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Counter Article on “Stop Wasteful Military Deals”

vivINDIAN

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SOURCE: EXPRESS NEWS SERVICE

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In his article “Stop Wasteful Military Deals” published in The New Indian Express on November 1, 2013, Bharat Karnad attempts to reinvent himself as a knight in shining armour charging fearlessly at the Indian Air Force (IAF) on behalf of an imaginary indigenous brigade. By casting aspersions and denigrating the IAF’s commitment to indigenisation based on inputs that range from flights of fantasy to half-baked truths and very few realities, Karnad is playing a dangerous game which has the potential to jeopardise national security.

Whenever civilian analysts and researchers offer critiques on military systems or strategies they do so with meticulous research that stands the test of rigorous professional scrutiny. Karnad adopts no such methodology and rides on his past reputation of being a maverick armchair defence analyst with a general disdain for the establishment.

Let me dismantle some of his propositions. First is that his claim that French and Israeli pilots have gone gaga over the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is sheer bunkum — no foreign pilot has flown the LCA — period. The LCA Flight Test Team comprises IAF and Indian Navy test pilots who are among the best in the world and do not need any certification from the French or Israelis. The Russian sale of the Tu-22 M3M strategic bomber along with its entire assembly line to China is a deal that has fallen through — the Internet is full of news of the falling through of the deal. Karnad talks of a fictitious trainer aircraft called the HJT-44 being “up and ready” and questions the proposal to buy additional PC-7 Pilatus Basic Trainer aircraft.

The truth is that the training aircraft being offered by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is called the HTT-40 and is still on the drawing board! A word about the Pilatus PC-7 and the circumstances of its induction into the IAF. Plagued by a series of problems on the HPT-32, the IAF’s long-standing basic trainer aircraft, the IAF brainstormed for years with the HAL to resuscitate the trainer. When all attempts failed and when the IAF saw that there were just no trainers to address the needs of basic flying training, it had to literally go in for an emergency purchase of 75 Pilatus Trainers to ensure that the stream of pilots from the training academy to the operational squadrons does not stop.

With the requirement of trained pilot set to increase with the induction of large numbers of twin-seat Sukhois, C-130 J Super Hercules, C-17s and Mi-17 V5 helicopters, the IAF had to take decisive measures even if it meant having to import basic trainers. The Pilatus has been a resounding success at the Air Force Academy and with its excellent pedigree, reliability and global flight safety track record, $1.5 billion is a small price for an emerging power to pay for ensuring the safety of hundreds of our young flight cadets and instructors.

As for the follow-on purchase — it makes logistical and supply chain management sense to buy some more of the same aircraft considering that an indigenous basic trainer is not going to be “up and away” for at least a decade.

Going back to the seventies and the saga of the HF-24 Marut fighter, it is common knowledge that the Marut programme came to a premature end because we could not design or import a suitable engine for the aircraft and sustaining the two squadrons with derated Gnat engines was not going to be an operationally viable proposition for long.

The ensuing Jaguar deal was, without any doubt, one of the most successful deals in more ways than one for both the IAF and HAL. The manner in which the aircraft has been exploited by the IAF ushered in a new era of professionalism in the force; over three decades later, it still remains at the forefront of the IAF’s strike capability. Staying with the Jaguar, the licensed manufacture of the Jaguar by HAL and the quantum indigenous upgradation in its avionics, radar and weapon systems in India itself has provided both Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and HAL with tremendous confidence to leverage the same for development of indigenous aircraft design and manufacturing capability.

Coming back to the LCA, Karnad is confused whether to call it the LCA or the Tejas. Let me set the record straight. The IAF has named the LCA as the Tejas; the Indian Navy is yet to decide on a name for the LCA. Karnad has also gone totally wrong in equating the LCA with the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) by suggesting that the Mark II can be a used as an MMRCA. The two aircraft are completely different in terms of the weight class (the LCA is a 13 ton fighter, while the MMRCA is a 20 ton fighter). What this means is that the missions and roles they can perform are completely different. So is the range and the tonnage of armament that they can carry. For the common aviation enthusiast, the LCA can be said to be a replacement for the MiG-21, while the MMRCA is slated to occupy a mid-position between the LCA and the Su-30 in the years ahead.

To be fair to Karnad — yes, the flight control system of the LCA is top class, but to claim that the Mark II will be significantly superior to the MMRCA is far-fetched and devoid of any research strength. Blowing one’s trumpet about the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar is premature at this stage, as it is not even on the drawing board. In such a situation it is not even clear whether it would be on the LCA Mk II. Having said that, the IAF is fully committed to the LCA and will share the same pride that Karnad exhibits when its first squadron becomes operational. The IAF is also cognisant that it remains the single largest repository of operational aviation knowledge in the country and to accuse it of scuttling indigenisation, as Karnad so easily does, is both unfair and dangerous. Let us not undermine the IAF in such a callous and cavalier manner.

Arjun Subramaniam is a serving Air Vice Marshal in the IAF and an air power analyst.
 
Good to hear some common sense. The original article was garbage.
 
It is indeed an irony that nobody sees the decades of 90s when there was virtually no addition to IAF's inventory. Now that IAF has started to make amends to what can be called as Lost Decade, we have armchair experts calling all this wasteful.
I suppose it is best to leave it to defence forces to decide what is vital for them.
 
No doubt LCA MK 2 will be a low weight light class fighter but will have the MMRCA capability as rightly pointed out by Mr. Karnad. It will be able to carry more than 5.5 tons of payload and will have a very improved thrust to weight ration batter than what was specified for MMRCA (1.1). It will have more that 3 tons (3 to 3.4 tons) of fuel with full composite body and 400 to 500 KG lower weight compare to MK 1, refined aerodynamics and redesigned air intake. As I heard from saraswat himself, a small array of AESA is already functional. After all India has many indigenous AESA functional radar either on the ground and on AWE&C. MK2 will be significantly batter than MK1. It will have all the capability we had laid down for MMRCA. And yes, In 20 BN we can develop huge infrastructure of aviation industry and can make India a Hub of aviation with a huge research, testing and manufacturing infrastructure. I think that Mr. karnad has some valid point though it is difficult to agree with the whole article.
 
No doubt LCA MK 2 will be a low weight light class fighter but will have the MMRCA capability as rightly pointed out by Mr. Karnad. It will be able to carry more than 5.5 tons of payload and will have a very improved thrust to weight ration batter than what was specified for MMRCA (1.1). It will have more that 3 tons (3 to 3.4 tons) of fuel with full composite body and 400 to 500 KG lower weight compare to MK 1, refined aerodynamics and redesigned air intake. As I heard from saraswat himself, a small array of AESA is already functional. After all India has many indigenous AESA functional radar either on the ground and on AWE&C. MK2 will be significantly batter than MK1. It will have all the capability we had laid down for MMRCA. And yes, In 20 BN we can develop huge infrastructure of aviation industry and can make India a Hub of aviation with a huge research, testing and manufacturing infrastructure. I think that Mr. karnad has some valid point though it is difficult to agree with the whole article.
The LCA MK2 will be a good machine but it won't be anywhere near the level of performance of the twin-engined Rafale F3++, to think otherwise is sheer stupidity.
 
I made precisely these points on PDF before the good air marshal did!:yahoo:

Frankly though, I don't know if ridiculous articles like BK's shoud even be dignified with a response by somebody so high ranking.
 
I made precisely these points on PDF before the good air marshal did!:yahoo:

Frankly though, I don't know if ridiculous articles like BK's shoud even be dignified with a response by somebody so high ranking.
The point is, and I agree, that it needs these kind of actual experts to come out and rip these so-called journalists to shreds before public opinion calls for some scary action. As the AVM said, these sort of assertions are entirely unfounded and, in fact, potentially harmful to India's national security. What if, based on such nonsense, the MMRCA deal gets postponed or the same happens with the PC-7 follow-on deal? Not only are pilots going to die (as they have to fly junk for longer and may not be fully trained on a BTT) but India's national security is compromised.


We've seen this in the case of the RSH/LUH, arty and AW-101 deals, where the Def Min is so spineless that he won't take a decision because he is too scared of any backlash.


An ignorant media feeding lies and half-truths to an equally ignorant public is a a dangerous cocktail. Better to have someone in authority rubbishing such views early on than to let them gain any sort of momentum.



Good on this AVM!
 
The LCA MK2 will be a good machine but it won't be anywhere near the level of performance of the twin-engined Rafale F3++, to think otherwise is sheer stupidity.

I agree that Rafale will have uper hand but it is difficult to agree that difference is too large that even comparing them will be stupidity.

LCA MK 2 will be able to carry 5.5 tons of Payload and able to hit Mach 2 with 26 to 28 degree of AOA and 9.5 g. Can you please elaborate where MK2 will fall too short of Rafale that even comparing them will be stupidity.
 
I agree that Rafale will have uper hand but it is difficult to agree that difference is too large that even comparing them will be stupidity.

LCA MK 2 will be able to carry 5.5 tons of Payload and able to hit Mach 2 with 26 to 28 degree of AOA and 9.5 g. Can you please elaborate where MK2 will fall too short of Rafale that even comparing them will be stupidity.

Check out what the range of LCA will be with a 5.5 ton payload (which implies no external fuel tanks). Then check out Rafale's range.

Combat radius of LCA - 300 m
Combat radius of Rafale - 1300 km

Max combat load of LCA mk1 - 4 tonnes, mk2 - 5.5 tonnes (very optimistic estimate)
Max combat load of Rafale - 9.5 tonnes

Availability of Rafale - In production, battle tested, serving in the French air force and navy, flown combat missions
Availability of LCA mk2 - on paper (even mk1 is not ready yet)

Sensors - no comparison.

Would you mind telling us, in what parameters the Tejas can be considered a medium category aircraft?
 
Check out what the range of LCA will be with a 5.5 ton payload (which implies no external fuel tanks). Then check out Rafale's range.

Combat radius of LCA - 300 m
Combat radius of Rafale - 1300 km

Max combat load of LCA mk1 - 4 tonnes, mk2 - 5.5 tonnes (very optimistic estimate)
Max combat load of Rafale - 9.5 tonnes

Availability of Rafale - In production, battle tested, serving in the French air force and navy, flown combat missions
Availability of LCA mk2 - on paper (even mk1 is not ready yet)

Sensors - no comparison.

Would you mind telling us, in what parameters the Tejas can be considered a medium category aircraft?

CATAGORY
Man Did i say LCA is in medium category?

I said Capability of MMRCA.

Combat Radius

Fuel capacity of 2 engine Rafale is 4700 KG against Single engine LCA MK2 3000 to 3400 KG. So your point of very high combat radius nullifies here.

Speed

MK 2 will have batter speed than rafale 1.8 mach.

Weight Carrying
Obviously single engine plane can not carry as much load as twine engine plane. But 5.5 tons of Tejas (single engine) is certainly as impressive as 8.5 tons (twine Engine) of rafale.

EW Suit

Of course rafale has best in class EW suite. But we do not know the specification of Mayavi. Su 35 is said to have a very high quality EW suite. We can certainly co develop the suit with either Israel or Russia.

The most important thing is that LCA shall be ours. We can change it the way we want.
 
CATAGORY
Man Did i say LCA is in medium category?

I said Capability of MMRCA.

Combat Radius

Fuel capacity of 2 engine Rafale is 4700 KG against Single engine LCA MK2 3000 to 3400 KG. So your point of very high combat radius nullifies here.

Speed

MK 2 will have batter speed than rafale 1.8 mach.

Weight Carrying
Obviously single engine plane can not carry as much load as twine engine plane. But 5.5 tons of Tejas (single engine) is certainly as impressive as 8.5 tons (twine Engine) of rafale.

EW Suit

Of course rafale has best in class EW suite. But we do not know the specification of Mayavi. Su 35 is said to have a very high quality EW suite. We can certainly co develop the suit with either Israel or Russia.

The most important thing is that LCA shall be ours. We can change it the way we want.

And hence you have your answers as to why both are needed. "Obviously a twin engined rafale..."

How is the point of high combat radius nullified? The fact is that the Rafale has a much, much higher combat radius that LCA, which enables several different mission profiles for the Rafale as opposed to the LCA. All that put together - range, payload, sensors - makes Rafale an MRCA, and Tejas an LCA. No, the Tejas does not have the capabilities of an MRCA. And don't nitpick, saying that Tejas "has the capabilities of an MRCA" is no different from saying it is an MRCA.
 
And hence you have your answers as to why both are needed. "Obviously a twin engined rafale..."

How is the point of high combat radius nullified? The fact is that the Rafale has a much, much higher combat radius that LCA, which enables several different mission profiles for the Rafale as opposed to the LCA. All that put together - range, payload, sensors - makes Rafale an MRCA, and Tejas an LCA. No, the Tejas does not have the capabilities of an MRCA. And don't nitpick, saying that Tejas "has the capabilities of an MRCA" is no different from saying it is an MRCA.

How can 4700 Kg fuel capacity (Twine Engine) Plane may have significantly higher combat radius than a single engine 3000 KG fuel capacity plane? Can you Pl explain?

Can you pl tell specifically what criterion Tejas does not meet so we can discuss?

Tejas will meet criterion like load carrying capacity, T/W ratio, Top speed, Super cruise, AOA etc laid down for MMRCA.

I do not say that Tejas will be as capable as rafale but not so behind that even comparison can not be made.

Do you know that Saab Grippen (With almost same capability as Tejas) was a MMRCA contender?
 
How can 4700 Kg fuel capacity (Twine Engine) Plane may have significantly higher combat radius than a single engine 3000 KG fuel capacity plane? Can you Pl explain?

It can. That much is indisputable. Could be due to a less draggy and more aerodynamically optimised design, could be due to the wing shaping, which greatly impacts fuel efficiency, could be because of the fact that twin engine doesn't mean twice the fuel consumption, as the engines won't be flying at max rated thrust, could be due to any number of factors, or a combination of them.

Whatever the reason, the fact remains that the Rafale has a much, much higher combat radius than the LCA, which you can confirm from official sources for both.

Can you pl tell specifically what criterion Tejas does not meet so we can discuss?

Tejas will meet criterion like load carrying capacity, T/W ratio, Top speed, Super cruise, AOA etc laid down for MMRCA.

There were no criteria laid down, at least not that we know of in public domain. So I don't know how you can make assertions like that. Already mentioned the criteria which makes the Tejas a light aircraft and not a medium category one - weight of the airframe itself, payload, range, sensors. Add to that loiter time over target and mission endurance - ie, how many hours it can stay up in the air, how many passes it can have over a target with how much load and so on.

I do not say that Tejas will be as capable as rafale but not so behind that even comparison can not be made.

Do you know that Saab Grippen (With almost same capability as Tejas) was a MMRCA contender?

No. Gripen NG was the competing aircraft, although the trials were done on a gripen c/d. I think a prototype of the NG was also tested. Check out the specs of the gripen-NG, and you will find that it outclasses the gripen c/d in the parameters that I mentioned above. However the IAF was not convinced that the Gripen-NG could be ready in the time frame they want, so expecting an LCA mk2 to be ready in that time when even the mk1 is not ready, would be absurd. Gripen C/D hs been opertional for decades.


Myy responses in red. See, basically different weight categories means different paylods and range, which translates to different mission profiles. Speed is irrelevant to the classification. It's not like a heavy aircraft will be faster than a light one. A flight of Rafales can take off from Pune, hit targets in Karachi and return. Or take off from Agra, hit Peshawar and return. The LCAs will all have to be based in forward air bases if they are to see offensive combat. So the IAF intends LCAs to fly CAP over important cities, leaving the heavies to do long range strike missions. There is a reason (actually many reasons) that they want aircrafts in different categories. An LCA simply cannot do many missions than an MRCA can, and an MRCA cannot be as cheap and prolific as an LCA.
 
@HariPrasad

The simple fact that you use the term "will" so often to describe the MK2 says it all! As of now, there are only "aims" but not a single source about reliable specs is available, not to mention that not even all possible changes are cleared yet.
You put your hope on the MK2 mainly on baseless claims of Mr Saraswat (the most unreliable source that we have in India!) but not on facts. One fact for example is that no matter what payload the MK2 at the end will have, it will not able to carry similar loads to similar ranges like the MMRCAs, by the lack of useful hardpoints!
Simple example, strike with 2000lb Sudarshan LGB with maximum load:

LCA MK2 - 7+1 hardpoints (1 pod station):

1 x 2000lb LGB on the centerline
1 x LDP at the pod station
2 x 1200l fuel tanks at the inner wingstations
2 x BVR missiles
2 x WVR missiles

Roughly 3600Kg payload


Gripen E/F - 8 to 9 +1 hardpoints (depending on load 2 or 3 centerline hardpoints)

2 x 2000lb LGB on the centerline stations
1 x LDP at the pod station
2 x 1700l fuel tanks at the inner wingstations
2 x BVR missiles
2 x WVR missiles

Roughly 5400Kg payload


Rafale - 11 to 12 +2 hardpoints (depending on load 1 or 2 centerline hardpoints)

3 x 2000lb LGB on the centerline and midwing stations
1 x LDP at the pod station
2 x 2000l fuel tanks at the inner wingstations
4 x BVR missiles
2 x WVR missiles

Over 7000Kg payload


As you can see, even if the MK2 "might" (because it's not clear yet) be technically at a similar 4.5th gen level like the MMRCAs (most likely AESA radar and IRST, moder EW sensors...), performance wise it will be far inferior in most roles, especially with heavy loads.
 
You said :
It can. That much is indisputable. Could be due to a less draggy and more aerodynamically optimised design, could be due to the wing shaping, which greatly impacts fuel efficiency, could be because of the fact that twin engine doesn't mean twice the fuel consumption, as the engines won't be flying at max rated thrust, could be due to any number of factors, or a combination of them.

Whatever the reason, the fact remains that the Rafale has a much, much higher combat radius than the LCA, which you can confirm from official sources for both.

My response:

1) You see combat radius is a very confusing term. I check wiki which clearly states the Range 850 KM and ferry range 3000 KM for MK 1. If we go by conservative side even though MK 1 itself can fly 2X850 Km =1700 KM which is not bad at all. If MK 1 can fly 1700 KM than certainly MK2 with additional 40% fuel can at least fly 60 to 70% long distance.(As take off consumes lot more fuel and not cruzing) After all GE404 is a highly fuel efficient engine and GE 41 is even batter in fuel efficiency. Your argument that twine engine does not mean twice fuel consumption is partly true. It may not be double but certainly in the range of 1.6 to 1.8 times. And your Argument that Engines won't be flying at Max thrust holds good for single engine aircraft also. So MK2 will have at least 2800 KM to 3000 KM range. Which is 80 % of rafale.

You said :

There were no criteria laid down, at least not that we know of in public domain. So I don't know how you can make assertions like that. Already mentioned the criteria which makes the Tejas a light aircraft and not a medium category one - weight of the airframe itself, payload, range, sensors. Add to that loiter time over target and mission endurance - ie, how many hours it can stay up in the air, how many passes it can have over a target with how much load and so on.

My response:
Man there were specific criterion laid down. How did they shortlisted Rafale and eurofighter otherwise? I remember Some

1) weight carrying 5.0 tons.
2) T/W ratio 1.1.
3) Some specific AOA, STR etc.

And do not repeat the argument that Tejas is a light aircraft again and again. I never said that is a medium category aircraft. I simply said that It will (MK2) have the MMRCA capabilities.

MK2 will be able to fly at least 70 percent of the time Rafale can fly and will have 70 to 80 percent range of Rafale. And yes 400 to 500 kg weight reduction is planned in MK2 with batter aerodynamic characteristic.

You said :

No. Gripen NG was the competing aircraft, although the trials were done on a gripen c/d. I think a prototype of the NG was also tested. Check out the specs of the gripen-NG, and you will find that it outclasses the gripen c/d in the parameters that I mentioned above. However the IAF was not convinced that the Gripen-NG could be ready in the time frame they want, so expecting an LCA mk2 to be ready in that time when even the mk1 is not ready, would be absurd. Gripen C/D hs been opertional for decades.


My response:

Man the way NG is superior to C/D, MK2 is going to be superior to MK1. MK2 is going to use same or even batter engine compare to NG. It is going to have almost same fuel capacity as NG. So there is absolutely no question of MK2 being much different from NG, Infact MK2 will have much more composite and light in weight.

You said:

Myy responses in red. See, basically different weight categories means different paylods and range, which translates to different mission profiles. Speed is irrelevant to the classification. It's not like a heavy aircraft will be faster than a light one. A flight of Rafales can take off from Pune, hit targets in Karachi and return. Or take off from Agra, hit Peshawar and return. The LCAs will all have to be based in forward air bases if they are to see offensive combat. So the IAF intends LCAs to fly CAP over important cities, leaving the heavies to do long range strike missions. There is a reason (actually many reasons) that they want aircrafts in different categories. An LCA simply cannot do many missions than an MRCA can, and an MRCA cannot be as cheap and prolific as an LCA.

My response:

Mk 2 Can carry out all the mission which Grippen NG can. Mk2 can carryout many Mission (Not all) which Rafale can. Now the question is that is it worth spending so much of amount for Rafale ? Answer is very subjective. I do not say that Rafale should be scrapped but only want to argue that if somebody says that we should focus on MK2 rather than spending huge amount on Rafale, They certainly have the point. After all we have MKIs and Super MKIS which can perform all mission that Rafale can and much more. Even I would prefer Mig 35 as they are almost as much capable as rafale and will come with TOT without any Nonesense that Dassault is creating. They will come at almost 1/3 rd cost. They will come with AESA Radar which Rafale do not have. We can get them configured as per our requirement like MKI.



 
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