'Designed In India' The Focus As Defence Procurement Rules Change

[Dungeness]

@Dungeness

Make in India is a umbrella term. With design in India as a part of it. Buy and Make, etc.

They've been working on ways to nurture the upcoming private firms, especially the small-medium firms who dont have deep pockets(but might have innovative ideas) get a foothold in this sector.

Yes, those "ToT" or assembling work given to various public sector companies have gone to waste. Because they never felt the need, or urgency to do anything with it, they just wait for the next contract to hit their desk. That's the culture India has nurtured all this time, this is the exactly the culture India is trying to get away from.

I may have missed the the target too. I thought it was about the state owned organizations. Anyway, it is a positive move to get private sectors involved in defense industries. I think Chinese has also just granted permission to many private companies to enter defense industries.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

I may have missed the the target too. I thought it was about the state owned organizations. Anyway, it is a positive move to get private sectors involved in defense industries. I think Chinese has also just granted permission to many private companies to enter defense industries.

No sort of innovation, or efficiency will come out of India if it keeps self cocooning public firms in their respective sectors by them self. All of them need a fire under their *** to preform, or die out like Hindustan Motors(public auto company). So far most of them have been working with little to no urgency, because their jobs and future contracts were secure(because they were the only ones to do it). This methodology has given mediocre results, thankfully, the status quo is slowly changing.

Make in India benefits the public sector as well, but now it'll benefit and create their future competitors too.

 

[Dungeness]

No sort of innovation, or efficiency will come out of India if it keeps self cocooning public firms in their respective sectors by them self. All of them need a fire under their *** to preform, or die out like Hindustan Motors(public auto company). So far most of them have been working with little to no urgency, because their jobs and future contracts were secure(because they were the only ones to do it). This methodology has given mediocre results, thankfully, the status quo is slowly changing.

Make in India benefits the public sector as well, but now it'll benefit and create their future competitors too.

This brought up an interesting point. As you know, so far, all achievements on defense sectors in China are from the state owned companies, like AVIC, NORINCO, etc. My question is why Indian public defense sectors can not produce results like their Chinese counterparts? Because of lack of accountability?

 

[Water Car Engineer]

This brought up an interesting point. As you know, so far, all achievements on defense sectors in China are from the state owned companies, like AVIC, NORINCO, etc. My question is why Indian public defense sectors can not produce results like their Chinese counterparts? Because of lack of accountability?

There are few, like ISRO that are doing pretty good. But certain companies like OFB have consistently been giving mediocre results, and the previous governments seem to not care. So if the top doesnt seem to care, why should they see the necessity to change their habits? Their jobs are safe no matter what they do. They rather lobby against private firms entering the sector and gain contracts they usually get, than actually compete, which is unheard of for them.

 

[Nilgiri]

All those slogan after slogan remind me of old days of China that had campaign after campaign. Some member tries to turn this into China famine discussion, and I will respectfully avoid.

Its not just slogans. If just "design in india" is announced with nothing else, then you got a point. But there is much policy being conceptualised, implemented and refined behind the words.

 

[dadeechi]

This brought up an interesting point. As you know, so far, all achievements on defense sectors in China are from the state owned companies, like AVIC, NORINCO, etc. My question is why Indian public defense sectors can not produce results like their Chinese counterparts? Because of lack of accountability?

1) Labor Unions who do not want to work. Assured job for life

2) Low meritorious workforce due to Reservations (affirmative action policies)

3) No concern for customer needs but assured contracts from them

4) Assured spoon feeding and hand holding by Suppliers

5) Assured Budgets to support them from the Government

 

[Dungeness]

1) Labor Unions who do not want to work. Assured job for life

2) Low meritorious workforce due to Reservations (affirmative action policies)

3) No concern for customer needs but assured contracts from them

4) Assured spoon feeding and hand holding by Suppliers

5) Assured Budgets to support them from the Government

6) They are not as patriotic as our PDF Indian warriors here?

Joke aside, all these are not fundamental shortcomings and as far as I am concerned, they all can be addressed with a top-down system wide reform. Just because they are public sectors, it doesn't necessary mean they can not do a good job. Just like @Water Car Engineer pointed out, ISRO is a better performer among Indian public defense organizations. Why not put a performing Head of ISRO to lead HAL or DRDO? China has been doing this for years, and they created a promotion system that many young engineers are willing to put out 11 hours per day 7 days a week for their jobs, which pay peanuts comparing to what a relevant private company is willing to pay .

Do you guys think all of these problems do not exist in private companies?

6) They are not as patriotic as our PDF Indian warriors here?

Joke aside, all these are not fundamental shortcomings and as far as I am concerned, they all can be addressed with a top-down system wide reform. Just because they are public sectors, it doesn't necessary mean they can not do a good job. Just like @Water Car Engineer pointed out, ISRO is a better performer among Indian public defense organizations. Why not put a performing Head of ISRO to lead HAL or DRDO? China has been doing this for years, and they created a promotion system that many young engineers are willing to put out 11 hours per day 7 days a week for their jobs, which pay peanuts comparing to what a relevant private company is willing to pay .

Do you guys think all of these problems do not exist in private companies?

Some of Chinese engineers work so hard and they actually died at work. Like the chief designer of J-15, Mr. Luo Yang, he passed away right after J-15 complete first round of testing on CNS-16

 

[Nilgiri]

Some of Chinese engineers work so hard and they actually died at work. Like the chief designer of J-15, Mr. Luo Yang, he passed away right after J-15 complete first round of testing on CNS-16

RIP to him and respect too.

I have heard similar stories from Japan and Korea. Indians in general are not quite so dedicated for the most part to their work to the levels seen among some East Asians (when you look overall and average-wise) at the higher paying/goal or project oriented/stressful jobs. Manual labour and menial jobs are where Indians give it their all....but such is the case worldwide since such people literally earn their bread day by day....but I have seen many Indians work really harder than average in this realm of economic level than most others.

Overall Indian work ethic balance is about world average at the professional level I would say (balancing with non-work related stuff and finer things in life etc..).

 

[Dungeness]

RIP to him and respect too.

I have heard similar stories from Japan and Korea. Indians in general are not quite so dedicated for the most part to their work to the levels seen among some East Asians (when you look overall and average-wise) at the higher paying/goal or project oriented/stressful jobs. Manual labour and menial jobs are where Indians give it their all....but such is the case worldwide since such people literally earn their bread day by day....but I have seen many Indians work really harder than average in this realm of economic level than most others.

Overall Indian work ethic balance is about world average at the professional level I would say (balancing with non-work related stuff and finer things in life etc..).

If you don't mind, I am going to ask a question that might be a little sensitive.

I have read an article written by a Chinese engineer who was dispatched to India to help installing some power generation equipment. He said that in India, designers do not have hands-on work experience, and manual workers have no idea why they have to this way or that way, they just do as they are told. While engineers are discussing, workers are just idling. They almost belong to two different world. He thought it was due to "class" issue, and they simply don't mix jobs. This is very different from China or Japan, as all new engineers will have to start from the production floor, and it is very common that engineers make parts first.

Is this common in India?

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Do you guys think all of these problems do not exist in private companies?

Of late, we have seen what they've done in a relative short period of time in aerospace and defence, granted this is nothing to what's happening else where, but it's a start. Even though they are very new in this sector, they've been moving pretty fast in gaining a certain capability. From taking over companies/plants, tying up with outside players, getting infrastructure up. I am not saying the public sector cant turn around, but they need a fire under their *** to do it. If they cant keep up, they can go the way of Hindustan Motors. At this point if competition doesnt bring the best out of them, I dont know what will. Certain public sector companies like HAL, BDL, BEML, BEL I think will only gain from this competition, even if their share of the pie is being reduced. Some of them actually are taking money out of their own pocket for R&D. But OFB, I dont think they'll adapt fast enough.

 

[Nilgiri]

If you don't mind, I am going to ask a question that might be a little sensitive.

I have read an article written by a Chinese engineer who was dispatched to India to help installing some power generation equipment. He said that in India, designers do not have hands-on work experience, and manual workers have no idea why they have to this way or that way, they just do as they are told. While engineers are discussing, workers are just idling. They almost belong to two different world. He thought it was due to "class" issue, and they simply don't mix jobs. This is very different from China or Japan, as all new engineers will have to start from the production floor, and it is very common that engineers make parts first.

Is this common in India?

He is not wrong.

It is quite common depending on the field. Labour can be quite segregated because labour is still very cheap, so least resistance for short term benefits prevail in many areas. But the greater hands on training is increasing for engineers along with better skills/theory cohesion for the technicians/labour in more recent years. This is basically the transition generation right now from what I have heard from the old ways to the newer more modern ways.

There still however may be indian characteristics in the workplace ethics that will lend a particular character compared to other countries and societies even with giving time to globalisation etc.

Exact current prevalence of this habit, I am not sure. It will vary by industry and region. Already in the South's industrial hubs for example, there is already a large shift to modern training w.r.t engineering practices...and the habits have expanded to even the trades like electricians, plumbing, carpentry etc..and it will permeate more fully as manufacturing expands in the rest of the country hopefully.