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DG ISI should be Civilian?

When Spies Don’t Play Well With Their Allies

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WASHINGTON — As they complete their training at “The Farm,” the Central Intelligence Agency’s base in the Virginia tidewater, young agency recruits are taught a lesson they are expected never to forget during assignments overseas: there is no such thing as a friendly intelligence service.

Foreign spy services, even those of America’s closest allies, will try to manipulate you. So you had better learn how to manipulate them back.

But most C.I.A. veterans agree that no relationship between the spy agency and a foreign intelligence service is quite as byzantine, or as maddening, as that between the C.I.A. and Pakistan’s Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence, or I.S.I.

It is like a bad marriage in which both spouses have long stopped trusting each other, but would never think of breaking up because they have become so mutually dependent.

Without the I.S.I.’s help, American spies in Pakistan would be incapable of carrying out their primary mission in the country: hunting Islamic militants, including top members of Al Qaeda. Without the millions of covert American dollars sent annually to Pakistan, the I.S.I. would have trouble competing with the spy service of its archrival, India.

But the relationship is complicated by a web of competing interests. First off, the top American goal in the region is to shore up Afghanistan’s government and security services to better fight the I.S.I.’s traditional proxies, the Taliban, there.

Inside Pakistan, America’s primary interest is to dismantle a Taliban and Qaeda safe haven in the mountainous tribal lands. Throughout the 1990s, Pakistan, and especially the I.S.I., used the Taliban and militants from those areas to exert power in Afghanistan and block India from gaining influence there. The I.S.I. has also supported other militant groups that launched operations against Indian troops in Kashmir, something that complicates Washington’s efforts to stabilize the region.

Of course, there are few examples in history of spy services really trusting one another. After all, people who earn their salaries by lying and assuming false identities probably don’t make the most reliable business partners. Moreover, spies know that the best way to steal secrets is to penetrate the ranks of another spy service.

But circumstances have for years forced successful, if ephemeral, partnerships among spies. The Office of Strategic Services, the C.I.A.’s predecessor, worked with the K.G.B.’s predecessors to hunt Nazis during World War II, even as the United States and the Soviet Union were quickly becoming adversaries.

These days, the relationship between Moscow and Washington is turning frosty again, over a number of issues. But, quietly, American and Russian spies continue to collaborate to combat drug trafficking and organized crime, and to secure nuclear arsenals.

The relationship between the C.I.A. and the I.S.I. was far less complicated when the United States and Pakistan were intently focused on one common goal: kicking the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan. For years in the 1980s, the C.I.A. used the I.S.I. as the conduit to funnel arms and money to Afghan rebels fighting Soviet forces in Afghanistan.

But even in those good old days, the two spy services were far from trusting of each other — in particular over Pakistan’s quest for nuclear weapons. In his book “Ghost Wars,” the journalist Steve Coll recounts how the I.S.I. chief in the early 1980s, Gen. Akhtar Abdur Rahman, banned all social contact between his I.S.I. officers and C.I.A. operatives in Pakistan. He was also convinced that the C.I.A. had set up an elaborate bugging network, so he had his officers speak in code on the telephone.

When the general and his aides were invited by the C.I.A. to visit agency training sites in the United States, the Pakistanis were forced to wear blindfolds on the flights into the facilities.

Since the Sept. 11 attacks, C.I.A. officers have arrived in Islamabad knowing they will probably depend on the I.S.I. at least as much as they have depended on any liaison spy service in the past. Unlike spying in the capitals of Europe, where agency operatives can blend in to develop a network of informants, only a tiny fraction of C.I.A. officers can walk the streets of Peshawar unnoticed.

And an even smaller fraction could move freely through the tribal areas to scoop up useful information about militant networks there.

Even the powerful I.S.I., which is dominated by Punjabis (Incorrect, its Pashtuns), Pakistan’s largest ethnic group, has difficulties collecting information in the tribal lands, the home of fiercely independent Pashtun tribes. For this reason, the I.S.I. has long been forced to rely on Pashtun tribal leaders — and in some cases Pashtun militants — as key informants.

Given the natural disadvantages, C.I.A. officers try to get any edge they can through technology, the one advantage they have over the local spies.

For example, the Pakistani government has long restricted where the C.I.A. can fly Predator surveillance drones inside Pakistan, limiting flight paths to approved “boxes” on a grid map.

The C.I.A.’s answer to that restriction? It deliberately flies Predators beyond the approved areas, just to test Pakistani radars. According to one former agency officer, the Pakistanis usually notice.

As American and allied casualty rates in Afghanistan have grown in the last two years, the I.S.I. has become a subject of fierce debate within the C.I.A. Many in the spy agency — particularly those stationed in Afghanistan — accuse their agency colleagues at the Islamabad station of actually being too cozy with their I.S.I. counterparts.

There have been bitter fights between the C.I.A. station chiefs in Kabul and Islamabad, particularly about the significance of the militant threat in the tribal areas. At times, the view from Kabul has been not only that the I.S.I. is actively aiding the militants, but that C.I.A. officers in Pakistan refuse to confront the I.S.I. over the issue.

Veterans of the C.I.A. station in Islamabad point to the capture of a number of senior Qaeda leaders in Pakistan in recent years as proof that the Pakistani intelligence service has often shown a serious commitment to roll up terror networks. It was the I.S.I., they say, that did much of the legwork leading to the capture of operatives like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah and Ramzi bin al-Shibh.

And, they point out, the I.S.I. has just as much reason to distrust the Americans as the C.I.A. has to distrust the I.S.I. The C.I.A. largely pulled up stakes in the region after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan in 1989, rather than staying to resist the chaos and bloody civil war that led ultimately to the Taliban ascendance in the 1990s.

After the withdrawal, the American tools to understand the complexity of relationships in Central and South Asia became rusty. The I.S.I. operates in a neighborhood of constantly shifting alliances, where double dealing is an accepted rule of the game, and the phenomenon is one that many in Washington still have problems accepting.

Until late last year, when he was elevated to the command of the entire army, the Pakistani spymaster who had been running the I.S.I. was Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani. American officials describe this smart and urbane general as at once engaging and inscrutable, an avid golfer with occasionally odd affectations. During meetings, he will often spend several minutes carefully hand-rolling a cigarette. Then, after taking one puff, he stubs it out.

The grumbling at the C.I.A. about dealing with Pakistan’s I.S.I. comes with a certain grudging reverence for the spy service’s Machiavellian qualities. Some former spies even talk about the Pakistani agency with a mix of awe and professional jealousy.

One senior C.I.A. official, recently retired, said that of all the foreign spymasters the C.I.A. had dealt with, General Kayani was the most formidable and may have earned the most respect at C.I.A. headquarters in Langley, Va. The soft-spoken general, he said, is a master manipulator.

“We admire those traits,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/20/weekinreview/20mazzetti.html

:pakistan:
 
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Why ISI which has NO CIVILIANS working for it should be governedby a Civilian?
The number is small but civilians work in the ISI.

Does Pakistan already have civil intelligence agencies?FIA,IB etc?wats their performance??
FIA is an investigative agency not an intelligence agency. Nonetheless, it has Financial Crimes Investigation wing which runs its intelligence operations and the Human Trafficking wing runs its own.

The IB on the other hand has been abused beyond imagination. But in the 1965 war when the ISI suffered an intelligence blackout, it was the IB which was able to extract intelligence across the border. Moreover DG IB, A B Awan was able to convince Sheikh Abdullah to support armed intrusion in the Operation Grandslam. ISI has grown beyond its weak structure and performance in 1965 but this was to show you IB's performance in external intelligence even when its main focus was domestic.

Moreover, IB has been infiltrated by retired army officers whenever military juntas got a chance to do so. On more than once occasion, a retired army officer has been "inducted" in BS-20 and made the DG, working over 4 BS-21 grade PSP officers. DGIB is supposed to be BS-22 officer and manned by PSP officers. Since 1989, it has been occupied less than half of the time by PSP officer. PSP officers are known to have complained a lot about Maj Gen Rafiullah Niazi's induction of retired army officers and a whole lot of "relatives" in the IB.

IB's a domestic intelligence agency and performs admirably in that role even when it is abused for political purposes. ISI's intrusion into IB's purview is should neither appreciated nor be recommended.

Why should u change an organisation conmposed of people from military???
Their should be no problem with a civilian head for a leadership supposed to be capable should not be rejected for not wearing the Khaki.

The CIA has been led by more civilians than Khakis (and no, civilians in the US are no more superior or patriotic compared to their uniformed counterparts than in Pakistan).

As every nefarious activity is associated by nutters to be RAW handywork, then it should be reminded that RAW secretaries have been mostly IPS officers.

SIS (or commonly called MI6) was led initially by uniformed men but since then has been headed by civilians.

MOSSAD cannot be cited as an example for all Israelis serve in the military.
 
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This debate should be left to people who can at least appreciate that intelligence and espionage do not require wearing a uniform.
 
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Sparkle CIA is not military based nor is MI5 as is ISI or INTERSERVICES INTLE AGENCY.....
U have given no resons to base ur statements tht ISI should have a civilian head.
Its like sayin head of army should be a civilians coz audit officiers are civilians.
 
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though the org is very much under the influence of millitery will remain for times to come, But there Are some extremely capable personalities in the civil getup who can contribute to ISI very well. Like for eg former FM Khursheed kasuri .Though once part of Intelligentsia he would have to dismiss all his political activities of course..!
Having said that the MI should be strengthened and groomed in a the way ISI was groomed.
My view
 
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Mujeeb was also Pakistani???

Hi,
who was Ziauddin Butt, i am sure you are aware of him so i don't need to explain why was he stripped of his rank, and try to understand my point, army or not all are Pakistani's
Why ISI which has NO CIVILIANS working for it should be governedby a Civilian?
who says that civilians dont work in ISI ? they even go to 22nd grade as directors

Does Pakistan already have civil intelligence agencies?FIA,IB etc?wats their performance??
FIA is primarily related to Police oriented worked and FIA is more of a domestic intelligence agency not to mention they work under interior ministry which is headed by people like Rehman malik :lol:

No spending 2 years in PMA and giving all ur life to army to defend Pakistan doesnt make u super humans....
if i could show the video of that guard who was trying to extinguish fire on the truck which later on blew him into pieces at the gate of Marriot, yes he was not as loyal as others as he never got a house for his widow along with other incentives, loyalty & sincerity doesnt demand you to be in a military to prove your love for country and courage to save lives.


Why should u change an organisation conmposed of people from military???
You failed to understand my point i clearly said
and if its not viable then there should be a prime agency other than ISI which will be headed by civilians.
Army people are civilians too before selection, NO? or are they born this way? then why cant we have same criteria for other departments try to grasp the essence of my argument don't take it as an insult to army, if we can have an institution which is impartial in its dealings then what is wrong with that ?
 
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In fact, he is saying following :-

ISI chief should be an American or Indian.....:)

How come Pakistanis alway appoint a Pakistani for the job of ISI chief.

Even their agents who can appoint their agents in Foreign and Financial posts cannot post some hand picked in ISI as its chief is from PAKISTAN ARMY.. who have reached to this ranks having been grilled for years in a near-perfect system and he is always a patriot Pakistani
 
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Do we really need to do wht american experts says us to do.

Is ISI working is getting worst while headed by any amry man .NO

they are getting better and better and they have been pain in the a** of CIA thats y they tried many a times to dismental it. But remained very unsucessful. :pakistan::pakistan:
 
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Sparkle CIA is not military based nor is MI5 as is ISI or INTERSERVICES INTLE AGENCY.....
U have given no resons to base ur statements tht ISI should have a civilian head.
Its like sayin head of army should be a civilians coz audit officiers are civilians.


Reason is simple.

It is called center of gravity.

Pakistan's center of gravity is Pakistan Army, so the ISI cheif has to come from Pak Army.

Do you need more explanation or it is suffice?
 
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Actually the request should be:

ISI Chef should be a Civilian and we will except that.
 
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I cannot deal with most verbal vomit being spewed. It is the fate of third world countries like Pakistan, Burma, Sierra Leonne, Somalia and many others that suffer from chronic military rules and where the military junta rules in more than one ways.

The evolution from a military dictatorship to a security state is all but natural and the evolution from a security state to a fascist state can be achieved only under military juntas.


Do tell me if the following spell Pakistan.

Seven characteristics of a National Security State
by Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer

1) The first characteristic of a National Security State is that the military is the highest authority. In a National Security State the military not only guarantees the security of the state against all internal and external enemies, it has enough power to determine the overall direction of the society. In a National Security State the military exerts important influence over political, economic, as well as military affairs.

2) A second defining feature of a National Security State is that political democracy and democratic elections are viewed with suspicion, contempt, or in terms of political expediency. National Security States often maintain an appearance of democracy. However, ultimate power rests with the military or within a broader National Security Establishment.

3) A third characteristic of a National Security State is that the military and related sectors wield substantial political and economic power. They do so in the context of an ideology which stresses that 'freedom" and "development" are possible only when capital is concentrated in the hands of elites.

4) A fourth feature of a National Security State is its obsession with enemies.
There are enemies of the state everywhere. Defending against external and/or internal enemies becomes a leading preoccupation of the state, a distorting factor in the economy, and a major source of national identity and purpose.

5) A fifth ideological foundation of a National Security State is that the enemies of the state are cunning and ruthless. Therefore, any means used to destroy or control these enemies is justified.

6) A sixth characteristic of a National Security State is that it restricts public debate and limits popular participation through secrecy or intimidation. Authentic democracy depends on participation of the people. National Security States limit such participation in a number of ways: They sow fear and thereby narrow the range of public debate; they restrict and distort information; and they define policies in secret and implement those policies through covert channels and clandestine activities. The state justifies such actions through rhetorical pleas of "higher purpose" and vague appeals to "national security."

7) Finally, the church is expected to mobilize its financial, ideological, and theological resources in service to the National Security State.

The 14 Characteristics of Fascism​
by Lawrence Britt

The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6. Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
 
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