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Destruction of Egypts airforce through the frustrated eyes of pilot

Yar I was a part of that war if they would have coordinated the air attacks against Isreal they could have won. we had pilots in Egypt and in Syria but orders were orders. I hope you can understand I cannot say anything which is not in the books( big reason behind it US).That might give you a little clue.
The day Isreal attacked most of the pilots did'nt take off PAF had given strict orders not to fly we had our own problems being there. Funny thing is that I will got caught because we were speaking Punjabi and that is why Orders came from above to stay as instructors. in the book it says that PAF pilots were not present when the attack took place, but they were. In syria things were different at that time MM alam was there with me as an observer. I dont understand why does'nt the PAF give recognition to pilots who have done more than Sattar Alvi, specially Arif ( Moota) 100 times better than Sattar in every aspect and many more did a fantastic job, Every time Isreali's were outmanuvered and on the first sign they bugged out, reason getting shotdown by a syrian pilot was an insult to there egos, knowing that they might be Pakistani pilots that is why they tried to get Sattar into a trap and got them selves shot down.
Another thing the attack was quick that only a few took off with no Dog fight skills, they were trained to bomb and return not dog fight, That is why we were called to train them but before we did things had already ended.
how can you train a bunch of people who prade in an Air conditioned prade square 2 miles by 2 miles, everything for them was so comfy that we did'nt even know where to start how to make them into fighters remember not everyone can be a fighter pilot you need to have a heart like a Lion ( Do or die but never say why) . One of the most indicipline Air Forces I had ever seen, yes there were good pilots like Maj Auzgaar always ready to take on a fight but not all. Now look at them they are tuff and excellent fighter pilots not because USA helped them in given them good planes because we the PAF made a solid base from which they could start, till today we have turkish, egyptian pilots in 9 Sqd and 11 sqd who come train and go back and same goes for the PAF our pilots go there and train them.
NOW THE OFFICIAL STORY

Post-haste summons for volunteers found an eager band of sixteen PAF fighter pilots on their way to the Middle East, in the midst of the 1973 Ramadan war. After a gruelling Peshawar-Karachi-Baghdad flight on a PAF Fokker, they were whisked off to Damascus in a Syrian jet. Upon arrival, half the batch was told to stay back in Syria while the rest were earmarked for Egypt. By the time the PAF batch reached Cairo, Egypt had agreed to a cease-fire; it was therefore decided that they would continue as instructors. But in Syria it was another story.

The batch in Syria was made up of pilots who were already serving there on deputation (except one), but had been repatriated before the war. Now they were back in familiar surroundings as well as familiar aircraft, the venerable MiG-21. They were posted to No 67 squadron, 'Alpha' Detachment (all PAF). Hasty checkouts were immediately followed by serious business of Air Defence Alert scrambles and Combat Air Patrols from the air base at Dumayr.

Syria had not agreed to a ceasefire, since Israeli operations in Golan were continuing at a threatening pace. Israeli Air Force missions included interdiction under top cover, well supported by intense radio jamming as the PAF pilots discovered. The PAF formation using the call-sign "Shahbaz" was formidable in size -- all of eight aircraft. Shahbaz soon came to stand out as one that couldn't be messed with, in part because its tactics were innovative and bold. Survival, however, in a jammed-radio environment was concern number one. As a precaution, the Pakistanis decided to switch to Urdu for fear of being monitored in English. Suspicions were confirmed during one patrol, when healthy Punjabi invectives hurled on radio got them wondering if Mossad had recruited a few Khalsas for the job!

After several months of sporadic activity, it seemed that hostilities were petering out. While the Shahbaz patrols over Lebanon and Syria had diminished in frequency, routine training sorties started to register a rise. Under these conditions it was a surprise when on the afternoon of 26th April 1974, the siren blasted from the air-shafts of the underground bunker. Backgammon boards were pushed aside and the "qehva" session was interrupted as all eight pilots rushed to their MiGs; they were airborne within minutes. From Dumayr to Beirut, then along the Mediterranean coast till Sidon, and a final leg eastwards, skirting Damascus and back to base -- this was the usual patrol, flown at an altitude of 6 km.

The limited fuel of their early model MiG--21F permitted just a 30 minutes sortie; this was almost over when ground radar blurted out on the radio that two bogeys (unidentified aircraft) were approaching from the southerly direction ie Israel. At this stage fuel was low and an engagement was the least preferred option. Presented with a fait accompli, the leader of the formation called a defensive turn into the bogeys. Just then heavy radio jamming started, sounding somewhat similar to the "takka tak" at our meat joints, only more shrill. While the formation was gathering itself after the turn, two Israeli F-4E Phantoms sped past almost head-on, seemingly unwilling to engage. Was it a bait?

Flt Lt Sattar Alvi, now the rear-most in the formation, was still adjusting after the hard turn when he caught sight of two Mirage-III-CJ zooming into them from far below. With no way of warning the formation of the impending disaster, he instinctively decided to handle them alone. Peeling away from his formation, he turned hard into the Mirages so that one of them overshot. Against the other, he did a steep reversal dropping his speed literally to zero. (it takes some guts to let eight tons of metal hang up in unfriendly air!) The result was that within a few seconds the second Mirage filled his gun-sight, the star of David and all. While Sattar worried about having to concentrate for precious seconds in aiming and shooting, the lead Mirage started to turn around to get Sattar. Thinking that help was at hand, the target Mirage decided to accelerate away. A quick-witted Sattar reckoned that a missile shot would be just right for the range his target had opened up to. A pip of a button later, a K13 heat-seeker sped off towards the tail of the escaping Mirage. Sattar recollects that it wasn't as much an Israeli aircraft as a myth that seemed to explode in front of him. (The letter 'J' in Mirage-IIICJ stood for 'Jewish', it may be noted.) He was tempted to watch the flaming metal rain down, but with the other Mirage lurking around and fuel down to a few hundred litres, he decided to exit.

Dear Mr. Murad, Thank you for sharing such rare details.
It meant a lot to me, first of all because I'm PAF fan and secondly because this part of PAF history was mostly ignored. Knowing that PAF pilots did flew during Arab Israeli war, only boost the Intuition.
If possible please tell us more about other day to day activities during your stay in Syria plus adventures of other less known pilots.
You mentioned 'we had our own problems being there' I suppose those were related to language and working with rules of foreign army, perhaps! If not than please, tell us what ever is possible.
I think at some point war history must be made public and in a way it is the right of the people to know various accounts of history.
Knowing it first hand is very exciting feeling in it self.
Infect, govt. should make documentries of our military history just like history channel and our film industry should use various accounts and individuals as subject.
For instance your life is full of such accounts which can be used as good subjects for movies which will be entertainment, plus learning history, plus commercial.
Specially, the khalsa on radio, can be a good subject!!!
If there were no PAF pilots, no arab would have realised what language is it! So in a way Arabs fought against a covert nexus of India and Israel.
 
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Pakistan was very well armed by the USA but it did not prevent the fiasco of 1971.

Not even close to fitting in with the rest of the analogies and the "man behind the machine matters" argument.

The dynamics behind the 1971 war set it apart from a lot of other conflicts.

The "man behind the machine" argument is in fact the one that Murad has made with regards to the Israelis and Arabs, in that when it came to engaging with well trained Pakistani pilots, the Israelis had nowhere close to the success they did with the Arabs.

And while I completely agree with Energon that the Israelis have done a tremendous amount with the resources they have (I have posted an article talking about how they have the highest number of scientists, doctors, engineers etc. per capita in the world), I also agree with Murad in that the Israelis would not have been able to achieve the sort of success they have had they not had the support of the US - both in resources and technology.

All credit to them though for making the most of what the US gave them, because as we see, Egypt has done precious little with an equivalent amount of US aid (if not technology).
 
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Having worked in the Arab world for a few years, my own observation is that in the Middle Eastern countries, what matters most is what you are ( you family connections) and less what you are capable of. Alas it is true for Pakistan as well, albeit to a lesser extent.

Only way a nation can succeed whether in war or in any field is when "Merit" is given precedence over every thing else when it comes to promotions. Middle East in particular and muslim world in general has to get out of the nepotism way of promotions.

Main problem with the thirld world is not so much about material resources; Middle East has more resources than most countries in the world; but manpower resource. Pakistan was lucky to have produced Dr AQ Khan, Dr Samar Mubarakmand, Prof Abdus Salam and a few others. Who knows how many AQ Khans would have been, had they not been denied the chance due to lack of right family connections?.

PAF was also fortunate in having Air Marshal Asghar Khan and Air Marshal Noor Khan at the start.
IMO main problem with Arab Armies as in all other fields is that merit is given a very low priority. Probable cause of the Arab armies bad showing in the wars against Israel is the lack of capable leadership more than anything else.
 
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Mr. Niaz, Every bit of your post is true.
From Maghrib till Bahrain, I know it is either your connection or money which matters.
Egypt could be a classic example of it.
Pakistan is no exception but the situation is at a state where it can be corrected fast. e.g. The previous rule. corruption was clearly clipped down.
However, you may always find many individuals even in Arab society who have came forward by virtue of their money but are very enlightened and moderates and helping.
Other thing which you have said is also true if all Pakistanis had been given opportunities than it would be very different world for us.
Alas, life has been mostly cruel for Pakistanis but people like you and me will keep strugling in our way for the betterment in the situation and say Al-hamdullilah in all circumstances. Infect, I learned this from very Arabs.
Arabs are the blessed nation or perhaps they are lucky to be living in blessed land. The Land of prophets.
 
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Sir Murad i got you in this picture..

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where did you get them:lol: So this means you know who I am by now:oops: here you go BATMAN
 
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In the second photo 2 fighters are taking off , one got shot before he took off the other managed to get away.
 
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where did you get them:lol: So this means you know who I am by now:oops: here you go BATMAN

No Sir, I cannot understand anything more than it is explained at the end of few pictures.
I certainly don't know name of PAF pilots participated in Arab-Israeli war.

It would be very kind of some one if he/she can update wikipedia in respect to PAF role in Arab-Israeli war.

Second picture you have explained by yourself, I understand that it was Egyptian Air force attacking some Israeli airstrip and raider most likely shot both of them, one on the ground and second in the air.

3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th are most likely Israeli armored Vehicles and their bases, but I don't trust my guess.

9th Picture is a disintegrating Israeli mirage but I don't understand how the picture was taken and why the explosion is missing.

picture 10 is Iraqi or Egyptian mirage off loading, its belly.

picture 11 are mig 21 from some Arab contry but who is flying them is not known.
 
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No Sir, I cannot understand anything more than it is explained at the end of few pictures.
I certainly don't know name of PAF pilots participated in Arab-Israeli war.

It would be very kind of some one if he/she can update wikipedia in respect to PAF role in Arab-Israeli war.

Second picture you have explained by yourself, I understand that it was Egyptian Air force attacking some Israeli airstrip and raider most likely shot both of them, one on the ground and second in the air.

3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th are most likely Israeli armored Vehicles and their bases, but I don't trust my guess.

9th Picture is a disintegrating Israeli mirage but I don't understand how the picture was taken and why the explosion is missing.

picture 10 is Iraqi or Egyptian mirage off loading, its belly.

picture 11 are mig 21 from some Arab contry but who is flying them is not known.

Put this stuff in wikipedia and people are going to cange it specially our israeli brothers. The first one will be PAF.
 
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sir, could you please share some of your experiences with us in the indo-pak arena? I'm sure everyone would be delighted to listen.
 
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sir, could you please share some of your experiences with us in the indo-pak arena? I'm sure everyone would be delighted to listen.

Yes I would love to but this will not be a appropriate thead , I will put it on the tread ( History of PAF ). Just give you a glimps of my mission and them I will right the whole thing . or in other sense a teaser.
I was commanding 9 SQD in 1979 and we got new Cammeras for our mirages.
Base commander was Air cdre Hakim later the ACM.
he told me and Naeem Atta to go over Jaisalmer IAf and take photos of the base , we had mirages at that time in 9SQD. We made it to the base took photographs and saw 2 Mig21 Bis taking off comming for us. You will not belive what I did the 2 IAF pilots would have thought this guy is crazy:what:. luckly one of the pilots became my best friend we did ASCS in Maxwell AFB in USA togather it was very intersting how we both met and how we knew that it was him and he knew it was I.
 
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