Defexpo 2014: Land, Naval & Internal Homeland Security Systems Exhibit

[Water Car Engineer]

 

[laltaputu]

 

[Dazzler]

No, its rifled. Had a good discussion with the guy there. I was telling my friends that Army calls this tank MK1a while DRDO calls it MK2, hearing this the DRDO fellow called me up, rather angrily and told me i was wrong. When i asked him why they used rifled instead of smoothbore, he told me that it packs more punch and how they make it so that the tank column can sustain itself even when not under a armed helicopter umbrella cause of its LAHAT.

Very nice pics (y)

Regarding your question, either the DRDO fellow didnt know the drawbacks of a rifled gun or he was playing innocent, planning a gun around an atgm round is not a wise thing to do. Worst, making complete line of effective ammo for an obselete technology is one heck of a task, ask OFB.

There is NO advantage a 120 mm rifled gun enjoys over a modern 125mm or 120mm smoothbore gun. It has no long rod penetrators, no appropriate heat round (LAHAT is a 105mm round modified for 120mm).

If you go to the expo again, can you ask why they are insisting with rifled tech when the world has moved on to smoothbore, including the pioneers planning to follow suit i.e. the Brits provided their budget allows them to.

 

[Dazzler]

haha...I knew that..it was a poor attempt at humour on my part. I have a genuine doubt though. Can't they fit actual ERA over the IRCM module and leave only the IR sensor in the open?

well, if they fit ERA over it and a shell hit the ERA, the whole guidance unit may blow up due to the reactive explosion.

 

[Indischer]

well, if they fit ERA over it and a shell hit the ERA, the whole guidance unit may blow up due to the reactive explosion.

Since the explosion is directed outwards, there's some chance that it may survive, as against a hit without any protection. In any case, such weaknesses are part of every modern tank.

 

[bloo]

Can you stop whining?

After you please.

 

[Daedalus]

Very nice pics (y)

Regarding your question, either the DRDO fellow didnt know the drawbacks of a rifled gun or he was playing innocent, planning a gun around an atgm round is not a wise thing to do. Worst, making complete line of effective ammo for an obselete technology is one heck of a task, ask OFB.

There is NO advantage a 120 mm rifled gun enjoys over a modern 125mm or 120mm smoothbore gun. It has no long rod penetrators, no appropriate heat round (LAHAT is a 105mm round modified for 120mm).

If you go to the expo again, can you ask why they are insisting with rifled tech when the world has moved on to smoothbore, including the pioneers planning to follow suit i.e. the Brits provided their budget allows them to.

Actually, I precisely asked him this and the answer was the same, all of them at the DRDO were in favour of rifled not smoothbore. He was even explaining it to me, but we were interrupted by a captain from the mechanised infantry from Ahmednagar. The fellow was more interested in talking to him than me.
Just remembered a interesting fact which i overheard the DRDO guy telling the Captain that the tank will be sent to Ahmednagar for further trail after the Expo.

If you go to the expo again, can you ask why they are insisting with rifled tech when the world has moved on to smoothbore, including the pioneers planning to follow suit i.e. the Brits provided their budget allows them to.

Sorry cant do that. I myself could love to go one more time, but the expo was open for civvies only on its last day. I had to run all over the place just to see everything before it closed.

 

[Dillinger]

@Abingdonboy NOT YOU TOO!

The Arjun Mk.2 does not have a radar, god damn it does it not occur to anyone that a shroud/cover for a radar would not exactly require an opening for an optical aperture! Its not a targeting system either for the lahat (COAPS damn it!). IT IS A VIRCM DERIVED SYSTEM FOR IR SPECTRUM PROTECTION OR AS I SOMETIMES STILL SUSPECT AN IR LAMP THAT SOMEONE DECIDED TO SPRUCE UP!!


@Daedalus Its probably an infrequent error on your part but PLEASE, "TRIAL" NOT "TRAIL", ITS LIKE NAILS ON A BLACKBOARD BRO!



@ALL:- Addressing two common issues being mentioned across multiple forums

1) No tank till date has been able to provide complete ballistic/blast protection for its IRCM suite, not many have one to begin with.

Or for its gunner's day and night/commander's panoramic sights (you can put armor around it and on top of it but you're still going to end up with one side wide open, what with it being an optical device and all and ergo requiring an aperture to..you know...receive light (pick a spectrum, its still light) reflected off objects). A direct or lucky hit ergo can knock out any tank's optics but it is not a feat which can be achieved as a premeditated and deliberate action- as in specifically and precisely targeting said optics and sensors with accurate fire in order to knock them out.

Case in point-

(M1A1, any top attack munition hitting the "right spot" will likely kill the main sight, nothing anyone can do about it, MBTs are not made to take all conceivable hits and still go on functioning at optimum- they are designed to eat a lot of damage and still end up with the CREW BEING ALIVE)

2) Tanks have limited real estate, even the MOST advanced tank designs end up getting cluttered if multiple systems are employed, with LOS/FOV for a system or two getting hindered* in one sector or another.

Case in point-

The Leopard MBT evolution with the the day/night commander's periscope sitting adjacent to a RCWS.(Albeit any FOV related penalty is IMO likely to be marginally less egregious than the one our COAPS will face due to a bulkier RCWS). The only exception so far is the T-90MS where the commander's periscope is placed right along with the RCWS and ergo both systems can move in tandem so as to eliminate any FOV penalty**.

*Any such hindrance does not lead to a particularly debilitating blind spot, the world over tanks operate with the commander's panoramic sight or periscope having a RCWS or manually operated AA/anti-personal weapons mount adjacent to it.
**I am addressing this issue not because it is particularly important or pertinent but because across the forums a lot of people have been going around beating their heads over it.

@Dazzler The rifled gun was picked because there seems to be some inexplicable obsession. It hasn't been particularly disadvantageous for us since it can fire about anything from APFSDS to HEAT (with a driving band on the bearings) or HESH although DRDO has for some time been mulling a smoothbore option.

@Alpha1 The above should answer your question wrt the ruggedness of tank optics.

All in all the MK.2 still has room for improvement, specially in how the different elements which have been added are configured to co-exist on board the tank.

 

[sancho]

That thing looks more like a testbed for something else in the future. It was put together rather quickly, so never expected much from it.

Not sure about the testbed, but even if it was put together quickly, it is sad to see such a bad performance.

 

[Dillinger]

The Ashwini and Arudhra systems should have been the stars of the show. They are India's entry into the field of mature AESA sensor systems.

 

[sancho]

Rafael - Pip Vav Collaboration
The companies jointly offer the Indian Navy a weapon system for the medium and large ships called the "Typhoon", as well as a smaller system suitable for patrol boats - the "Mini Typhoon"

What does Rafael’s "Typhoon" cannon do at the Indian company’s Pip Vav exhibition booth? It turns out that the two companies are collaborating on the sale of systems for the Indian Navy.

Pip Vav is considered the largest private Indian defense company (most of the defense companies in India are governmental) and its owner also owns a large shipyard in Mumbai. At the company booth at the large defense exhibition in New Delhi, it presented systems which had developed jointly by the Indian company and several world leading companies - including collaboration with Rafael...

http://www.israeldefense.com/?CategoryID=426&ArticleID=2737

Israel and India to Jointly Develop Anti-Missile System

According the website defensenews, negotiations were held for over six months, and the plan was approved by the Indian defense ministry. The Indian system will be developed in cooperation with Rafael and IAI

India and Israel will jointly build an integrated anti-missile system to be deployed against Chinese nuclear and conventional missiles, according a report on defensenews.

The new program, which does not yet have a name, has been approved by the Indian Defence Ministry, with a contract expected to be signed in the next six months, according to a scientist with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) at Defexpo.

The missile defense program will include the participation of Rafael and Israel Aircraft Industries, in partnership with DRDO and state-owned Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) and Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL)...

 

[Dazzler]

Since the explosion is directed outwards, there's some chance that it may survive, as against a hit without any protection. In any case, such weaknesses are part of every modern tank.

guidance unit is sensitive equipment, a slight jitter or spall may cause havoc for it since ERA explosion works both ways.

 

[Alpha1]

guidance unit is sensitive equipment, a slight jitter or spall may cause havoc for it since ERA explosion works both ways.

ok, a slightly offtopic question
Incase of a nuclear detonation, the overpressure if not powerfull enough to destroy the tank will definately destroy and damage sensitive equipment mounted on the tank.? and render the tank useless in battle

 

[sancho]

Some more interesting videos:

P8I

Atlas Elektronik SeaHake Mod4 ER torpedo

TATA Kestrel 8x8

 

[Dazzler]

ok, a slightly offtopic question
Incase of a nuclear detonation, the overpressure if not powerfull enough to destroy the tank will definately destroy and damage sensitive equipment mounted on the tank.? and render the tank useless in battle

modern armoured vehicles, mbts in particular have pressurised turret/ hull, so a nuclear explosion will only harm IF it explodes near the vehicle lets say a few km radius. It also depends on weapon yield i.e. how powerful it is and what is the radius of action. However, equipment mounted outside the turret like the lahat guidance we see in arjun front turret is not a wise solution anyway as it is too vulnerable. Modern mbts have such equipment housed inside the turret.