Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[MilSpec]

TATA is pushing out licence produced helicopters from several different companies in high numbers, if I'm not wrong at even higher rates than HAL does it with their helicopter production lines and in a shorter time since they started with it.

how about some data?

 

[MilSpec]

Take Samtel for example, they get the chance to produce not only the HMS that they already produce, but also the FSO optronics system, most likely including the IRST and even some displays.
This would not be possible, if the deal would not include the high offset clause, which demands production parts in whatever form (licence production, JVs, ideally even in co-development) back to the Indian industry. The AESA production at BEL, including ToT and source codes will also help our own developments in that regard. I hoped that the French would go for more co-developments, but sadly that didn't happend so far, but anything that can help us wrt to development or production of techs, systems or even weapons must be highly welcomed!

IRST and Displays constitute Industrial benefits from Rafale?

 

[he-man]

IRST and Displays constitute Industrial benefits from Rafale?

I better stay out for the fear of being branded false flagger

 

[halloweene]

Which is why I estimated a payment of 20% of the TCV in the first year which is typical for such large deals.
I don't want to rehash the old argument on the total value of this contract. I do anticipate a payment of 3 to 4 Billion dollars in the first year. Just for grins can we assume a payment of 4 Billion USD in the first year and then work out which acquisitions the IAF will defer to accommodate the Rafale purchase.

not sure what you are meaning, but you don't may tvc for exports in France.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Which is why I estimated a payment of 20% of the TCV in the first year which is typical for such large deals.
I don't want to rehash the old argument on the total value of this contract. I do anticipate a payment of 3 to 4 Billion dollars in the first year. Just for grins can we assume a payment of 4 Billion USD in the first year and then work out which acquisitions the IAF will defer to accommodate the Rafale purchase.

AFAIK the initial payment for the MMRCA is only 10% so $1.2-2BN for the FY2014-15, the Fin Minister of India said that this initial payment had already been allotted for the FY2014-15 defence budget. There is no reason the IAF should have defer a a angle purchase to accommodate the Rafale buy, no reason whatsoever. The annual capex budget for the IAF is $6-7BN as is and the iAF has already publicly slated a plan to spend $100-150BN by 2022-4 on capital accusations so budget isn't really an issue.



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Interesting:


Deal for 126 Rafale fighters close to being signed

NEW DELHI: France and India are fully on track to seal the deal for the around $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project, under which IAF will acquire 126 Rafale fighter jets, French ambassador Francios Richier said.
"Negotiations have recently achieved significant progress. We are looking to sign the intergovernmental agreement together with the commercial contract for the planes," said Richier, speaking exclusively to TOI.
Reacting to recent reports [see post #5371] that France had asked the Indian government to sign a government guarantee to safeguard the negotiations for the fighters, Richier denied that any such agreement was asked for. "We have worked very closely with all Indian governments, so we have no reason to ask for such an agreement," he said.
[...]
Eurofighter Typhoon as well as the US fighters that lost out in the long-drawn selection process are eagerly waiting in the wings in the hope of staging a comeback in the dogfight over the world's biggest such tender.
But there seems little possibility of that happening now, with India having invested almost a decade in finally selecting the Rafale after extensive technical and commercial evaluation. Down to just 34 fighter squadrons at present when it requires at least 44, IAF is banking upon the MMRCA project to retain its combat edge against adversaries.

from:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/33043249.cms




So where are these reports coming from? They seem to be utter fabrications.

 

[rockstarIN]

Which is why I estimated a payment of 20% of the TCV in the first year which is typical for such large deals.
I don't want to rehash the old argument on the total value of this contract. I do anticipate a payment of 3 to 4 Billion dollars in the first year. Just for grins can we assume a payment of 4 Billion USD in the first year and then work out which acquisitions the IAF will defer to accommodate the Rafale purchase.

I do not know how the payment terms in huge military contracts. But 20-30% upfront payment is not a term favorable to India for a contract where the total value is calculated in life circle cost basis and only16 is purchased out of 126 on fly away basis. Indian military contracts which is quite unique including ToT and involvement of Indian companies in production. I'm sure we are still paying Russia on yearly basis for MKI production which is still going on.

 

[halloweene]

once again, exports from France are tax free. The rest is indian stuff

 

[sancho]

Assuming 20% of 20 billion dollars is paid to Dassault in 2014 it still takes a big chunk out of the IAF's budget for 2014. Which acquisitions do you think the IAF will defer to pay for Rafales?

The most logical way would be, that IAF pays for the first 18 Rafales that will be produced by Dassault itself and which are already budgeted by the French forces. Lets assume a high system cost of $150 million each =>$2.7 billions, so roughly half of the budget, but obviously less than what you estimated.
That still leaves more than enough room for Apaches (although I would kick them first for Rudras or LCH, if I had to safe money somewhere), Chinooks and most likely the A330 MRTT.
So neither do I see IAF defering procurements, nor should there be any need to divert funds from IA or IN as you assumed earlier too.

how about some data?

Nothing new, we have discussed that last year when the news about TATA increasing S92 production rate till the end of the year.

IRST and Displays constitute Industrial benefits from Rafale?

Isn't it? How would you describe Samtel getting hands on techs (especially the HMS, the optronics and IRST) they couldn't develop anytime soon, that they can not only produce for the Indian rrequirement like in every normal licence production, but also for any future Rafale orders, especially the export once. That gives them the possibility to earn additional money, apart from the work they do for Indian forces (exactly what you want HAL to do as well) and lets not forget that this industrial benefits will also create more jobs in India! It's not only Samtel, Reliance will surely built wings for export customers too, BEL, or even HAL. The French even revised their offer in Switzerland after we selected Rafale, because they planed with diverting production parts to India to reduce the cost.

We have comparable industrial benefits from producing parts or taking over maintenance for Migs or Flankers of other Asian countries, we produce parts for Do 228 aircrafts, but all at far lower level then what the MMRCA / Rafale gets us. Imo, the industrial benefit with the EF could be even higher as part of the consortium, but it's the whole package that counts, not just one part of it and the overall benefits made Rafale clearly preferable for India.

 

[MilSpec]

Isn't it? How would you describe Samtel getting hands on techs (especially the HMS, the optronics and IRST) they couldn't develop anytime soon, that they can not only produce for the Indian rrequirement like in every normal licence production, but also for any future Rafale orders, especially the export once. That gives them the possibility to earn additional money, apart from the work they do for Indian forces (exactly what you want HAL to do as well) and lets not forget that this industrial benefits will also create more jobs in India! It's not only Samtel, Reliance will surely built wings for export customers too, BEL, or even HAL. The French even revised their offer in Switzerland after we selected Rafale, because they planed with diverting production parts to India to reduce the cost.

We have comparable industrial benefits from producing parts or taking over maintenance for Migs or Flankers of other Asian countries, we produce parts for Do 228 aircrafts, but all at far lower level then what the MMRCA / Rafale gets us. Imo, the industrial benefit with the EF could be even higher as part of the consortium, but it's the whole package that counts, not just one part of it and the overall benefits made Rafale clearly preferable for India.

Let's for a sec assume that a generic display in rafale would be made by samtel. How would samtel approach this, would it expect DB to provide specs, ppaps, process control and may be tooling to samtel for manufacturing the display which is beyond it's manufacturing prowess, or would it be just the product requirements?
In essence is the display system an completely new industrial technology which was beyond Samtel's reach till now which has been now facilitated by rafale?

if yes, are their any other such subsystems that can be identified?

 

[he-man]

Let's for a sec assume that a generic display in rafale would be made by samtel. How would samtel approach this, would it expect DB to provide specs, ppaps, process control and may be tooling to samtel for manufacturing the display which is beyond it's manufacturing prowess, or would it be just the product requirements?
In essence is the display system an completely new industrial technology which was beyond Samtel's reach till now which has been now facilitated by rafale?

if yes, are their any other such subsystems that can be identified?

Its all a hogwash.
Its a simple lcd display,we cannot even make that without the help of elbit!

thats how bad our condition really is

 

[sancho]

In essence is the display system an completely new industrial technology which was beyond Samtel's reach till now which has been now facilitated by rafale?

You are focusing on the displays only to create a point, while ignoring the more capable techs! We know that Samtel can make displays, but they can't make HMS or IRST right? They only will produce displays too, because they are a JV partner of Thales.

 

[he-man]

You are focusing on the displays only to create a point, while ignoring the more capable techs! We know that Samtel can make displays, but they can't make HMS or IRST right? They only will produce displays too, because they are a JV partner of Thales.

The point remains same.
The tech will never be actually available to india per se with ip rights.

Never.

Thats why its just equivalent to an offshelf purchase only,with the exception that its produced in india.

 

[sancho]

The point remains same.
The tech will never be actually available to india per se with ip rights.

Never.

Thats why its just equivalent to an offshelf purchase only,with the exception that its produced in india.

So what? We don't need to own it, but learn how it works and how we can produce it. That will help in own developments later too. We have IP rights of certain FGFA techs too, but that doesn't automatically mean that we can develop or produce them now on our own right?
We have still a very long way to go in the aero field and are lacking so far behind, any JV or future co-development will help us. I woul love to see us jointly developing a NG Python or MICA missile where we can actually learn from latest techs, rather than trying to build something that is roughly comparable to the older R77s like Astra.

 

[MilSpec]

You are focusing on the displays only to create a point, while ignoring the more capable techs! We know that Samtel can make displays, but they can't make HMS or IRST right? They only will produce displays too, because they are a JV partner of Thales.

Ok lets look at Helmet mounted cuing system or infrared search and tracking device... So you are saying that Samtel cannot make these on their own so rafale deal will facilitate samtel in producing such subsystems... is that correct?

So what? We don't need to own it, but learn how it works and how we can produce it. That will help in own developments later too. We have IP rights of certain FGFA techs too, but that doesn't automatically mean that we can develop or produce them now on our own right?
We have still a very long way to go in the aero field and are lacking so far behind, any JV or future co-development will help us. I woul love to see us jointly developing a NG Python or MICA missile where we can actually learn from latest techs, rather than trying to build something that is roughly comparable to the older R77s like Astra.

Astra's seeker are nothing like the R77's btw, there is speculation that astra seeker migh have a lock on after launch pps mode like the R27 Et/Er with two way comm link. Also Astra I/II both will have two seeker configurations.

And also this rhetoric that Western bvr are the bees knees is completely unsubstantiated. Russian seekers and propulsion has developed with the same finnese, with rvv-sd and K77 aesa, most if not all western BVRM's will find themselves out ranged and out gunned.

edit:
Is there any indian organisation developing FLIR systems by any chance, like IRDE?

 

[dbc]

And also this rhetoric that Western bvr are the bees knees is completely unsubstantiated. Russian seekers and propulsion has developed with the same finnese, with rvv-sd and K77 aesa, most if not all western BVRM's will find themselves out ranged and out gunned.

What is this based on? Real world test data? Operational use data? It is apparent that you love all things Russian - da?