Developing our own VLS system ????

[Zarvan]

Well as we are going are looking to buying Frigates from Turkey which may have VLS system. So what if Pakistan wants to develop its own system which can fire both Cruise Missiles and also Air Defense system so how difficult it would be for us or How easy it would be for us to do that ??

And please don't start with the debate that we don't need such ships extra extra.
@Rashid Mahmood @fatman17 @Quwa

 

[truthseeker2010]

Well as we are going are looking to buying Frigates from Turkey which may have VLS system. So what if Pakistan wants to develop its own system which can fire both Cruise Missiles and also Air Defense system so how difficult it would be for us or How easy it would be for us to do that ??

And please don't start with the debate that we don't need such ships extra extra.
@Rashid Mahmood @fatman17 @Quwa

IMO, The main challenge will be to develop the fire control and the search radar systems, and integrating it on the lines of AEGIS, secondly the launch mechanism in the VLS, like hot launch(US) is more complicated than cold launch(chinese, russians).

 

[war&peace]

Basic idea is not so difficult and of course we have to start some-where and see where we end up.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Well as we are going are looking to buying Frigates from Turkey which may have VLS system. So what if Pakistan wants to develop its own system which can fire both Cruise Missiles and also Air Defense system so how difficult it would be for us or How easy it would be for us to do that ??

And please don't start with the debate that we don't need such ships extra extra.
@Rashid Mahmood @fatman17 @Quwa

Developing our own VLS system is not the priority at this point of time.
Developing such advanced system is never cost effective unless you have prospects of exporting them. It involves many industrial requirements, which we presently do not have.
Buying off the shelf system are the better choice.

The Navy is working on various projects, which are not highlighted anywhere, so when the time comes, they will probably be announced or maybe not.

The Turkish ships are in consideration, but the final decision has not been made yet.

The main priority are the 8 Subs and their construction.

A second batch of F22 Batch II is also in consideration.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

When approaching any R&D and local production question, you need to ask, will we generate enough to scale - i.e. number of units - to distribute the R&D cost?

Remember: A weapon system is the cost of labour and materials plus the cost of the technology, which in turn is the cost of R&D. So if it is $120m to develop the VLS system, then that $120m has to be divided by the 12 VLS systems you are buying for your ships. That is $10m plus the $20m to produce and integrate the thing. (note: numbers are made-up).

It would be a great idea to develop in-house if we have all of the competencies readily available to us, but we do not. So in order to develop, we will have to spend some serious cash to build capacity, acquire foreign expertise, and maybe just end up licensing some overseas technology we just can't master in time. Furthermore, if the Navy ends up just capping its surface ship requirement to 4 frigates, then the VLS program would cost us several times than what we had intended.

The best current course is to find an existing VLS program elsewhere, e.g. in China, Turkey or South Africa, and then co-invest in exchange for technology transfer and commercial offsets.

 

[ali_raza]

Developing our own VLS system is not the priority at this point of time.
Developing such advanced system is never cost effective unless you have prospects of exporting them. It involves many industrial requirements, which we presently do not have.
Buying off the shelf system are the better choice.

The Navy is working on various projects, which are not highlighted anywhere, so when the time comes, they will probably be announced or maybe not.

The Turkish ships are in consideration, but the final decision has not been made yet.

The main priority are the 8 Subs and their construction.

A second batch of F22 Batch II is also in consideration.

why not pakistani navy go for atleat 2 heavy ships in class of 6000 tons tht could become comand ships in event of war

When approaching any R&D and local production question, you need to ask, will we generate enough to scale - i.e. number of units - to distribute the R&D cost?

Remember: A weapon system is the cost of labour and materials plus the cost of the technology, which in turn is the cost of R&D. So if it is $120m to develop the VLS system, then that $120m has to be divided by the 12 VLS systems you are buying for your ships. That is $10m plus the $20m to produce and integrate the thing. (note: numbers are made-up).

It would be a great idea to develop in-house if we have all of the competencies readily available to us, but we do not. So in order to develop, we will have to spend some serious cash to build capacity, acquire foreign expertise, and maybe just end up licensing some overseas technology we just can't master in time. Furthermore, if the Navy ends up just capping its surface ship requirement to 4 frigates, then the VLS program would cost us several times than what we had intended.

The best current course is to find an existing VLS program elsewhere, e.g. in China, Turkey or South Africa, and then co-invest in exchange for technology transfer and commercial offsets.

u r right.i faced a similar challenge couple of days back.asi drink one coffe a day in my office.i thought to mave my own coffe machine so that i may save some money.eg one coffe is 1 ruppe.and machine costed me 50 rupees.
but as u said mastering the tachnic is also vital.i end up paying more money and an ugly coffe.lol

 

[Arsalan]

Lolz!
@Zarvan well bro you will mind if i say ALL i have to say in this matter so i will just cut to the chase and make it as short as possible in an attempt to not hurt your feelings. We need ships with VLS? HOW MANY? 4 to 6? or 200 ships? I hope that gives you an idea of what i am trying to say!!! NO NEED TO REINVENT THE WHEEL!!
We wont be looking at more than 8 or MAX 10 (that too is a bit exaggerated) heavier frigates with VLS and they will come not in years to come but in decades to come. So my friend, investing in RnD for VLS is no where on the priority list.

 

[Zarvan]

Lolz!
@Zarvan well bro you will mind if i say ALL i have to say in this matter so i will just cut to the chase and make it as short as possible in an attempt to not hurt your feelings. We need ships with VLS? HOW MANY? 4 to 6? or 200 ships? I hope that gives you an idea of what i am trying to say!!! NO NEED TO REINVENT THE WHEEL!!
We wont be looking at more than 8 or MAX 10 (that too is a bit exaggerated) heavier frigates with VLS and they will come not in years to come but in decades to come. So my friend, investing in RnD for VLS is no where on the priority list.

If Pakistan really thinks that we can even defend ourselves against Indian Navy which in next 10 years will have around 100 major ships and at least 25 Submarines with only 12 Frigates and 14 Submarines than I really wish that Pakistan Navy faces war because only than if Pakistan survives we may wake up and get out of this stupid childish dream.

The way Indian Navy is growing really soon even 24 Surface Ships all having VLS which are capable of firing both cruise and Air Defence Missiles would be hardly enough for us to defend our selves yet alone going for an offense. Pakistan it seem is hell bent on learning it really hard way so be it than.

@Rashid Mahmood

 

[Blue Marlin]

i suspect it would be something along the lines of the korean k-vls. for the purpose of launching cruise missiles for land/sea based targets and anti sub rockets like the red shark.
there would be no need to a develop a vls for the purpose of launching sam's as there are products avaliable for them.

 

[Arsalan]

If Pakistan really thinks that we can even defend ourselves against Indian Navy which in next 10 years will have around 100 major ships and at least 25 Submarines with only 12 Frigates and 14 Submarines than I really wish that Pakistan Navy faces war because only than if Pakistan survives we may wake up and get out of this stupid childish dream.

Because THIS is what we can afford and what we are planning for!!
So yes, it is about time that we wake up from that Childish dream of "money is not a problems" and how everything is all pretty and fine. It is time to roll up our sleeves and first BUILD a nation, a country, one that can support the defense equipment that YOU wish for. Because unfortunately dear, whether you like it or not, the world, the Pakistan military wont be procuring weaponry as per your wishes but as per there budget and requirements. Talk to ANY sensible person and he will tell you what the immediate future holds for Pakistan navy. Let me know if you do find a justification of "building our own VLS" other then satisfying ego!! There are options available, the number we need is NOT 400 no matter whether you like this or not and thanks to Allah that the planning is not in hands of fanboys so they wont be throwing the hard earned money at stupid projects.

The way Indian Navy is growing really soon even 24 Surface Ships all having VLS which are capable of firing both cruise and Air Defence Missiles would be hardly enough for us to defend our selves yet alone going for an offense. Pakistan it seem is hell bent on learning it really hard way so be it than.

@Rashid Mahmood

It is what it is, any brilliant ideas than do share with us!!! Who do you want to finance those nuclear subs and air craft carriers you see in your dreams?

@Zarvan you absolutely have lost sense of reality? \

 

[Zarvan]

Because THIS is what we can afford and what we are planning for!!
So yes, it is about time that we wake up from that Childish dream of "money is not a problems" and how everything is all pretty and fine. It is time to roll up our sleeves and first BUILD a nation, a country, one that can support the defense equipment that YOU wish for. Because unfortunately dear, whether you like it or not, the world, the Pakistan military wont be procuring weaponry as per your wishes but as per there budget and requirements. Talk to ANY sensible person and he will tell you what the immediate future holds for Pakistan navy. Let me know if you do find a justification of "building our own VLS" other then satisfying ego!! There are options available, the number we need is NOT 400 no matter whether you like this or not and thanks to Allah that the planning is not in hands of fanboys so they wont be throwing the hard earned money at stupid projects.


It is what it is, any brilliant ideas than do share with us!!! Who do you want to finance those nuclear subs and air craft carriers you see in your dreams?

@Zarvan you absolutely have lost sense of reality? \

If China wants CPEC really to run than it would have to invest at least 5 to 6 billion dollars in our Navy for next few years. And if we are so short of money than better we surrender and commit suicide than doing something. Because sorry with 12 Frigates and 14 Submarines you can't defend yourself against a Navy which soon is going to have 100 major Ships and 25 Submarines. Secondly if you count the projects we are developing and things and weapons we are procuring and projects in which we are investing if these things are not happening or coming for free than we have money and we are doing good. Navy needs more focus now

 

[Arsalan]

If China wants CPEC really to run than it would have to invest at least 5 to 6 billion dollars in our Navy for next few years. And if we are so short of money than better we surrender and commit suicide than doing something. Because sorry with 12 Frigates and 14 Submarines you can't defend yourself against a Navy which soon is going to have 100 major Ships and 25 Submarines. Secondly if you count the projects we are developing and things and weapons we are procuring and projects in which we are investing if these things are not happening or coming for free than we have money and we are doing good. Navy needs more focus now

Lolz, So just because you think you cannot afford all those fancy toys you are suggesting that we simply give up and surrender the state to enemies with out putting up a fight? these are your words and not mine!!

Grow up, look around you and see the reality. If you cannot do anything to change that for the better there is no point in crying like babies and asking to fetch the stars. This is the problem with our new generation kids, they think that somehow the world should change overnight and they are blessed with all the luxuries and they do not have to do ANYTHING!!

Sir, please, basss kr dain ab!!! Kuda khofi kro koi!!
Majority of our people do not pay taxes, we are really fked up as far as trade balance goes and we are so SHAMLESS that we are asking China to invest!! WOWWW just WOW!!

we have money and we are doing good.

Oh Allah ka bnday,, THAT IS CALLED SETTING YOUR PRIORITIES right!!
Are you sugesting that since we invested in a fighter aircraft that is set to form the back bone, yes, THE BACK BONE of our air force so we can invest in designing and building VLS systems which we wont be buying in bulk anyone. PLEASE!!!

 

[Zarvan]

Lolz, So just because you think you cannot afford all those fancy toys you are suggesting that we simply give up and surrender the state to enemies with out putting up a fight? these are your words and not mine!!

Grow up, look around you and see the reality. If you cannot do anything to change that for the better there is no point in crying like babies and asking to fetch the stars. This is the problem with our new generation kids, they think that somehow the world should change overnight and they are blessed with all the luxuries and they do not have to do ANYTHING!!

Sir, please, basss kr dain ab!!! Kuda khofi kro koi!!
Majority of our people do not pay taxes, we are really fked up as far as trade balance goes and we are so SHAMLESS that we are asking China to invest!! WOWWW just WOW!!


Oh Allah ka bnday,, THAT IS CALLED SETTING YOUR PRIORITIES right!!
Are you sugesting that since we invested in a fighter aircraft that is set to form the back bone, yes, THE BACK BONE of our air force so we can invest in designing and building VLS systems which we wont be buying in bulk anyone. PLEASE!!!

I am not asking to fetching the stars but if you really think we can defend ourselves with only 12 Frigates and 14 Submarines against at least 8 times bigger Indian Navy than good luck with that. Our Navy won't survive in first three days of war with this size difference

 

[Arsalan]

I am not asking to fetching the stars but if you really think we can defend ourselves with only 12 Frigates and 14 Submarines against at least 8 times bigger Indian Navy than good luck with that. Our Navy won't survive in first three days of war with this size difference

I will be GLAD if you can point me out to the place where I said that we can or cannot defend with whatever number of vessels you are quoting!!

Mu question was plain and simple and addressed the need or the lack of it for making a VLS ourselves and mentioned how the LIMITED number required DO NOT CALL for an independent program. All I see is beating about the bush from you with absolutely no logical reasoning and answer all because someone have told you that all those wishes cannot be fulfilled!!

 

[T-123456]

I am not asking to fetching the stars but if you really think we can defend ourselves with only 12 Frigates and 14 Submarines against at least 8 times bigger Indian Navy than good luck with that. Our Navy won't survive in first three days of war with this size difference

You only need second strike capability,the rest is not that important.
Take a look at Israel,small navy but the 6 Dolphin subs make sure that no-one dares to even consider anything stupid.
just make sure your subs are comparable(nuclear missiles) to the Dolphin class of Israel.