Dhruv helicopters fly high in Uttarakhand

[GoodBoy]

there are reports that IAF pressed C-130 into service.not for rescue but for recon.

......

 

[Parul]

48 Dead Bodies found in Haridwar

 

[sancho]

A heavylift Mi- 26 has already landed at Gauchar with 30 barrels of fuel and 70 paratroopers

@Abingdonboy

Impressive, don't you think?

 

[anant_s]

48 Dead Bodies found in Haridwar

My the Departed Souls Rest in Peace.

 

[Manindra]

Salute to my Armed Forces.

 

[Koovie]

Salute to the military and the paramilitary forces! They truly serve the nation very well! So proud of them.

Jai Hind!

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Abingdonboy

Impressive, don't you think?

Indeed it is- this kind of capability needs to be retained and added to by India. Whilst the Mi-26 has limited military utility it is certainly the machine for the job in such humanitarian roles. As such the NDMA should procure 10+ MI-26s for themselves.


+ if the IAF had its 15 Chinooks right now, they'd be playing a big part too @sancho. And they would be able to take the aid/personnel right to where it is needed.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Indeed it is- this kind of capability needs to be retained and added to by India. Whilst the Mi-26 has limited military utility it is certainly the machine for the job in such humanitarian roles. As such the NDMA should procure 10+ MI-26s for themselves.

+ if the IAF had its 15 Chinooks right now, they'd be playing a big part too @sancho. And they would be able to take the aid/personnel right to where it is needed.

The Mi-26 is a machine of some "chequered utility". Leave the "paper specs" aside for a little while now. Can anyone tell us how many Mi-26s are being utilised now? How many are even serviceable now as we speak? What kind of sortie generation rate can they sustain?Apart from the issues of trying to fly and land those behemoths in the terrain where this disaster has occurred. How many Heli-pads exist in that area that can handle this Helo in the first place? How suitable are Mi-26s for "last-mile" operatons and deliverability? Would anyone here offer some answers to those questions.
Of course there is another question-how many Heli-pads are there in that region that are even Mi-17 capable?

Therefore the question still hangs over our head:How suitable are Mi-26s in this scenario to act as "First Responders"?

 

[Abingdonboy]

The Mi-26 is a machine of some "chequered utility". Leave the "paper specs" aside for a little while now. Can anyone tell us how many Mi-26s are being utilised now? How many are even serviceable now as we speak? What kind of sortie generation rate can they sustain?Apart from the issues of trying to fly and land those behemoths in the terrain where this disaster has occurred. How many Heli-pads exist in that area that can handle this Helo in the first place? How suitable are Mi-26s for "last-mile" operatons and deliverability? Would anyone here offer some answers to those questions.
Of course there is another question-how many Heli-pads are there in that region that are even Mi-17 capable?

Therefore the question still hangs over our head:How suitable are Mi-26s in this scenario to act as "First Responders"?

Sir, I agree with every single point and that is pretty much what I've said. The Mi-26 is a great, one of a kind, heavy lifter and if you want to move large loads you go to the Mi-26 first. But its utility is very limited in war as well as most of the time in peace. The way it is being utilised right now in Uttarakhand is the only way it can be used- lifting heavy loads to a depot/main operating base from where other,smaller, helos are taking the supplies the "last-mile" ie ALH, Cheetah, Chetak, Mi-17 etc. This is another argument for the C-17 over and above the likes of the An-124. This is where the US and Russian/Soviet mindset differs- the US/West is very much about that "last mile" connectivity so the C-17 and Chinook are large and can take decent loads without being excessively and prohibitively large (Ala Mi-26/An-124).


If the Chinook was in IAF service today they'd be taking equipment and men right to where they are needed. The Mi-26 simply cannot do so- the down wash it creates alone would destroy any unprepared LZ hastily created In foreward locations. Addtionally the Ch-47 can fast-rope/slither in rescuers whereas, for reasons stated, the Mi-26.


Wrt availability of the Mi-26- it is abysmally low and only 4,IIRC, of these behemoths survive today so, at most, 1 maybe 2 are available at any one time for this kind of work.


However, like I said, these beasts do have a very real utility albeit very limited and I wouldn't be against the NDMA ordering 10+ of these helos for themselves to be used in exactly the role they are being used today. For moving enormous loads nothing beats a Mi-26. For everything else the Chinook, and others, will readily do.

 

[janon]

The Mi-26 is a machine of some "chequered utility". Leave the "paper specs" aside for a little while now. Can anyone tell us how many Mi-26s are being utilised now? How many are even serviceable now as we speak? What kind of sortie generation rate can they sustain?Apart from the issues of trying to fly and land those behemoths in the terrain where this disaster has occurred. How many Heli-pads exist in that area that can handle this Helo in the first place? How suitable are Mi-26s for "last-mile" operatons and deliverability? Would anyone here offer some answers to those questions.
Of course there is another question-how many Heli-pads are there in that region that are even Mi-17 capable?

Therefore the question still hangs over our head:How suitable are Mi-26s in this scenario to act as "First Responders"?

They are not acting as first responders, but as a sort of second line of transport. They are bringing in barrels of aviation fuel for the lighter helis to sustain operations. Both have their utility, I suppose.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

They are not acting as first responders, but as a sort of second line of transport. They are bringing in barrels of aviation fuel for the lighter helis to sustain operations. Both have their utility, I suppose.

Of course both types of Helos have "specific utilities". But that does not answer the questions that I have posed in any complete sense. One of the issues with the Mi-26 is that it is rather "terrain-sensitive" apart from serviceability/maintainability issues.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

.


Wrt availability of the Mi-26- it is abysmally low and only 4,IIRC, of these behemoths survive today so, at most, 1 maybe 2 are available at any one time for this kind of work.


However, like I said, these beasts do have a very real utility albeit very limited and I wouldn't be against the NDMA ordering 10+ of these helos for themselves to be used in exactly the role they are being used today. For moving enormous loads nothing beats a Mi-26. For everything else the Chinook, and others, will readily do.

The first part of the underlined section above works against the second part.

If there are 10 of those choppers on inventory strength with NDMA or Pawan Hans or MHA/BSF or IAF or whoever; how many of them are likely to remain serviceable at any given time then?

 

[Abingdonboy]

The first part of the underlined section above works against the second part.

If there are 10 of those choppers on inventory strength with NDMA or Pawan Hans or MHA/BSF or IAF or whoever; how many of them are likely to remain serviceable at any given time then?

Maybe I should have made myself clearer- I am proposing 10 MI-26T2 (the improved version with modern avionics and improved reliability) for the NDMA, PAWAN HANS or MHA. These should ONLY be in civilain control as in the military (IAF) it serves little military utility.

The Mi-26s the IAF currently flies are some 35+ years old but these T2s are said to have much improved availability and have an all-weather, night flying, capabitlty which the IAF's current -26s lack.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Maybe I should have made myself clearer- I am proposing 10 MI-26T2 (the improved version with modern avionics and improved reliability) for the NDMA, PAWAN HANS or MHA. These should ONLY be in civilain control as in the military (IAF) it serves little military utility.

The Mi-26s the IAF currently flies are some 35+ years old but these T2s are said to have much improved availability and have an all-weather, night flying, capabitlty which the IAF's current -26s lack.

How much 'better or improved' are they?

No point in throwing 'good money after bad' ! It will be good enough if the surviving examples are kept serviceable. Not to forget that these birds are even terrain sensitive.

 

[sancho]

Indeed it is- this kind of capability needs to be retained and added to by India. Whilst the Mi-26 has limited military utility it is certainly the machine for the job in such humanitarian roles. As such the NDMA should procure 10+ MI-26s for themselves.

If this was not a disaster but a Chinese attack and many roadlinks and bridges would be destroyed, with only limited airstrips availble (many possibly destroyed), which might be even far away from the destroyed infrastructure, how do you transport such heavy supplies, machinery, or the troops to re-construct them again? With a heavy lift helicopters!!!

So the mission remains the same, lifting heavy loads in areas where fixed wing aircrafts can't be used. You still confuse the Chinook and the C17 in US forces, with that they will do in our forces, but that's a big difference, because both don't have tatical roles in our forces!

+ if the IAF had its 15 Chinooks right now, they'd be playing a big part too @sancho. And they would be able to take the aid/personnel right to where it is needed.

Of course IAF would use the Chinook but you basically need 2 of them to carry the same mentioned load and no, they won't be used as MEDIVACs, because it can't be used in many of these areas now as well, because of size or weight limitations of the helipads. Only to transport a large number of injured to a base with proper medical facilities Chinooks would be used, in any other case, the size, weight, speed and numbers of the Dhruv / Mi 17 fleet will be the clear first choice (that's why they should be under IA's airwing).
So they might do their job too, but not with the same or even similar performance of the Mi 26 now and that's what's makes it different to real heavy lifters.

Therefore the question still hangs over our head:How suitable are Mi-26s in this scenario to act as "First Responders"?

Not really, because you only look at the time after the fall of the Soviet Union, which lead to the lack of support and not how it would be if we had new once of them supplied by Russia, or comparable western heavy lifters. Do we have similar problems with our Mi 17s, or the MKIs that we bought from Russia after the Soviet Union? So maintenability of decades old stuff is not the issue now, the important points however are,...

...how many sorties would the Chinook need to carry 30 fuel barrels and 70 troops?
...how would IAF carry heavy machinery to to prepare the helipads or airstrips?
...how would IAF carry trucks, or cranes to re-build roads and bridges?

Because that what's important at the moment and what needs to be done as fast as possible to help the people!

As Janon said, these heavy lifters are never the first responders anyway, they provide the heavy, big sized stuff after the first responders already arrived in the area and set up a forwarded base, from which the supplies these heavy lifters carries will be used, or diverted.