Dhruv Chopper Likely to Be Deployed On-board INS Vikramaditya to detect hostile submarines

[Brahmos_2]

PANAJI: Indigenously-built Dhruv helicopter is likely to be deployed on country's largest warship Russian-origin aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya for carrying out the role of detecting hostile submarines.

If inducted, the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) will be the first indigenous system to be integrated on the warship, which so far operates only imported equipment such as the MiG 29K naval combat fighters and the Kamov-31 helicopters.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited-built ALH Dhruv is undergoing trials for carrying out role of detecting hostile submarines using systems developed by the DRDO, Defence officials said here.

The system was put under trial at Vishakhapatnam and would be tried further before any final decision is taken on deploying the twin-engine chopper on board the carrier, they said.

The chopper was used last Saturday to ferry senior Defence Ministry and Special Protection Group officials from a naval base in Goa to the INS Vikramaditya deployed far from the shore in the Arabian Sea during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to the largest warship in the Navy.

The twin-engine chopper has been developed by the HAL with support from European firms which provide engines for the 5.5 tonne machine.

The Dhruv is also part of the Coast Guard inventory which uses it for search and rescue operations in coastal areas.

The machine was used extensively by the IAF and the Army to carry out disaster relief operations in flood and landslide hit Uttarakhand last year.

The chopper has already been inducted in significant numbers in all three forces and has also been inducted in the paramilitary forces.


Dhruv Chopper Likely to Be Deployed On-board INS Vikramaditya -The New Indian Express

 

[sancho]

Lets wait and see, IN rejected the naval Dhruv exactly because they said it wouldn't have enough range and capability for the ASW role and are considering foreign LUH in the same class for that role too. The not existing electric folding system might not be the problem for the carrier, but it looks more like a consideration for indigenous pride again, rather than making the carrier really capable.

 

[Bhasad Singh Mundi]

Very good induct in large numbers and work on to improve shortcomings. Fu*k the imports and dalals

 

[godofwar]

Very good induct in large numbers and work on to improve shortcomings. Fu*k the imports and dalals

Yes how can we compete with foreign companies who have extensive experience in designing and deploying various platforms.
We have to learn to walk first before we can sprint with the best.
Its easy to put down desi stuff for not being as good as foreign maal but how will we improve if don't induct indigenous platforms.They need time to mature.

 

[sancho]

Yes how can we compete with foreign companies who have extensive experience in designing and deploying various platforms.
We have to learn to walk first before we can sprint with the best.
Its easy to put down desi stuff for not being as good as foreign maal but how will we improve if don't induct indigenous platforms.They need time to mature.

In this case we are walking already, since the Dhruv is doing pretty good. But sometimes you need a different set of shoes to walk in a different region and the naval Dhruv did not met all requirements of IN, so we need to work on them and get the right shoes that fits.

 

[godofwar]

In this case we are walking already, since the Dhruv is doing pretty good. But sometimes you need a different set of shoes to walk in a different region and the naval Dhruv did not met all requirements of IN, so we need to work on them and get the right shoes that fits.

IMO we need to emulate China of 90s when they were under military sanctions in response to Tiananmen square(sp)
They turned this crisis into opportunity by inducting indigenous platforms exclusively.
They are now reaping the benefits of pain suffered in 90s in form of a matured MIC.

We should import foreign platforms only when it is for a critical project or if the difference between desi and imported maal is humongously big.

Another example I learnt today of the same thing is AEWACS- India is taking slow and painful route of doing its own R & D while Pakistan took the shortcut of buying foreign maal to bridge the gap.
Who will be better off in 20 years ?

Surya’s Chariots: India’s AWACS Programs

In parallel, India has moved to implement AWACS capabilities on a smaller platform, in order to provide broader aircraft coverage of its territory. The goal there is to field a Tier 2 platform based on Embraer’s ERJ-145 jet, and Indian radar and electronics, allowing India to join the global ranks of AWACS designers. Just to make things interesting, their arch-rival Pakistan offers a contrasting case study, with quicker fielding of off-the shelf buys from China (Y-8 based ZDK-03

) and Sweden (Saab 2000 Erieye).

Sure we will suffer short term pain in not being able to match Pakistani AEWACS in numbers for another 4 years or so, but after that we will have a huge strategic advantage in being able to make our own AEWACS.
We should adopt a more long term outlook in defense procurements than inducting the best available thing currently.

 

[sancho]

IMO we need to emulate China of 90s when they were under military sanctions in response to Tiananmen square(sp)
They turned this crisis into opportunity by inducting indigenous platforms exclusively.

First of all, we are not under sanctions, but have more access to arms and techs than ever before, so emulating China would be the worst thing to do.
Secondly, they didn't inducted indigenous platforms only, but are largely dependent on licence produced or copied aircrafts an the latter were not even as capable as the originals, so that's not a good way to follow either.

They have their ways, while we MUST have our own ways!

We should import foreign platforms only when it is for a critical project or if the difference between desi and imported maal is humongously big.

That's what we are doing, but the plain reality is, our industry is not able to offer even basic level arms and techs that would be comparable to foreign counterparts. In some fields we even seem to get worse, like in the trainer field, where we developed trainer earlier but now fail to develop modern versions.
Bottom line is, we can only procure from our industry, what they ACTUALLY can provide, but they mainly promise things and don't deliver. So it's not the procurement side that we have to change, but the delivering side!

Another example I learnt today of the same thing is AEWACS- India is taking slow and painful route of doing its own R & D

AWACS India is the best example to show how inefficient out industry is today! They are dreaming about developing an AWACS comparable to the A50 Phalcon, but they haven't even delivered the first AWACS system yet! It's a complete nut case from the point of view of IAF, that is desperately waiting for AWACS capability in useful numbers for years and that continue to support the indigenous developments. But instead to provide IAF with what they need and start production of the system in useful numbers, DRDO is looking at their own interest only and is asking for funds for AWACS India, which not even IAF wants at the moment. They need to get a base number of AWACS operational first, to secure India and then, they can look further for more capable indigenous developments.

We can't allow our industry and scientists to risk Indias security, only for their own interests!

 

[godofwar]

That's what we are doing, but the plain reality is, our industry is not able to offer even basic level arms and techs that would be comparable to foreign counterparts. In some fields we even seem to get worse, like in the trainer field, where we developed trainer earlier but now fail to develop modern versions.
Bottom line is, we can only procure from our industry, what they ACTUALLY can provide, but they mainly pr omise things and don't deliver. So it's not the procurement side that we have to change, but the delivering side!

Then we have reached an impasse
We want our domestic platforms to be capable of standing toe to toe with the best the world has to offer
And yet we fail to realize that in order to achieve this we either have to induct inferior products first or pay the the penalty in terms of delay in induction or most likely, both.
Whatever we can make now, other nations can make better and in a more timely manner, perhaps cheaper too.
This situation will not change unless we sacrifice some of the present for the future.
Something has to give.

100% indigenization of procurements can not happen in a few years but that is the direction we need to go in rather than taking the short term view of importing the best available thing.

If the problem is low number of AWACS then the solution should not be to import more Phalcons.The solution should be to hold relevant people in DRDO accountable for not being able to achieve the deadlines they promised.

We need to reform the system rather than relying on imports.

 

[sancho]

Then we have reached an impasse
We want our domestic platforms to be capable of standing toe to toe with the best the world has to offer
And yet we fail to realize that in order to achieve this we either have to induct inferior products first or pay the the penalty in terms of delay in induction or most likely, both.

No, we have to get rid of the idea that we need to develop and provide arms and techs that are world class, because that's not the case. We need to provide arms and techs that suits the requirements of our forces and not are equal or better to foreign counterparts. This look to foreign counterparts, be it other countries or companies is the biggest mistake we do, because that lets ourself to dream big and not to get a rational idea of what we need and what we can do.
IN needs a naval LUH with a reasonable ammount of range and as it seems an automatic folding system for rotors and tail. The earlier can be dealt in a very simple way, by adding external fuel tanks to external hardpoints:

I am not an aircraft designer and obviously have no PS skills at all, but I want solutions from our industry and not just complaints and the usual blames against politicians and alleged kickbacks.
This (at least imo) could be a solution to fulfill IN's range requirements and even if the Dhruv then still offers less performance than other foreign counterparts, it wouldn't matter anymore, since we are able to provide the forces with at least the minimum requirements and that's what counts!

100% indigenization of procurements can not happen in a few years but that is the direction we need to go in rather than taking the short term view of importing the best available thing.

100% indigenization is just a term to blind people, but isn't the best for our forces and the security of the countly. Because it limits our arms and techs to what Indian industry is able to provide, while we also will need more capable stuff at the high end. LCA would be great as the base of IAF, but we need FGFA on top, because it add far superior capabilities, that neither LCA nor our industry can offer. Nirbhay will be a good base, but we need Brahmos M and Brahmos 2 on top. EMB 145 DRDO is a good base, but we need A50 Phalcons too...
That's where the co-development offers us the best solution to get both, high techs and indigenous development and production shares, which then is also a better alternative to pure indigenous developments.

If the problem is low number of AWACS then the solution should not be to import more Phalcons.The solution should be to hold relevant people in DRDO accountable for not being able to achieve the deadlines they promised.

No it's both! We need addition Phalcons as short term solutions to keep India secure, but we need to take DRDO officials and scientists accountable for their delays and mistakes too and make them understand that they must deliver first, before they go on to dream. We need the 3 x EMB 145 DRDO AWACS (and imo at least 2 more) in production or induction, before we can move on to the next project.

 

[godofwar]

snip

It seems you are putting words in my mouth and arguing with yourself.
I don't like to break huge posts into small block and argue about small details so plz don't drag it into an internet slinging match about who can write more/who is more vella.

We need to provide arms and techs that suits the requirements of our forces and not are equal or better to foreign counterparts.

Of course.And If they suit our requirements better then aren't they better for us ?
I hope we are not debating about simple interpretation of words.

100% indigenization is just a term to blind people, but isn't the best for our forces and the security of the countly. Because it limits our arms and techs to what Indian industry is able to provide, while we also will need more capable stuff at the high end. LCA would be great as the base of IAF, but we need FGFA on top, because it add far superior capabilities, that neither LCA nor our industry can offer. Nirbhay will be a good base, but we need Brahmos M and Brahmos 2 on top. EMB 145 DRDO is a good base, but we need A50 Phalcons too...

100% indigenization is a long term goal.I already said

We should import foreign platforms only when it is for a critical project or if the difference between desi and imported maal is humongously big.

100% indigenization of procurements can not happen in a few years but that is the direction we need to go in rather than taking the short term view of importing the best available thing.

So I don't know who are you arguing against.

No it's both! We need addition Phalcons as short term solutions to keep India secure, but we need to take DRDO officials and scientists accountable for their delays and mistakes too and make them understand that they must deliver first, before they go on to dream. We need the 3 x EMB 145 DRDO AWACS (and imo at least 2 more) in production or induction, before we can move on to the next project.

Whether we really need more Phalcons right now to keep the country secure or whether DRDO should build 3 AWACS before going towards expansive projects is a question for experts in the relevant fields.
Maybe its more efficient to start work on advanced AWACS concurrently ?
I feel I am not qualified to comment on this.
I am talking about need of general procurement policy that aggressively pushes for induction of indigenous platforms.

 

[sancho]

It seems you are putting words in my mouth and arguing with yourself.
I don't like to break huge posts into small block and argue about small details so plz don't drag it into an internet slinging match about who can write more/who is more vella.

Not sure what you are refering too, please explain.

And If they suit our requirements better then aren't they better for us ?

Yes, but that is not the case for most of of the indigenous developments. Infact most fall short and that's why they can't be inducted.

100% indigenization is a long term goal.I already said
So I don't know who are you arguing against.

As I explained, that's only PR and I'm not arguing against what you said here, but showed why that is not a good idea, since there must be competition between indigenous and foreign products to get the best for our defence requirements. In some cases indigenous products hopefully will be better, in other cases they won't.

Whether we really need more Phalcons right now to keep the country secure or whether DRDO should build 3 AWACS before going towards expansive projects is a question for experts in the relevant fields.

Isn't that obvious? We have just 3 x AWACS for several 1000 KMs of borders (only counting western, northern and eastern) than needs to be monitors 24/7. IAF has stated that they have a minimum requirement of 15 x aircrafts to do the job and that today, not at the end of the decade, when the first AWACS India might be available. And unless the EMB 145 DRDO AWACS is ready for induction, we need more Phalcons, that's why the follow order was more than needed. Just as we should place a follow order for the EMB 145 DRDO AWACS, as soon as the first is inducted to fill the minimum needs of the forces, while DRDO can start the development of AWACS India later too.

There is no need of pushing indigenous platforms, but a need to deliver the promised platforms according to the requirements and timelines!

 

[godofwar]

There is no need of pushing indigenous platforms, but a need to deliver the promised platforms according to the requirements and timelines!

This is the crux of the argument, leaving all specifics aside.

Where we disagree is whats happens if/when the programs fail to meet the requirements-
You say we import from abroad and discipline DRDO in all cases
I say we stick with the program and discipline DRDO unless its a critical project or
the gap in ability/delay in procurement is huge ?

Is that right ?

 

[Bhasad Singh Mundi]

This is the crux of the argument, leaving all specifics aside.

Where we disagree is whats happens if/when the programs fail to meet the requirements-
You say we import from abroad and discipline DRDO in all cases
I say we stick with the program and discipline DRDO unless its a critical project or
the gap in ability/delay in procurement is huge ?

Is that right ?

We need to set requirements based on what are the threats in our neighborhood rather than reading the brochure of the cutting edge tech that the western countries have.

 

[GR!FF!N]

@sancho

does this news indicate that inability of procuring new ASW helos has forced IN to reconsider to deploy Naval Dhruv for short term??

its not that bad.but I don't know why they didn't deploy its rotor folding capability yet.for short range,its probably a good choice,though,they were not built for this purpose and they're no Sea Hawk..Navy also expressed its interest on Rudras and said they're going to induct at least 20 of them.

 

[amitkriit]

Good news for the domestic defence industry. Even if our equipment are a bit less capable compared to the western ones today they will get upgraded gradually.