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Creating a new Medina

Jinnah wanted Pakistan and India to live like the US and Canada. Distinct, sovereign, independent states. This also should be a kick in the face of our pseudo islamic thugs who take killing and subverting minorities, destroying temples and force converting girls they want to sleep with as a national sport.

We were once a minority, Jinnah turned us into a majority but we abused our newly gained power. If we Pakistanis don't reform, our future will be as certain as Zionist Israel's future is. We created Pakistan so we could have a name, an identity, self rule and rights. If we keep doing to our minorities what we averted for ourselves by creating Pakistan, we are defying the very logic Pakistan as an idea was born out of!

We betray our promise to Jinnah every freaking day. We commit murder and treat our minorities like mosquitos. We defy our fundamentals and if we do not stop, none of us would be able to stop us from becoming a minority again.!
 
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Politics dude ,politics
yes,even BJP too no more different from rest...Kerala BJP unit seems hell bend for Mani congres support..Today they posted a pro mani article in their newspaper 'Janamabhoomi' and wanting him to join NDA fold..we all know who is mani??..he will do anything for his pretty personal needs...

I think our current benchmark is China.
yeah..look how they are progressing in every fields...i think we should change our mentality..we are more looking into stupid religious/caste issues rather than development..two days ago a clash was occurred in UP because of halwa(might be the first time in the world)..
 
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Jinnah wanted Pakistan and India to live like the US and Canada. Distinct, sovereign, indenepndant states.

This also should be a kick in the face of our pseudoislamic thugs who take killing and subverting minorities, destroying temples and force converting girls they want to sleep with as a national sport.

We were once a minority, Jinnah turned us into a majority but we abused our newly gained power. If we Pakistanis don't reform, our future will be as certain as Zionist Israel's future is.

We created Pakistan so we could have a name, an identity, self rule and rights. If we keep doing to our minorities what we averted for ourselves by creating Pakistan, we are defying the very logic Pakistan as an idea was born out of!

We betray our promise to Jinnah every freaking day. We commit murder and treat our minorities like mosquitos. We defy our fundamentals and if we do not stop, none of us would be able to stop us from becoming a minority again.!

Jinnah forsee a secular nation that can compete India in economic,S&T ,social reformation etc and all other fields .But his dreamed died out with his death.
Other leaders in Pakistan betrayed him.
 
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Jinnah forsee a secular nation that can compete India in economic,S&T ,social reformation etc and all other fields .But his dreamed died out with his death.
Other leaders in Pakistan betrayed him.

Yara, Secularism is 'HIGHLY' overrated.

I can point out to dozens of Secular states which have brutally failed in creating equity between its citizenry.

What Pakistan needs is not theocracy or secularism but egaliterianism.

A non egaliterian state, secular or not will fail its citizens. For becoming egalitetian we ought to change our thought process as an inclusive society is born out of an inclusive social mindset.

@Irfan Baloch @Icarus FYI ^
 
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We are. There is no second guessing on this.

Though saying that India is ahead of Pakistan is rather like saying in a land of the blind, the one eyed man is better/king. We have a long way to go, but there is no doubt that as a nation we are ahead of Pakistan.
I pray every day that Pakistan could be like India. :rofl:
 
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67 years passed.Fortunately we Indians successfully overcome all of these challenges we faced during all these years.

About Pakistan.let them tell about their condition.


I see it otherwise. In 1947, we were not essentially a nation to compete with our immediate neighbour. We had our own set of challenges. Under Nehru's convincing guidance India was bound to adopt a socialist framework, not only liberating all the poor, under privileged or the oppressed from the tutelage of hundred years of economic suppression but to remove the thousand years of socio-religious dogmas and superstitions. There was also a serious challenge to its leaders to find a workable solution (solution that would Two Nation theory) under which the Hindus and Muslims would live peacefully.

After almost seventy years, have we achieved all of these? People had their taste of economic liberation but India is far from being a socialist country. The gap between the rich and its poor is increasing day by day. Despite the fact that India has an enviable number of people dwelling in Middle income group, the number of poor living in it is an astonishingly unbelievable figure. Our basic rights like education, health care, drinking water or sanitation are still luxury to most of its people. The unfortunate dwellers in the tribal areas still depend on quacks and witchcraft to cure the unwell. We are living in an age where still Nido Taniams get mocked and secluded by their fellow countrymen. Did Gandhi and Nehru envisage this? I guess no.

Lastly, those who are convinced enough to draw a distinct line of civilian liberty and religious tolerance between India and Pakistan should be careful before doing so. Sachar committee report has not been a good mark on India’s record of treating its minorities with respect if not in utmost equality. The recent frequent religious riots (who’s ever fault it is) is a proof that there are plenty reasons to rethink our minority policy so far which had been abused by appeasement politics by our self proclaimed secular leaders. It has only hardened the religious right wingers day by day.


So, in my view we are far from being successful as the word “success” was seen seventy years ago and there is no scope for self satisfaction and self amusement.
 
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Jinnah called himself as representatives of all Indian Muslims, India still have both the communities and hardly few of the Muslim from Hindu majority provinces went to Pakistan. I can't understand, how the problem was solved in Jinnah's logic.

Problem was solved because you did not see the alternative which would have actually been worse. I have written at length earlier and elsewhere that formation of Pakistan ensured that rest of India could develop with lesser internal fissures.

You can not argue against facts. Pakistan is a fact.

@nair , @Ravi Nair , @Contrarian , I have read your posts on the first page.

Contrarian is right in that India is a bit better off than Pakistan. There is no denying it. However, I must point out since I am old enough to remember very well, that Pakistan was far better off than India until the mid-90s. During the 80s Pakistanis were convinced of the superiority of their position. Though we lagged in education, we were better off in every other department. Only those sectors that had some sort of relevance to the absolute size of economy, consumers, and land area, was India ahead of Pakistan. A pertinent example would be Heavy Industry, or pharmaceutical Industry.

In any case, Pakistanis enjoyed better living standards, higher per capita income, number of privately owned vehicles, etc... Airlines, Railways, public transport were all doing very well. All this while we had USSR at our door-step.

Our fundamental weakness was the lack of systematic approach in institutions which keep a country stable. We had a dictatorship, our experienced politicians were a dying breed. The mirage of growth had yet to confront a phase of political immaturity and the second round of PPP's socialist policies.

Jinnah was right in so many ways. Pakistan was to be a leading country for Muslims. It was supposed to lead in certain ways. But the challenges that were heaped upon Pakistan were too much.

The treasury was empty. There was an acute shortage of resources. Also that of relevant experts. No industry to speak of. A largely illiterate population and very poor infrastructure. The two sections of the country were far apart and had totally different cultural, ethnic, linguistic, economic, and aspirational differences.

Somebody earlier (in the first 2 or 3 posts) has remarked about difficulties faced by India. In comparison to India, Pakistan had a lot more. Way more in problems and challenges.

But the biggest challenge is what bothers us in Pakistan even now. We made fast progress in establishing functioning institutions, industry, technical knowledge base, administrative expertise etc... But we failed in establishing democratic norms, institutions, and distribution of powers. This is where India had the definitive edge over Pakistan.

In some ways Pakistan as a country is a work-in-progress unlike India. Muslims in general are reactionary, given to obsessing about conspiracy theories, ever awaiting a messiah, and confused about establishing legitimate governance structures. Any madman can give us a vision of a mirage and we fall like suckers. It is so very challenging to get rid of this mentality. This is our unique marker; our bane; our distasteful inheritance.

Had our Quaid lived longer, we would have been spared a lot of these problems. But tribulations are from Allah. What happens does so, because it is decreed. One can not argue against Kismet. One can only try. And we have been trying. And we shall continue trying until by God with get it right. No dictator has ever been comfortable in power in Pakistan. This country does not accept illegitimacy. We have always clung to our rights.

As we traverse a road to democracy, Pakistan might emerge as the only country with over-whelming majority of Muslims that successfully decodes the problem of maintaining an Islamic identity with democratic norms. In this way we may be of some value to the wider Islamic world. This, I think, is our destiny.
 
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Problem was solved because you did not see the alternative which would have actually been worse. I have written at length earlier and elsewhere that formation of Pakistan ensured that rest of India could develop with lesser internal fissures.

You can not argue against facts. Pakistan is a fact.

@nair , @Ravi Nair , @Contrarian , I have read your posts on the first page.

Contrarian is right in that India is a bit better off than Pakistan. There is no denying it. However, I must point out since I am old enough to remember very well, that Pakistan was far better off than India until the mid-90s. During the 80s Pakistanis were convinced of the superiority of their position. Though we lagged in education, we were better off in every other department. Only those sectors that had some sort of relevance to the absolute size of economy, consumers, and land area, was India ahead of Pakistan. A pertinent example would be Heavy Industry, or pharmaceutical Industry.

In any case, Pakistanis enjoyed better living standards, higher per capita income, number of privately owned vehicles, etc... Airlines, Railways, public transport were all doing very well. All this while we had USSR at our door-step.

Our fundamental weakness was the lack of systematic approach in institutions which keep a country stable. We had a dictatorship, our experienced politicians were a dying breed. The mirage of growth had yet to confront a phase of political immaturity and the second round of PPP's socialist policies.

Jinnah was right in so many ways. Pakistan was to be a leading country for Muslims. It was supposed to lead in certain ways. But the challenges that were heaped upon Pakistan were too much.

The treasury was empty. There was an acute shortage of resources. Also that of relevant experts. No industry to speak of. A largely illiterate population and very poor infrastructure. The two sections of the country were far apart and had totally different cultural, ethnic, linguistic, economic, and aspirational differences.

Somebody earlier (in the first 2 or 3 posts) has remarked about difficulties faced by India. In comparison to India, Pakistan had a lot more. Way more in problems and challenges.

But the biggest challenge is what bothers us in Pakistan even now. We made fast progress in establishing functioning institutions, industry, technical knowledge base, administrative expertise etc... But we failed in establishing democratic norms, institutions, and distribution of powers. This is where India had the definitive edge over Pakistan.

In some ways Pakistan as a country is a work-in-progress unlike India. Muslims in general are reactionary, given to obsessing about conspiracy theories, ever awaiting a messiah, and confused about establishing legitimate governance structures. Any madman can give us a vision of a mirage and we fall like suckers. It is so very challenging to get rid of this mentality. This is our unique marker; our bane; our distasteful inheritance.

Had our Quaid lived longer, we would have been spared a lot of these problems. But tribulations are from Allah. What happens does so, because it is decreed. One can not argue against Kismet. One can only try. And we have been trying. And we shall continue trying until by God with get it right. No dictator has ever been comfortable in power in Pakistan. This country does not accept illegitimacy. We have always clung to our rights.

As we traverse a road to democracy, Pakistan might emerge as the only country with over-whelming majority of Muslims that successfully decodes the problem of maintaining an Islamic identity with democratic norms. In this way we may be of some value to the wider Islamic world. This, I think, is our destiny.

As I mentioned, it did solved the problem politically because the Muslim League and Congress were opposite to each other in ideology and with a united India, it would had been extremely difficult for India to bring widespread reforms and suitable system for India. But ideologically, I can't understand how it solved the problem, when almost all of the Muslims in Hindu majority provinces stayed back.

Also you said Pakistan had no industry but agriculture in Punjab was developed and Pakistan thus inherited high food grain production to tackle the problem of the new nation, India wasn't that much lucky, it was only after the Green revolution, the food shortage problem could be solved in India.
 
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As I mentioned, it did solved the problem politically because the Muslim League and Congress were opposite to each other in ideology and with a united India, it would had been extremely difficult for India to bring widespread reforms and suitable system for India. But ideologically, I can't understand how it solved the problem, when almost all of the Muslims in Hindu majority provinces stayed back.

Also you said Pakistan had no industry but agriculture in Punjab was developed and Pakistan thus inherited high food grain production to tackle the problem of the new nation, India wasn't that much lucky, it was only after the Green revolution, the food shortage problem could be solved in India.

Pakistan had to invest very heavily in agricultural infrastructure to compensate for uneven (and unjust) division of Punjab. We had to construct two massive dams, and extensive water distribution network. India did not need to do that. We in Pakistan did face shortages because of lack of irrigation water because it was diverted by India.

Your point about a 'problem' not being solved does not make sense. When Muslim majority areas were made into Pakistan, a major axis of instability was sidelined. I am not at all sure that India as a country would have survived with such a huge fissure. I seriously mean it. Imagine a communal riot in Bihar being replicated in Punjab. This would have been quite bad. There was no denying Pakistan. It would have happened in any case.
 
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Pakistan had to invest very heavily in agricultural infrastructure to compensate for uneven (and unjust) division of Punjab. We had to construct two massive dams, and extensive water distribution network. India did not need to do that. We in Pakistan did face shortages because of lack of irrigation water because it was diverted by India.

Your point about a 'problem' not being solved does not make sense. When Muslim majority areas were made into Pakistan, a major axis of instability was sidelined. I am not at all sure that India as a country would have survived with such a huge fissure. I seriously mean it. Imagine a communal riot in Bihar being replicated in Punjab. This would have been quite bad. There was no denying Pakistan. It would have happened in any case.

I believe that happened after Indus water treaty but still the land of Punjab had very high agricultural output. I mentioned Muslim League was voted by the people of North-West and East Bengal, thus partition solved the problem politically because the Muslim League was out and there was no hurdle for Congress to constitute a constituent assembly and working in peace for the future of India. Those Muslims who lived in Hindu majority provinces are still here, so ideally I can't understand how Jinnah vision towards them was fulfilled with partition, as they left behind to live in 80-90% Hindu majority provinces as they were living before partition. Liaquat Ali Khan even declared 14% reservation for Muhajirs to attract Muslim migration from India.
 
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Sorry to disagree to all of you.
If one look closely at Pakistan's history,culture and politics,then violence and instability would be the fate of Pakistan ultimately.Due to Cold war politics , Pakistan received aid and prestige from West and thus artificially sustained till nineties.When Pakistan walked without support of west ,it stumbled.

Pakistan do not have basic tenants of a democracy-equality,liberty and fraternity.

No Equality- Medieval notion of Feudal setup as Landlords and tenets.No land reform done. How on the face of earth Landlord and democracy can co-exists !!
No Liberty- Neither freedom of expression nor freedom of religious practices. 'Might is right' principle is the order of the day.
Partial fraternity-Though Muslims are theoretically a brotherhood but nationalist ideas co-exist with it like Punjabi,Sindhi,Pathan and Baloch etc

India had initially same society as Pakistan and may be some exist even now also . but India has chosen right Path right after dawn of independence. Destroyed landlords,declared unaccountability as crime, keep religious tolerance intact , deftly handled Language diversity,created IITs IIMs etc. Yes there was some deviations from the Path but our constitution remained a guiding light.

In Pakistan's case Politicians were selfish. Generals needed support for their rule. Politician and generals rather than taking nation forward they take back people into medieval era.Inequality and illiberalism is itself contained in the constitution and it's laws.
 
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For most of our history Pakistan has been a more successful state

it was only from the 90's onwards could that statement not be made




Indians are acting like thats it, all finished now

both nations have immense obstacles to overcome and Pakistan is still faring better than india on a whole range of measures from food security to poverty

Pakistan has not collapsed regardless of the circumstances and things are beginning to slowly improve

We will prevail and continue to oppose india
 
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During these 67 years journey we faced 5 wars,countless sanctions ,insurgencies etc .We faced some unique challenges that no other nations dont had to face in their history ,even our neighbour Pakistan .
Churchil gave us 20 years time for our nationhood when we got independence from them.But hey still we are here .
Democracy is joke in most of the third world nations.But somehow we still remain as tge most dynamic democracy in this world.We can said against Congress whatever we want.But their PMs including Nehru always give us a good way .He had a courage for establishing ISRO when our citizens face dire poverty and constant criticism from opposition.

You are right we are still facing a lot of challenges .Seven of our states is in a sub saharan standard with half of our 125 crore population.
But I have an average satisfaction about all these 67 years.
But still a longway to go.
Pakistan also has faced 4 wars, insurgency the largest refugee population coming into the country, more sanctions than india and yet still before 2007 pakistan was developing faster than india. Our 5 year plans were used by south korea. Pia was the best airline in the 70s and helped start emirates.
Btw nehru said pakistan wont survive 6 months and look what happened we are still here but he isnt
 
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During these 67 years journey we faced 5 wars,countless sanctions ,insurgencies etc .We faced some unique challenges that no other nations dont had to face in their history ,even our neighbour Pakistan .
Churchil gave us 20 years time for our nationhood when we got independence from them.But hey still we are here .
Democracy is joke in most of the third world nations.But somehow we still remain as tge most dynamic democracy in this world.We can said against Congress whatever we want.But their PMs including Nehru always give us a good way .He had a courage for establishing ISRO when our citizens face dire poverty and constant criticism from opposition.

You are right we are still facing a lot of challenges .Seven of our states is in a sub saharan standard with half of our 125 crore population.
But I have an average satisfaction about all these 67 years.
But still a longway to go.

I think you missed world bank report, only Lanka of ravan have less poverty then Pak in South Asia. Or the fact that 60% of hindus like to shit in open like animals. And you also missed latest report about South Asia hunger problem which explain weak hindu phisique.
 
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