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Details of India's 5th Gen AMCA Technology Demonstrator: NGTD

Please stop thinking about kaveri......its dead.
At the best we should make some alterations for use in a drone just for the dry thrust.
All this talk of french help and all wont suffice,everything needs serious money.

India wanted an engine with 600 million dollars investment and that too for a country making first turbofan,lol.Are they smoking weed??I mean 600 million over a period of 10-15 years,possibly more.What sort of engine will u make spending 60 million a year,gullible people all of us to even believe this nonsense.French already offer more than 1 billion euro just to revive the project.

Russians are making newer generation izd 30 engine and one of the su-57 prototype is already flying with it.We should have invested there and used that engine to make a sinle engine larger fighter in future.
I would even suggest trying to reverse engineer the al-31 f atleast.We couldnt even do that and its 30 odd years old tech.Pathetic loudmouths.

HAL is capable of just mk1,mk1a at the moment.Forget a redesigned mk2 and amca.
And again the stupid air force brass has changed the requirements for the mk1a,for god's sake u ppl are flying shitty jaguars,mig-27 and mig-21 and u want the replacing aircraft to have 5 th generation capabilities.God save us.

Then there is news of air force floating tender for equipping 60 odd jagaurs with newer engines,possibly honeywell engine to replace the older rolls royce adour engines.Each engine will cost 6-7 million dollars.We already spent money on darin 3 upgrade of jaguars.Why the hell not buy more mki's directly from russians to replace these with more multirole jets?

HAL has made tejas a competitive small fighter to replace the old junk air force has currently,just focus on that rather than wasting time and money on useless things and last but not the least stop being motor mouths.

I am convinced there is too much corruption at the highest level as no level headed person can support this archaic policies of especially indian air force.Indian navy has done far far better in respect.



When japanese cannot fund their fighter,who thinks indians can?
Stupid rhetoric,tired of these loudmouth HAL people leaking their wet dreams on a daily basis.


Are you sure you are an Indian? You don’t sound like a typical Indian here that make outrageous claims.. soon, you will be labelled as a Pakistani.

I hope you realize why non-Indians view Indians as bragging too much while accomplish little. The reality is that if Indians mostly think like you, India would be a different country today.
 
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Are you sure you are an Indian? You don’t sound like a typical Indian here that make outrageous claims.. soon, you will be labelled as a Pakistani.

I hope you realize why non-Indians view Indians as bragging too much while accomplish little. The reality is that if Indians mostly think like you, India would be a different country today.

I am grand daddy of vocal indians here....look at my negatives.
I am here for my passion about technology and defence and not to score brownie points based on nationality.

The reality is that if Indians mostly think like you, India would be a different country today.

Most of indians, pakistanis and chinese here barring few are either

1)Are trolls
2)People who genuinely know nothing about defence
3)Maybe some are paid too.

This has especially increased in last 2-3 years,this forum used to be good.Now its mud slinging from all sides.Modi has contibuted to this false bravado probably.
 
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Please stop thinking about kaveri......its dead.
At the best we should make some alterations for use in a drone just for the dry thrust.
All this talk of french help and all wont suffice,everything needs serious money.

India wanted an engine with 600 million dollars investment and that too for a country making first turbofan,lol.Are they smoking weed??I mean 600 million over a period of 10-15 years,possibly more.What sort of engine will u make spending 60 million a year,gullible people all of us to even believe this nonsense.French already offer more than 1 billion euro just to revive the project.

Russians are making newer generation izd 30 engine and one of the su-57 prototype is already flying with it.We should have invested there and used that engine to make a sinle engine larger fighter in future.
I would even suggest trying to reverse engineer the al-31 f atleast.We couldnt even do that and its 30 odd years old tech.Pathetic loudmouths.

HAL is capable of just mk1,mk1a at the moment.Forget a redesigned mk2 and amca.
And again the stupid air force brass has changed the requirements for the mk1a,for god's sake u ppl are flying shitty jaguars,mig-27 and mig-21 and u want the replacing aircraft to have 5 th generation capabilities.God save us.

Then there is news of air force floating tender for equipping 60 odd jagaurs with newer engines,possibly honeywell engine to replace the older rolls royce adour engines.Each engine will cost 6-7 million dollars.We already spent money on darin 3 upgrade of jaguars.Why the hell not buy more mki's directly from russians to replace these with more multirole jets?

HAL has made tejas a competitive small fighter to replace the old junk air force has currently,just focus on that rather than wasting time and money on useless things and last but not the least stop being motor mouths.

I am convinced there is too much corruption at the highest level as no level headed person can support this archaic policies of especially indian air force.Indian navy has done far far better in respect.



When japanese cannot fund their fighter,who thinks indians can?
Stupid rhetoric,tired of these loudmouth HAL people leaking their wet dreams on a daily basis.
Fact is that India spends more on buying weapons than on R&D. It is like planting a peanut and expecting a jackfruit tree.
 
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Fact is that India spends more on buying weapons than on R&D. It is like planting a peanut and expecting a jackfruit tree.

There is no problem in that too.We not even doing that properly.
Ok how much time do u need to evaluate and decide which rifle for example u need??
Same goes for missiles,engines and other things.

If money is there why the hell wait 10 odd years to just decide??
MMRCA tender was floated 10 years back,modi has been in power for 4 years too now.
0 delivery and just tall stupid and shitty claims.

1 thing we have to endure.We are much behind other advanced countries in manufacturing at the moment.So indian military has to backup the local units which are performing above average and stop expecting the local material to be world beating so soon.Instead make those above average things in much greater quantities.Things will improve in next 20 years.But if u keep on insisting for a system which is world beating every time u buy u will end up where we are today.

Chinese did this patiently and now in the last 10 years they have really started innovating.
We have an economy that is 1/4 of china so how can we even dream to compete?Just accept the fact and support local manufacturing.

Say no to tejas mk2 and amca and just build mk1 and mk1a in numbers first.
 
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There is no problem in that too.We not even doing that properly.
Ok how much time do u need to evaluate and decide which rifle for example u need??
Same goes for missiles,engines and other things.

If money is there why the hell wait 10 odd years to just decide??
MMRCA tender was floated 10 years back,modi has been in power for 4 years too now.
0 delivery and just tall stupid and shitty claims.

1 thing we have to endure.We are much behind other advanced countries in manufacturing at the moment.So indian military has to backup the local units which are performing above average and stop expecting the local material to be world beating so soon.Instead make those above average things in much greater quantities.Things will improve in next 20 years.But if u keep on insisting for a system which is world beating every time u buy u will end up where we are today.

Chinese did this patiently and now in the last 10 years they have really started innovating.
We have an economy that is 1/4 of china so how can we even dream to compete?Just accept the fact and support local manufacturing.

Say no to tejas mk2 and amca and just build mk1 and mk1a in numbers first.
Indian political class is absolute garbage which runs the country with no long term strategy watsoever. The very fact we cannot design and produce a gun speaks volumes about our discipline. Military is just interested in pocketing commission and drdo is interesting in saving their own jobs end result is stagnation. We need determined leadership, long term investment and professionalism in driving these projects.
 
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Indian political class is absolute garbage which runs the country with no long term strategy watsoever. The very fact we cannot design and produce a gun speaks volumes about our discipline. Military is just interested in pocketing commission and drdo is interesting in saving their own jobs end result is stagnation. We need determined leadership, long term investment and professionalism in driving these projects.

I have started believing that democracy is not the best mode of governance,at least not for country like us.
 
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I have started believing that democracy is not the best mode of governance,at least not for country like us.

India need a determined pro growth leadership and stay in power without the fear of losing power so it can endure the growing pains for a generation or two. But most Indian here like to brag that its superior over China because of its democracy. But in fact its democracy that its stymied Indian growth.

Look at South Korea and Taiwan. They were not democracy when they were even wealthier than India today. If they were never put through a fast pace growth phase under dictatorship, they would still be as poir as India today. As matter of fact, they were much poorer after WWII as compare to India. But look at the difference today.
 
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Please stop thinking about kaveri......its dead.
At the best we should make some alterations for use in a drone just for the dry thrust.
All this talk of french help and all wont suffice,everything needs serious money.

India wanted an engine with 600 million dollars investment and that too for a country making first turbofan,lol.Are they smoking weed??I mean 600 million over a period of 10-15 years,possibly more.What sort of engine will u make spending 60 million a year,gullible people all of us to even believe this nonsense.French already offer more than 1 billion euro just to revive the project.

Russians are making newer generation izd 30 engine and one of the su-57 prototype is already flying with it.We should have invested there and used that engine to make a sinle engine larger fighter in future.
I would even suggest trying to reverse engineer the al-31 f atleast.We couldnt even do that and its 30 odd years old tech.Pathetic loudmouths.

HAL is capable of just mk1,mk1a at the moment.Forget a redesigned mk2 and amca.
And again the stupid air force brass has changed the requirements for the mk1a,for god's sake u ppl are flying shitty jaguars,mig-27 and mig-21 and u want the replacing aircraft to have 5 th generation capabilities.God save us.

Then there is news of air force floating tender for equipping 60 odd jagaurs with newer engines,possibly honeywell engine to replace the older rolls royce adour engines.Each engine will cost 6-7 million dollars.We already spent money on darin 3 upgrade of jaguars.Why the hell not buy more mki's directly from russians to replace these with more multirole jets?

HAL has made tejas a competitive small fighter to replace the old junk air force has currently,just focus on that rather than wasting time and money on useless things and last but not the least stop being motor mouths.

I am convinced there is too much corruption at the highest level as no level headed person can support this archaic policies of especially indian air force.Indian navy has done far far better in respect.



When japanese cannot fund their fighter,who thinks indians can?
Stupid rhetoric,tired of these loudmouth HAL people leaking their wet dreams on a daily basis.
I think it's more about the lack of competence in MoD and political circles than the fault of IAF. There's no one who can take a learned decision after an IAF proposal.

Corruption is of course a factor.
 
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I think it's more about the lack of competence in MoD and political circles than the fault of IAF. There's no one who can take a learned decision after an IAF proposal.

Corruption is of course a factor.

No,they are being too rigid.They need to accept the fact that we are a middle income country in transition rather than behave like we can spend like western countries or china.
 
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India need a determined pro growth leadership and stay in power without the fear of losing power so it can endure the growing pains for a generation or two. But most Indian here like to brag that its superior over China because of its democracy. But in fact its democracy that its stymied Indian growth.

Look at South Korea and Taiwan. They were not democracy when they were even wealthier than India today. If they were never put through a fast pace growth phase under dictatorship, they would still be as poir as India today. As matter of fact, they were much poorer after WWII as compare to India. But look at the difference today.
I'm no fan of conventional "democracy" being touted as the ultimate governance.
But countries like China and India, especially India being a hundred times more diverse, can't do that without the risk of either a rotten ideology creeping to become the ultimate authority, or the authority committing mass murder, or both.

There are better and safer ways to reform India within the current structure. If those aren't taken, it's best to forget an extreme gamble. I've no faith in my people to pull it off with progress and progress alone in mind.

Unless I become the emperor of course.
I'm nice.
 
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Please stop thinking about kaveri......its dead.
At the best we should make some alterations for use in a drone just for the dry thrust.
All this talk of french help and all wont suffice,everything needs serious money.

India wanted an engine with 600 million dollars investment and that too for a country making first turbofan,lol.Are they smoking weed??I mean 600 million over a period of 10-15 years,possibly more.What sort of engine will u make spending 60 million a year,gullible people all of us to even believe this nonsense.French already offer more than 1 billion euro just to revive the project.

Russians are making newer generation izd 30 engine and one of the su-57 prototype is already flying with it.We should have invested there and used that engine to make a sinle engine larger fighter in future.
I would even suggest trying to reverse engineer the al-31 f atleast.We couldnt even do that and its 30 odd years old tech.Pathetic loudmouths.

HAL is capable of just mk1,mk1a at the moment.Forget a redesigned mk2 and amca.
And again the stupid air force brass has changed the requirements for the mk1a,for god's sake u ppl are flying shitty jaguars,mig-27 and mig-21 and u want the replacing aircraft to have 5 th generation capabilities.God save us.

Then there is news of air force floating tender for equipping 60 odd jagaurs with newer engines,possibly honeywell engine to replace the older rolls royce adour engines.Each engine will cost 6-7 million dollars.We already spent money on darin 3 upgrade of jaguars.Why the hell not buy more mki's directly from russians to replace these with more multirole jets?

HAL has made tejas a competitive small fighter to replace the old junk air force has currently,just focus on that rather than wasting time and money on useless things and last but not the least stop being motor mouths.

I am convinced there is too much corruption at the highest level as no level headed person can support this archaic policies of especially indian air force.Indian navy has done far far better in respect.



When japanese cannot fund their fighter,who thinks indians can?
Stupid rhetoric,tired of these loudmouth HAL people leaking their wet dreams on a daily basis.

If it truly were dead GTRE would not be pursuing it. But they clearly are, soooo....:coffee:

Turbofans are one of the most finicky components in a fighter and you don't just give up on it just because it hasn't produced regular results, clearly the Chinese are a very good example.
We can't just depend on others to provide us with materials, which is exactly why we are making 2nd and 3rd gen SCBs and Smecma is auditing the Kaveri prototypes right now.

Secondly, the Kaveri's funding has not ended it is still ongoing.

Foreign expertise key to fire up India's jets
While India has managed to create a fourth-generation jet fighter, it is yet to perfect a low-bypass turbofan (LBTF) engine that can power an aircraft of this class. Indeed, without mastering contemporary jet engine technology, India’s objective of becoming a true aerospace power will remain unfulfilled.

As such, after years of domestic effort by the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) to develop the Kaveri LBTF engine on its own, India is now turning towards foreign handholding to modify the existing design in order to make it flightworthy.

While the current collaborative effort is limited in scope, a much bigger programme is needed to bring India up to speed in jet engine technology. It must be noted that China is investing very heavily in this domain and will likely steal a march over India if the latter does not do the same.

After some Rs 2,133 crores in expenditure and a couple of decades of development, GTRE’s Kaveri has not yet met its design goals in their entirety. As opposed to a targeted wet thrust level of 81 kilo newtons (KN), the current standard of preparation (SoP) prototypes manage 7-8% less than that figure.

SoP prototypes have achieved dry thrust goals though having demonstrated about 52 KN without afterburner. However, current Kaveri SoP prototypes are not flight capable given their tendency to stall in certain regimes, besides other reliability issues. It has been clear for a while now that foreign expertise is needed to modify the existing SoP level design to make it flightworthy.

This is precisely why the DRDO has engaged France’s Safran Aircraft Engines (Snecma) to perform a design audit on the Kaveri. At the moment, Snecma is preparing a detailed report outlining the design changes needed to create flightworthy Kaveri prototypes.

Once Snecma’s report is ready, GTRE expects to get the go-ahead for the next phase of work that will involve modifying existing SoP prototypes and testing them, with a view to creating new prototypes that can be integrated with an actual flight capable airframe. Snecma will also be a consultant for aircraft integration activities.

As it turns out, GTRE is yet to access some Rs 500 crore in funds that were approved years ago by New Delhi for aircraft integration work as part of the overall outlay for the Kaveri programme. Now that GTRE is looking to actually fly a Tejas test vehicle using a Kaveri engine, it is likely to write to the Centre to disburse this sum.

It seems GTRE will first incorporate Snecma’s recommended design changes onto three existing SoP Kaveri prototypes called K6, K8 and K9. These will be tested both on GTRE’s testbed and on a flying testbed at the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Russia.

After which, a few refined prototypes will be built that are likely to meet the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification’s (CEMILAC) reliability standards and receive certification for a limited number of flights on board a Tejas class aircraft.

One of these engines post-CEMILAC clearance will be integrated with a Tejas prototype and some 30-40 sorties will be conducted to demonstrate India’s ability to build a LBTF in the 70-80 KN class. GTRE expects to accomplish all this by Aero India 2019.

Greater thrust needed

However, an engine with this level of thrust is inadequate to power even current combat capable Tejas variants, not to mention future ones. Indeed, the Tejas MK-2 design, given its much greater maximum take-off weight will need a jet engine in the 90 KN wet thrust class.

It is felt that the work done on the Kaveri programme should be taken forward by enlisting Snecma’s help to create a Kaveri-derived engine in the 90 KN category that would be compatible with the Tejas. To be compatible with the Tejas, this engine would have to retain the dimensions of the existing Kaveri design with compressor and turbine sizes remaining unchanged.

So, the chief way in which a similar sized derivative can be uprated to 90 KN would be by having an engine core that can withstand much higher turbine entry temperatures. This, in turn, would require the core to be made up of different materials, such as next generation titanium alloys, from what make up the current Kaveri engine core called Kabini.

This undertaking will not prove cheap though. Dr K Tamilmani, former Director General of DRDO’s Aeronautics cluster, estimates that this effort may cost Rs 10,000 crores and take a decade to complete if work began now.

However, given that India is likely to import engines worth several multiples of that figure in the next 15 years or so, the expense could well be worth it, since the expertise gained could allow India to indigenise several classes of jet engines, besides delivering an indigenous LBTF for the Indian Air Force’s Tejas fleet.

Incidentally, the Chinese have already understood the critical importance of being able to design and build modern jet engines and have apparently engaged thousands of technical personnel in a multi-billion dollar effort to achieve the same.

https://www.deccanherald.com/amp?params=LzIwMTcvMDQvMTkvNTg0NTIz

Japan also has a lesser defence budget than India.

I am sorry but your comment seems rather presumptuous.
I am far more inclined to believe the far more experienced people at IAF and DRDO.
 
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Turbofans are one of the most finicky components in a fighter and you don't just give up on it just because it hasn't produced regular results, clearly the Chinese are a very good example.
We can't just depend on others to provide us with materials, which is exactly why we are making 2nd and 3rd gen SCBs and Smecma is auditing the Kaveri prototypes right now.

Secondly, the Kaveri's funding has not ended it is still ongoing.

1)Check the amount of money french are demanding to make it work.We can't pay 1 billion euros,time will tell
2)Sure turbofans are tricky.So who told them to start off with variable cycle engine instead of normal one?
3)Believing what GTRE/HAL/DRDO says is pretty stupid when we know they thrive on contracts regarding screwdriver jobs.

Kaveri wasa good effort but was simply too under budgeted to have an impact,that was my point.
And starting 10000(figure of speech)more projects simultaneously will lead to further shortage of funds and same cycle will repeat with us losing another 20 years.

So i am all for engine........provided we put full efforts not puny timpass efforts with low funding.
Money should be sanctioned asap and work should start.
 
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1)Check the amount of money french are demanding to make it work.We can't pay 1 billion euros,time will tell
2)Sure turbofans are tricky.So who told them to start off with variable cycle engine instead of normal one?
3)Believing what GTRE/HAL/DRDO says is pretty stupid when we know they thrive on contracts regarding screwdriver jobs.

Kaveri wasa good effort but was simply too under budgeted to have an impact,that was my point.
And starting 10000(figure of speech)more projects simultaneously will lead to further shortage of funds and same cycle will repeat with us losing another 20 years.

So i am all for engine........provided we put full efforts not puny timpass efforts with low funding.
Money should be sanctioned asap and work should start.

You know what mate !! The govt instututions in India dont have the freedom to take decesions like private companies do. There is long list of administrative procedures which the govt institutions need to carry out before taking decesions. We need tp fix the beurocratic hurdles before putting the entire blame on these institutuins. You get taken for a ride by CAG, CBI and Court and over that the Parlimentary comittee nick picks about every right and wrong decesions they have made.

You can be productive only in a fearless environment !! Despite that what these institutions have acheived, is an effort worth the praise.
 
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You can be productive only in a fearless environment !! Despite that what these institutions have acheived, is an effort worth the praise.

I agree,read the last paragraph.
All i want is for them to focus on work at hand and not take my unnecessary new projects.
 
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1)Check the amount of money french are demanding to make it work.We can't pay 1 billion euros,time will tell
2)Sure turbofans are tricky.So who told them to start off with variable cycle engine instead of normal one?
3)Believing what GTRE/HAL/DRDO says is pretty stupid when we know they thrive on contracts regarding screwdriver jobs.

Kaveri wasa good effort but was simply too under budgeted to have an impact,that was my point.
And starting 10000(figure of speech)more projects simultaneously will lead to further shortage of funds and same cycle will repeat with us losing another 20 years.

So i am all for engine........provided we put full efforts not puny timpass efforts with low funding.
Money should be sanctioned asap and work should start.

1. I think the news was that the French were going to invest a billion € into the Kaveri project as per the €4 billion Rafale offsets not the other way round.
As of now, DRDO and SNECMA are in fact busy with Kaveri as revealed in the joint press statement during President Macron's visit to India 2 months ago.

2. We couldn't risk being outstripped by every other nation engrossed in making turbofans. Going for a VCE was imho a wise choice, imagine if we succeeded in a conventional turbofan at the same pace as the current Kaveri and then if DRDO says they want to do a VCE engine with similar power, imagine the hurdles then.

3. They have their faults but let's remember that
they have also given us a $hit ton of successful products as well, it's just that we like to discuss and then over discuss the failures.
And if the CAG audits have revealed anything their incompetence is just as easily visible as their successes.
So let's not blindly bandwagon on the DRDO hate train as the disparity is in their favour.

Again, the funding for Kaveri hasn't stopped, and the work has only just picked up speed after the conclusion of the Rafale deal.

As for 10,000 other projects.
People might not realise this but drdo is among the largest military R&D organisations in the world. They can in fact spare money and manpower for 100 different projects all at the same time. Yes, they have a dearth of funding for some projects but lets also remember that it is fallacious to compare the dolllars spent for similar projects in the west as they will be costlier anyhow.
We have gotten things done far cheaper in the past and Kaveri should not be any different.

The only thing hindering DRDO and other agencies is that they are subject to the whims of different ruling parties in place at a particular time.
Tejas' delay for example can be atributed to the MoD of 2010 when they idiotically and prematurely concluded the LCA contracts before ADA could even freeze the final design.
Who does that....:fie:
 
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