Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[luckyyy]

Once again, they cleared the proposals of the vendors to the field trials!
The field trials are the technical evaluation!

field trails are over.......

what made you think that MoD will ask for offset and bidding for a aircraft which hasn't fullfill the IAF requirements..

 

[SpArK]

Luftwaffe pits Eurofighter against Su-30MKI (David and Goliath):​

Note: Errors due to translation maybe there.-SpArK


David and Goliath

Bareilly, India, 30.12.2010.


The Sukhoi Su-27 "Flanker" and its two-seat Indian development, the Su-30 MKI are aviation enthusiasts for many the epitome of highly agile fighter aircraft. Those who do not have the incredible "Cobra" - the major international aviation exhibitions in wonder amazed to maneuver and wondered: "Who's there's a chance in a dogfight?"

The answer is: The Air Force - and with the Euro Fighter

The Su-30 is impressive for its sheer size


The Sukhoi Su-30 MKI is a two-seat advanced variant of the Russian Sukhoi Su-27 interceptor "Flanker", equipped with the latest avionics from different nations, including Russia, Israel, France and India. It is the product of cooperation of Russian and Indian defense industry and also a thrust vector control provided with the machine itself means that it also maneuvers beyond the purely aerodynamic as possible, in the so-called "post stall" - to take wraps, area.

Lt. Col. Frank Simon,Su-30MKI.

Unique opportunity to compare

Lt. Col. Frank Simon was the right man for such a task. As a former pilot of a MiG 29, both the air forces of the NVA and the Fighter Wing 73 "Steinhoff" (JG 73 S), he has an in-designed machine Russia flown both, and the permission to € Fighter to fly the modern.

"So this flight was a special feature, and I looked forward with great anticipation to the experience. Equally excited as I was Lieutenant-Colonel Frank Neurath from € Fighter-type escort from Manching. He accompanied me on this trip to India. "
When creating the suit had already Simon his first-Deja Vu: "The Indian Flanker pilots use the same Russian anti-G trousers that we on the MiG-29 took advantage of it."

Then Simon became the Backseat of his pilots a briefing for the upcoming flight: As the ejection seat to operate it, a brief presentation of the Flanker and admission to the cockpit and the planned maneuvers and procedures.

Su-30 in the mountains

Cobras in the Himalayas

"In the training room by the breathtaking scenery of the Himalayas, it goes right down to business. My Indian pilot demonstrated to me how close and hard to maneuver Su-30 can and then even makes me try the same. We fly a variety of maneuvers with and without thrust vectoring, Immelmann, loop, and finally the cobra maneuver. " And although the Jets still below the Himalayan peaks are, the air would seem for the engines of the Sukhoi quite thin, because The Indian pilot like "the cobra" of the nose diagonally to the bottom only and do not move up because he probably fears that the incoming air is not sufficient for the combustion of oxygen to support the aircraft.


"In the end we still practice how to deal with the Flanker with the aid of the thrust vector control an opponent, attacking from the rear, out-maneuvered and can shoot. To this end, pull the edge after a hard curve sharply upward - based on her like a cobra. The steep attitude you get into a low speed range in which to counteract the thrust vector control. Now we turn so the thrust vector control - and the elegant nose of the Sukhoi falls at a rapid pace down to the astonished enemy to target the same: to speed with the helmet visor, an infrared missile opponents intrude on - and off it. " So much for theory ...

Size comparison

Lesson in physics

"Then I ask the pilot, he should do so again, while the nose quickly over the horizon to bring back order to follow the enemy, if our intention recognizes and tries to climb over us: But not just that he creates. Nose of the Flanker - despite thrust vector control - too heavy for planned maneuvers that. The " A € Fighter would now easy game: The Flanker is sluggish in the air without the speed. "We are the same try again at the end of the flight - with the same result .

In this case the result is not so amazing: Has she passed the Cobra maneuver was successful and the enemy pilot this is not recognized in time, then the Flanker-C possibly the winner of the duel. However, the Cobra maneuver is alive - no matter who runs what pilots and aircraft - even a little of the legend, as an experienced opponent can guess this maneuver.

The rest is done by the inertia of the mass: A heavy fighter aircraft like the Flanker-C is disadvantaged by its high weight if it is set by its exceptional aerodynamics and powerful engines only in a position to take wraps to such a maneuver in general, which Most fighters do not make - not even with a thrust vector control. Just the Treibstoffzuladung the Sukhoi over nine tons weight reached nearly empty weight of the € Fighters themselves: Flanker-C is a heavy weight, a Goliath, even with its strong engine here at a - pushes limits - physical.

Defensive measures of EF

Information is everything

The knowledge is sometimes not so new, not necessarily because they already can read on Wikipedia, but also because the Flanker even at one or another international flight maneuvers here and was impressed experienced pilots but by a spectacular performance, but not take advantage of them: A maneuver is only as good as it is able to afford - in the real application, where it arrives within a few seconds later to make the right decision.


For one or the other young Euro Fighter pilots this knowledge will be a valuable pillow, for the extraordinary handling characteristics of € Fighters to the air force pilots, the aerodynamic and technical ability to escape the Cobra maneuver, while this would be combat aircraft of the third generation is usually overwhelming.

Su-30 starts


Duel of the best

Finally, one must ask why this recognition already so public was not, sometimes an indication that the pilots of the NATO and so successful were the past, because they often exerted significantly as, for example, pilots on a MiG-21 former Warsaw Pact countries. But even without the reference to the better practice practice, the Western world from this multi-purpose aircraft have respect for that part of the American F-15E Strike Eagle inspired was his in and one way or another exercise with NATO partners, their weapons systems offered Paroli. The U.S. armed forces even bought in May 2009, two Su-27 Flanker, the electronic warfare better able to assess, opportunities - and thus the results of our own and future weapon systems in comparison.

EF starts

Of course, all weapons systems have their strengths and weaknesses. Because the Flanker as an interceptor designed and heavier in military service introduced was the original, it can be in the action described by the much smaller and lighter € Fighter can not compete, which, subsequently, a better thrust / weight ratio of the day creates what the Luftwaffenjet in fictional scenario to explain this would be winning on points.

However, one must consider when comparing all weapon systems, such maneuvers that the detail of a reality show ever. In real use it would likely be such that the two pilots, with its extensive arsenal of weapons from a distance fight - ever seen to have potential at all without the enemy. And of course, is the Su-30 MKI Cobra maneuver without a never to be underestimated opponent. Your experienced Indian pilots can now focus on maneuvers with the thrust vector control to take wraps extraordinary new. For your own purpose and location of such exchanges including thought - for both sides shall be a win-win situation one.

For the Air Force and all the nations that have concerned the € Fighter, is the knowledge that their weapon system, which has been since its introduction in constant development, the amount of time and that you have made with the technology support Euro Fighter is the right choice.



David und Goliath

 

[sancho]

Rafter already gave you the links to Gripen NG, but let me correct some more points.

Also when gripen NG is fielded and tested then what is the problem, this means atleast we have seen what we are getting but in other cases we have not even seen what actually we are getting. Rafale and typhoon tested by IAF never even had aesa or thrust vectoring as claimed by typhoon.

Rafale came to India in 2009 with an working AESA radar and most likely with all the changes that are on offer for India, because they presented most of those in the trials in Swiss too. The French AESA is ready and serial production even started, the first delivery of the new Rafales is planed by next year, while Gripen and EF plans with flight test of the final AESA radar only around 2013.
Gripen NG came only as a tech demonstrator, with pre versions of the systems that could be available and only some capabilities that are planed. All it did was ground and some flight tests, while weapon test was made by older Gripens only.

According to IAF's requirement none of the fighter are suitable. Every fighter had to include some new technology to meet the requirement.

That's not correct! The reports you mean says, every fighter had some issues, but they all were able to end the trials. That doesn't mean they need new techs, or tells us something about the outcome of the tests, but that IAF was able to do the test.
I doubt IAF had required that all techs and capabilities must be ready, but the more the better and that gives them a hint on how long it takes till these capabilities will be ready.
So far we know that the US fighters and the Rafale are the most mature fighters, while EF is operational, but very late in developing the upgrade, Gripen and the Mig still don't have final prototypes now.

Look man, they are just going of thrust increase. As per gripen website its just is simple upgrade and according to my opinion if the facts written are true then its something we should not be worried.

Don't take the PR of the vendors fro granted! The Volvo RM12 engine is basically an GE 404, but Volvo has the licence production rights and integrated around 40% of own parts. The GE 414 is a further developed engine of the GE 404, but will have no Swedish parts at all, so the engines will be different, but more over the airframe needs changes as well, just like LCA MK2 needs changes to house the engine and get enough airflow as well. Rafale instead will have the same airframe and the same engine, with upgrades only in the engine itself, to make it more cost-effevtive.

Just tell me one thing....recently rafale started falling down, if tomorrow France start to field down their Rafale then what we will do. Look it might not appear as a big problem to you but this is one of the problem which is drawing rafale back. On the other hand gripen is already 270 on order, same with eurofighter.

Please do some research and you will find out that the Rafale crash was caused most likely by an pilot error and that they were flying shortly after that issue again, so that's really not a point.
Also there are not 270 Gripen on order, only something around 200 (CZE and HUN leased Gripen from the original order of Swedish forces), Rafale now has around 180 on order, with the plan to order 250 to 280.
The difference is that the Rafales will be upgraded to the same level as ours if we buy them, while the upgraded C/Ds might get only some techs that are now in testing in the Gripen NG (AESA and data links are likely, IRST or new EWS? The GE414 engine not, because Volvo is offering an RM12 uprgade for the older too). That means while there are hundreds of Rafales, EFs and Super Hornets that needs the same future upgrades, only 80 F16s and maybe not even 50 Migs, or Gripen E/Fs would be there from other operators. So if we buy those, we have to pay for a big part of future upgrades as well, that's why the Mig although low unit costs, will be very expensive to maintain and keep them upgraded.

 

[SpArK]

@sancho..

Whats ur opinion over the article i have posted?Its ur own luftwaffe report!!!

Benny

 

[sancho]

field trails are over.......

what made you think that MoD will ask for offset and bidding for a aircraft which hasn't fullfill the IAF requirements..

Because that is part of the requirements, the technical side by IAF, while MoD makes the requirements about offsets and financial bids. No matter what the technical evaluation said, the vendors had to make their proposals to MoD too and they will base the shortlisting on both the evaluation report of IAF and the proposals of the vendors.
Did you for get that the initial timeline of the proposals was not met and that the vendors had to make new once, because of the delays of the competition? After the shortlistings we will even get new and final proposals of those vendors who entered the final stage.

 

[sancho]

@sancho..

Whats ur opinion over the article i have posted?Its ur own luftwaffe report!!!

Benny

Just read it in German once again and it is interesting, but not surprising. We knew before that the twin seat config will add much weight to the already high weight of the bigger Flanker series. The EF instead is a medium class air superiority fighter, aimed to counter exactly these Flankers. I would expect the single seat Su 35 with better T/W ratio and TVC to fulfill those manouvers and be more comparable to the EF, but for IAFs possible opponents the MKI will be more than a match in WVR for sure.
That's also why it was also not surprising that IAF was impressed by the EF during the recent exercises, because they were aimed on A2A combats. In the A2G field instead, the MKI is way more capable, be in because of the available weapons, more range and payload..., so it would be more surprising if IAF was impressed by the EF in this field as well.

 

[SpArK]

Just read it in German once again and it is interesting, but not surprising. We knew before that the twin seat config will add much weight to the already high weight of the bigger Flanker series. The EF instead is a medium class air superiority fighter, aimed to counter exactly these Flankers. I would expect the single seat Su 35 with better T/W ratio and TVC to fulfill those manouvers and be more comparable to the EF, but for IAFs possible opponents the MKI will be more than a match in WVR for sure.
That's also why it was also not surprising that IAF was impressed by the EF during the recent exercises, because they were aimed on A2A combats. In the A2G field instead, the MKI is way more capable, be in because of the available weapons, more range and payload..., so it would be more surprising if IAF was impressed by the EF in this field as well.

Excellent, and i believe this is the first hands on review of the exercise we had with EF.

 

[sancho]

Excellent, and i believe this is the first hands on review of the exercise we had with EF.

That's actually what makes me curious, because this is a German Luftwaffe pilot, not an RAF pilot. The Germans were in India only during Aero India, when they presented the EFs, so the article might be new, but don't have to be from a real exercise.

 

[SpArK]

That's actually what makes me curious, because this is a German Luftwaffe pilot, not an RAF pilot. The Germans were in India only during Aero India, when they presented the EFs, so the article might be new, but don't have to be from a real exercise.

Lt. Col. Frank Simon, seems to be a name of a RAF pilot to me and the analysis is based on his views which Luftwaffe took as they share the same platform.

 

[sancho]

Lt. Col. Frank Simon, seems to be a name of a RAF pilot to me and the analysis is based on his views which Luftwaffe took as they share the same platform.

No, he is German and as the article says, an ex Mig 29 pilot and now is in the EF Jagdgeschwader 73 „Steinhoff“ (JG 73 S).
Will try to find out when these flight happens, maybe someone in a German forum can help me out.

 

[SpArK]

No, he is German and as the article says, an ex Mig 29 pilot and now is in the EF Jagdgeschwader 73 „Steinhoff“ (JG 73 S).
Will try to find out when these flight happens, maybe someone in a German forum can help me out.

Okay.. go get it .. Tigerrr.....

 

[SpArK]

The ultimate death stare: New RAF helmet allows pilots to shoot down enemy jets by looking at them​

By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
3rd January 2011


Pilot can glance at an aircraft he wants to fire a missile at by using his mind

It looks no more high-tech than any other fighter pilot helmet.
But this £250,000 headset allows RAF pilots to shoot down planes simply by looking at them.
The ‘Striker’ Integrated Display Helmet marks one of the biggest leaps forward in attack capabilities in military history.

How it works: The £250,000 'Striker' Integrated Display Helmet allows RAF pilots to shoot down planes simply by looking at them. As long as the enemy's aircraft is in sight, a missile can be directed towards it



All a pilot has to do is glance at an enemy aircraft and then steer a missile towards it with his, or her, mind.
Targets pop-up in the pilot's visor, at which point he can select by voice command and fire.

As long as the enemy's aircraft is in sight - whether that be below, above or to either side - a missile can be directed towards it.
The breakthrough brings to an end the century-old concept of the aerial dogfight, in which one plane must be directly behind another in order to hit it with firepower.

The innovative two-part helmet design has been co-developed with aircrew and logistic support engineering participation.
It works by using tiny optical sensors in the Striker helmet, which are then picked up by further sensors in the cockpit.

In flight: The helmet has undergone extensive testing in RAF Typhoon aircraft​

'It means the end of the dogfight,' leading pilot Mark Bowman told The Sun.
'Traditionally you have to get behind an aircraft to lock on. With this, I steer the weapons with my head.'
The helmet has been developed by Britain's BAE Systems and has been subjected to extensive flight trials in RAF Typhoon planes.
A spokesperson for BAE said: 'An advanced optical head tracker is integrated into the helmet system to provide a high accuracy/low latency solution for low, medium, and high altitude operations.
'While the system has been designed for the Eurofighter Typhoon, its modular design can be applied to all platforms, both rotary and fixed wing.'

Tiny optical sensors in the helmet pick up when the pilot locks onto enemy aircraft, and this is then picked up by further sensors in the cockpit​

Read more: New RAF helmet allows pilots to shoot down enemy jets by looking at them | Mail Online

 

[sancho]

Will try to find out when these flight happens, maybe someone in a German forum can help me out.

Forgot that it was Luftwaffe EFs, that were send to India to do the trials early 2010, so these flights should be made around that time.

 

[SpArK]

Forgot that it was Luftwaffe EFs, that were send to India to do the trials early 2010, so these flights should be made around that time.

So it wasn't any air exercise ,but the trials we are looking at.

 

[HongWu]

I think India will choose F-18, because MMS wants to go with USA. The delay is because some group of IAF officers want to go Russian or European. Now the delay is ending, it means MMS is pushing for quick acceptance of US offer.

F-18 will also give India access to F-35. India's strategic thinking should be that it wants to balance between Russia and USA. So it wants participation in T-50 related Russian programs and it wants to participate in F-35. The IN will also want F-35.

The least likely is Rafale or Eurofighter because they are too expensive. The cost of ownership over lifetime, not just the upfront costs, would be tremendous too.

Mig-35 is unlikely because that would be interpreted as a snub to USA. MMS's nose is firmly behind USA.

Gripen is a possibility though. It suits India's needs (just like LCA is supposed to suit India's needs). But I still think the F-35 offer and USA alliance is too sweet for MMS to pass up.