glory". Politically I am partial to Russia and fall on their side but ignoring reality will always make for unreasonably bitter and angry people who eventually become more of a problem.
 
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See my first post.
Yes, you said "So Lavi flew 1986, canceled in 1987 due to America pressure. Chinese went to Israel and got the prototype. In 1991 J-10 mockup finished identical to Lavi. You be the judge."
Ridiculous!
 
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J-10 is at least heavily inspired by the Lavi. That is actually obvious. What I don't get is the attached shaming. The innards are mostly different. It fires Chinese ordinance, and even the first J-10s uses Chinese avionics even though Israeli and Russian help was sought (and paid for!) in the development and assistance of preliminary fly by wire (again so nothing... Saab got heaps of assistance from BAe and many US subcontracting companies for components in development of Gripen... Gripen is still 100% Swedish and is immensely useful for Swedish Airforce same goes for M1A+ models carrying German main guns.... also used by Koreans and Japanese and Israelis in their licensed productions of those Rheinmetall guns . Even if Chinese engineers could do it all themselves, they preferred to have more experienced partners checking and assisting (esp wrt first attempts at FBW). Also this saved many many years of tedious, expensive and dangerous experimentation.

Yes, you said "So Lavi flew 1986, canceled in 1987 due to America pressure. Chinese went to Israel and got the prototype. In 1991 J-10 mockup finished identical to Lavi. You be the judge."
Ridiculous!

Well Lavi started development at least in early 80s and by early 80s they have had design nailed down for many years. We don't need to deny these trivial things. It is based off Lavi in different capacities, the specifics of which we will not know, but the original aerodynamics is definitely based off Israeli work on Lavi. So what. They had a great single engined airframe that PLAAF had a project for and much of the tedious work was done. What was left was to domesticate it and branch off that. Certainly better than buying Mig-29s when F-16s are obviously out of reach.
 
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