Dassault Aviation does not rule out more Rafale sales to India

[Styx]

PARIS: The head of Dassault Aviation said on Tuesday he had not given up hope of selling extra Rafales to India on top of a deal for 36 aircraft being negotiated by the French government.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi last month announced plans to buy 36 Rafales under a government-to-government contract with France, leaving doubts over the status of earlier plans to buy 126 planes, including 18 to be built in France.

"We'll see how about the second stage and how that evolves once the contract for 36 has been signed," Dassault Chief Executive Eric Trappier said at the rollout of a new business jet.

"I am not disappointed to drop from 126 to 36 planes, because the way I look at it, we are going up from 18 to 36," he told reporters, referring to the aircraft to be assembled at Dassault's own production line at Merignac, southwest France.

"We know that the Indian air force's needs far exceed 36 planes," he added.

India has rowed back from the commitment of the last government to buy 126 Rafales, saying the twin-engined planes - which would be able to fly over the Himalayas with a full weapons payload - would be too expensive.

Dassault Aviation does not rule out more Rafale sales to India - The Economic Times

 

[Sipahi]

Isn't they canceled due to much awaited HAL ??

 

[Optimos Prime IA]

No one cares about you Rafale. .. just send our 36 ASAP . Or we won't by ur helicopter carrier

Isn't they canceled due to much awaited HAL ??

No 36 finalised and with 18 as follow on if needed

 

[Abingdonboy]

No one cares about you Rafale. .. just send our 36 ASAP . Or we won't by ur helicopter carrier



No 36 finalised and with 18 as follow on if needed

This is illogical my friend 36, or even 54, Rafales are NOT viable for a AF the size of the IAF. More Rafales (and in large numbers) are all but guaranteed- the DM is simply playing word games and politics right now. Anything under 80-100 Rafales will be a HUGE burden for the IAF and would make he small Rafale fleet nothing but a liability.

 

[Optimos Prime IA]

This is illogical my friend 36, or even 54, Rafales are NOT viable for a AF the size of the IAF. More Rafales (and in large numbers) are all but guaranteed- the DM is simply playing word games and politics right now. Anything under 80-100 Rafales will be a HUGE burden for the IAF and would make he small Rafale fleet nothing but a liability.

My friend in which world are you living ?

 

[topgun047]

This is conjecture on my part but please bear with me.
It is well known that India blocked avionics deal for JF 17 by placing an order of deep upgradation of Mirage 2k-5 of IAF
Could it be that India similarly blocked purchase of Rafale which would been perfect omnirole platform for a small force like PAF by promising to buy Rafale.
And since PAF would have bought 2 squadrons of Rafale India also ordered just 36 thereby keeping the promise she made, once it became clear that Dassault has no business sense and is doomed/content to remain a cottage aerospace company.

@taybigay @halloween @Gabriel92

This is illogical my friend 36, or even 54, Rafales are NOT viable for a AF the size of the IAF. More Rafales (and in large numbers) are all but guaranteed- the DM is simply playing word games and politics right now. Anything under 80-100 Rafales will be a HUGE burden for the IAF and would make he small Rafale fleet nothing but a liability.

Most air forces in this world consider 36 to be huge number bro.
36 is perfectly viable and accetable number for cutting edge fighters until FGFA is inducted.
Of course there could be more but 36 by itself is also perfectly fine.

 

[Optimos Prime IA]

This is conjecture on my part but please bear with me.
It is well known that India blocked avionics deal for JF 17 by placing an order of deep upgradation of Mirage 2k-5 of IAF
Could it be that India similarly blocked purchase of Rafale which would been perfect omnirole platform for a small force like PAF by promising to buy Rafale.
And since PAF would have bought 2 squadrons of Rafale India also ordered just 36 thereby keeping the promise she made, once it became clear that Dassault has no business sense and is doomed/content to remain a cottage aerospace company.

@taybigay @halloween @Gabriel92


Most air forces in this world consider 36 to be huge number bro.
36 is perfectly viable and accetable number for cutting edge fighters until FGFA is inducted.

U are lookin from Pakistan point of view but the thing is India already operate small number of mirage . Same way rafale will be operated . Additional 18 if Rafale shift it's production facilities to India as second line . Rest all are Frances hope.

But why India should by more rafale which is 150 mil a fighter excluding other expenses ? Like missiles etc . When India will have FGFA and MK2 at advanced stage when all 36 is delivered or at least till another 18 arrives ?

 

[The Great One]

This is conjecture on my part but please bear with me.
It is well known that India blocked avionics deal for JF 17 by placing an order of deep upgradation of Mirage 2k-5 of IAF
Could it be that India similarly blocked purchase of Rafale which would been perfect omnirole platform for a small force like PAF by promising to buy Rafale.
And since PAF would have bought 2 squadrons of Rafale India also ordered just 36 thereby keeping the promise she made, once it became clear that Dassault has no business sense and is doomed/content to remain a cottage aerospace company.

@taybigay @halloween @Gabriel92


Most air forces in this world consider 36 to be huge number bro.
36 is perfectly viable and accetable number for cutting edge fighters until FGFA is inducted.

And what about our deteriorating sqadron nos. Whose gonna replace that. Whose gonna replace Mig 23, Mig 27 and Jaguars? You think all this is a farce?

 

[topgun047]

U are lookin from Pakistan point of view but the thing is India already operate small number of mirage . Same way rafale will be operated . Additional 18 if Rafale shift it's production facilities to India as second line . Rest all are Frances hope.

But why India should by more rafale which is 150 mil a fighter excluding other expenses ? Like missiles etc . When India will have FGFA and MK2 at advanced stage when all 36 is delivered or at least till another 18 arrives ?

That is my point exactly. 36 by itself is a perfectly acceptable number for setting up logistics and training.PAF too wanted 36 Rafales which would perfect succesors for amazingly omnirole F 16 in 4.5 gen category

Does that PAF would been morons for ordering just 36?

I have been thinking about India buying Rafale not because they are perfect fit in IAF(they not since IAF has Su 30 in 4.t gen already) but to keep them away from PAF for whom Rafale would have been perfect.
What do you think of my theory @Bang Galore @Oscar

And what about our deteriorating sqadron nos. Whose gonna replace that. Whose gonna replace Mig 23, Mig 27 and Jaguars? You think all this is a farce?

Mig 23s are already retired and Mig 27s are lame duck ground attack aircraft that were obsolete on induction if we go by latest IAF standards.
In terms of ability they have already been replaced by Su 30s, Mirage-Jaguar-Mig 29 upgrades which gave them higher payload and more hard points when compared to what they had the time mig 27s were inducted.

 

[Abingdonboy]

My friend in which world are you living ?

Most air forces in this world consider 36 to be huge number bro.
36 is perfectly viable and accetable number for cutting edge fighters until FGFA is inducted.
Of course there could be more but 36 by itself is also perfectly fine.

Brothers this is something I have talked about in length with friends of mine who are working in this industry. For the fourth largest airforce in the world 36 Rafales is simply unviable. In no reality are the IAF going to induct a mere 2 Sqns of a new type (at a time when they already operate so many types), no one seems to understand the huge logistical, maintenance and training commitment it takes to induct a new type of a/c, let alone a fighter, into an AF. The IAF would have to set up new MRO facilities, have pilots and ground crews extensively trained on the new type, have TACDE work out the combat manuals/practices for the new type (taking up to 18 months), set up a new line of logistics, create stockpiles of entirely different spares from what it currently has in service, liaise with new OEMs- all for 36 jets, are you serious? No way buddy! It simply wouldn't be worth it to go to all this trouble for the sake of such a limited amount of a/c, not for an AF the size of the IAF- the law of economies of scale is more pronounced than ever for the IAF.

I have spoken to a few people informed in these matters (defence sales) and they said the minimum number it would make sense for the IAF to induct would be around 80 as this would create the requisite base as far as instructors, simulators and spares would be concerned. 36 is simply not a viable number and the GoI would, rightly, get their backsides handed to them in CAG report year after year if this took place. Not one of the people I spoke to believed the final number of Rafales in IAF colours would be 36.It would actually be more beneficial for the IAF NOT to induct such small amount of these jets if that were the case.


The conclusion I am left with is either a) The PM has made a solely political decision that brings NOTHING for India and the DM is nothing but the PM's puppet who has rubber stamped the decision and has thus failed to do his job (giving the forces the equipment they need in sufficient quantities). b) a lot more Rafales are going to be ordered and made in India.

 

[anant_s]

I have spoken to a few people informed in these matters (defence sales) and they said the minimum number it would make sense for the IAF to induct would be around 80 as this would create the requisite base as far as instructors, simulators and spares would be concerned. 36 is simply not a viable number and the GoI would, rightly, get their backsides handed to them in CAG report year after year if this took place. Not one of the people I spoke to believed the final number of Rafales in IAF colours would be 36.It would actually be more beneficial for the IAF NOT to induct such small amount of these jets if that were the case.

In the grand scheme of things (the much talked about 42 squadron number), having 2 squadrons of a pretty capable machine doesnot make anykind of sense.
Even Ex ACMs have openly said that 36 is too low a number and just to have them will not make any operational sense.
All these things point out that more orders will be placed.
& i'm also following the statement given by DM, wherein one point stands out viz by ordering 36 pieces at a very competitive price government has actually saved money (in terms of long term capital budget commitment). If we go about ordering Rafales (French or Indian make) in small tranches, overall expenditure will remain low and allow government to decide actual requirement based on IAF's feedback.
we must applaud government's approach in matter whereby a quick solution to MMRCA logjam has been made.
In long term planning if after 10 years IAF operates 90-100 Rafales it would practically serve the same purpose as MMRCA intended to and perhaps at a much lower cost.

 

[topgun047]

Brothers this is something I have talked about in length with friends of mine who are working in this industry. For the fourth largest airforce in the world 36 Rafales is simply unviable. In no reality are the IAF going to induct a mere 2 Sqns of a new type (at a time when they already operate so many types), no one seems to understand the huge logistical, maintenance and training commitment it takes to induct a new type of a/c, let alone a fighter, into an AF. The IAF would have to set up new MRO facilities, have pilots and ground crews extensively trained on the new type, have TACDE work out the combat manuals/practices for the new type (taking up to 18 months), set up a new line of logistics, create stockpiles of entirely different spares from what it currently has in service, liaise with new OEMs- all for 36 jets, are you serious? No way buddy! It simply wouldn't be worth it to go to all this trouble for the sake of such a limited amount of a/c, not for an AF the size of the IAF- the law of economies of scale is more pronounced than ever for the IAF.

I have spoken to a few people informed in these matters (defence sales) and they said the minimum number it would make sense for the IAF to induct would be around 80 as this would create the requisite base as far as instructors, simulators and spares would be concerned. 36 is simply not a viable number and the GoI would, rightly, get their backsides handed to them in CAG report year after year if this took place. Not one of the people I spoke to believed the final number of Rafales in IAF colours would be 36.It would actually be more beneficial for the IAF NOT to induct such small amount of these jets if that were the case.


The conclusion I am left with is either a) The PM has made a solely political decision that brings NOTHING for India and the DM is nothing but the PM's puppet who has rubber stamped the decision and has thus failed to do his job (giving the forces the equipment they need in sufficient quantities). b) a lot more Rafales are going to be ordered and made in India.

Size of IAF does not matter, we are only discussing if a standalone number of 36 Rafale is viable or not.Which I proved it is.

IAF can buy more Rafales for numbers or some other jet.Economy of scale argument supports my case here. That is exactly my point more - Rafale will only be ordered if Rafale is the most cost effective option when last of the 36 ordered has been delivered and inducted.There is no way knowing for sure what the situation will be by the time France has delivered of the 36 ordered.Perhaps this is reason France is in rush to supply to IAF.Need for Rafales is decreasing by the day.

There is no guarantee of that.MOD may find in 2022 that it is better to spend money on LCA, FGFA or AMCA in any combination than on Rafale.

Also please name these "friends working in the industry" and provide their credentials if you want to bring that into the discussion.Even invite them them here and let them speak for themselves.
Also please provide the proof for unsubstanciated points like, and I am paraphrasing "around 90 jets are needed for logistics, training, developing tactics of a new platform"
By this logic Egypt and Qatar should not induct Rafale and India should never have inducted Mirage or Mig 29 since according to you it makes no sense to induct a small number of a specific type.I am sorry to say but this is utter nonsense.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Size of IAF does not matter, we are only discussing if a standalone number of 36 Rafale is viable or not.Which I proved it is.

The size of the IAF doesn't matter? Really???

And I'm sorry my friend, you have not in any way proven that a pitiful 36 number is viable for the IAF.

IAF can buy more Rafales for numbers or some other jet.

The IAF HAS to buy more Rafales but there is ZERO chance a different jet is going to be procured in addition to the Rafale- that would be absurd.

That is exactly my point more - Rafale will only be ordered if Rafale is the most cost effective option when last of the 36 ordered has been delivered and inducted.

The fact the GoI has gone for the Rafale is a clear indication more Rafales are on their way for the IAF.

Need for Rafales is decreasing by the day.

On the contrary- the PLAAF is growing in both quantity and quality day by day and the only fighters the IAF is inducting is the MKI (plagued by reliability issues relative to the Rafale) and the LCA (teething issues are to be expected). The FGFA is nowhere to be seen and the AMCA is a paper plane. The Rafale meets the needs of today and the foreseeable future, there is nothing (AMCA, MKI, LCA or FGFA) that provides a suitable substitute and the IAF knows this and the GoI should also.

There is no guarantee of that.MOD may find in 2022 that it is better to spend money on LCA, FGFA or AMCA in any combination than on Rafale.

The 36 Rafales will all be delivered by 2017/18, the 2022 timeframe will be FAR too late.

By this logic Egypt and Qatar should not induct Rafale and India should never have inducted Mirage or Mig 29 since according to you it makes no sense to induct a small number of a specific type.I am sorry to say but this is utter nonsense.

You simply cannot compare Egypt or Qatar to India.The limited number of Rafales will be the pride of those respective AFs and their entire infrastructure will be built around those jets. 2 Sqns of Rafales will be a tiny, tiny part of the IAF but will require entirely new, unique and separate infrastructure for just 2 Sqns. Considering the IAF will have the Jaguars, MKis, MiG-29UPGs, Mirage 2000Is and LCAs all in service by 2017 all in larger numbers than 36 all requiring their own logistics, training, spares, servicing etc etc please tell me how it is viable and cost effective to support such a pitiful number of Rafales? Think about how many more airbases the IAF has, how many more pilots, how many more BRDs, how many more training centres, how many more types of fighters etc etc as compared to Egypt and Qatar- there is just no comparison. For an Airforce the size of the IAF just 36 fighters will be a HUGE burden and not a boost at all. 2 Sqns will never make a difference to the overall health of the IAF.


Like I have said, there are only two options- 1) this is a great move by the DM/GoI to break the MMRCA deadlock and get a serious number of Rafales for the IAF (90+) OR 2) This is a political decision that is going to cost the IAF (and by extension Indian taxpayer) HEAVILY in the years to come.

In the grand scheme of things (the much talked about 42 squadron number), having 2 squadrons of a pretty capable machine doesnot make anykind of sense.

Exactly right, for just 5% (approximately) the IAF fighter stream would have to be setting up a completely new line of training, combat manuals, supplies, spares, maintenance, contracts with OEMs, base infrastructure etc etc if anyone thinks this is viable or cost effective they are being intentionally naive.

No way in hell is the IAF going to get just 36 Rafales- the IAF would rather get 0 Rafales than such a small number.

 

[topgun047]

I have repeatedly said 36 is perfectly fine number when it comes to logistics training and tactics.I have given example of numerous air forces.Do you accept this?

Instead of arguing semantics give proof how it is economically unviable to support just 36 Rafales and how India is guaranteed to buy more Rafale in future.
Please be specific with facts.

Once it is proven 36 Rafale order is good enough standalone number your assertion that GOI is a bunch of idiots unless they order another batch of Rafales falls flat.
If that were true France would simply raise the price of next batch knowing that morons at GOI dug themselves into a hole by ordering just 36.That is what you are suggesting.

Whereas in my theory GOI has cut its losses at 36 fulfilling the promise to keep Rafale out of PAF by matching the number PAF would have bought.This has brought them autonomy when time comes to order next batch of Rafales.They can keep the number at 36 which is totally acceptable or buy more Rafales if threat matrix, strategic obligations and economic conditions synergize at the time.
@Abingdonboy