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Could India have been an NSG member already? Nehru rejected US offer of help, says new book

Somehow, I feel it was a prudent decision. This happened in 1950's when India had a lot more things to concentrate on.
It's not as if America was offering nuclear tech on a platter to India. May be we could not afford it.

Point is when you reject something you better have the right reason for rejecting it....and/or have a valid substitute. His reason was based more on fanciful Hindi-Chini bhai bhai philosophy....so the focus was almost entirely on nuclear energy with a tiny frivoulous hedge on nuclear weapons research which proceeded so slowly since finances just were not allocated in any reasonable way or structure.

If India was working on the bomb intensely with whatever cooperation it needed from wherever it could get it (there were options outside of US even at that time)....then Nehru would have my respect in this area if he rejected full US patronage/donation of a working design. But he rejected it out stubbornness in his belief of non-alignment and weapons-free, Gandhi-like pacifist world entirely....and thats just his character/personality in a nutshell.

Its same guy sent who underequipped and underfunded jawans for many years and then sent them to icy peaks with no air support and no-retreat policy expecting some miracle to happen....again because of this philosophy of pie in the sky thinking and "everything will happen as you want if you are idealistic about it"...instead of actually planning and doing some basic logical deduction and rationalism....and hoping for the best but preparing for the worst as best you can.

For an atheist guy he certainly believed in a lot of fantastic superstitious like thinking process. Yet another example of statism and leftism filling the void that religion leaves....except this time hypocritical idealistic pacifism is thrown in there too to create the perfect trinity of utter incompetent leadership.

I credit British more to our survival as a political union in early independence than Gandhi and Nehru ....just the sheer bulk of India that British raj created made a coin flip between strong integration/disintegration and nothing in the middle (which would have been the worst) once the partition stabilized. India definitely got lucky, though our Indian culture plays its role in this too.
 
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Point is when you reject something you better have the right reason for rejecting it....and/or have a valid substitute. His reason was based more on fanciful Hindi-Chini bhai bhai philosophy....so the focus was almost entirely on nuclear energy with a tiny frivoulous hedge on nuclear weapons research which proceeded so slowly since finances just were not allocated in any reasonable way or structure.

If India was working on the bomb intensely with whatever cooperation it needed from wherever it could get it (there were options outside of US even at that time)....then Nehru would have my respect in this area if he rejected full US patronage/donation of a working design. But he rejected it out stubbornness in his belief of non-alignment and weapons-free, Gandhi-like pacifist world entirely....and thats just his character/personality in a nutshell.

Its same guy sent who underequipped and underfunded jawans for many years and then sent them to icy peaks with no air support and no-retreat policy expecting some miracle to happen....again because of this philosophy of pie in the sky thinking and "everything will happen as you want if you are idealistic about it"...instead of actually planning and doing some basic logical deduction and rationalism....and hoping for the best but preparing for the worst as best you can.

For an atheist guy he certainly believed in a lot of fantastic superstitious like thinking process. Yet another example of statism and leftism filling the void that religion leaves....except this time hypocritical idealistic pacifism is thrown in there too to create the perfect trinity of utter incompetent leadership.

I credit British more to our survival as a political union in early independence than Gandhi, Nehru and Congress....just the sheer bulk of India that British raj created made a coin flip between strong integration/disintegration and nothing in the middle (which would have been the worst) once the partition stabilized. India definitely got lucky, though our Indian culture plays its role in this too.


I agree with you entirely but do not forget leaders like Patel and Netaji who made India united, not the british.
 
I agree with you entirely but do not forget leaders like Patel and Netaji who made India united, not the british.

Yes I am just comparing just them to brits to show where they are in the hierarchy of getting credit for Indian unity today....because its the reverse of what most people think.

More credit goes to Patel, Netaji, other patriots and many of the common people of country at that time.
 
per se Pandit Nehru's ideas of NAM, Socialism and his view of economy weren't wrong ideologically but perhaps a bit late of the time he had them implemented.
If we see countries who were beneficiary of Marshall Plan post WW2, we can draw a parallel with India. War had devastating affect on economy and society much in same way partition had on India. However countries which accepted plan grew much faster and democracy was much safer compared to eastern soviet block countries. If something was compromised, it was acceptance of US view of opposing communism and keeping foreign policy aligned with that of US.
These things were quite opposite of what Panditji believed and he chose a different path (Panchsheel for example) to deal with world. Again i believe it was way to idealistic to deal real world.
We must also remember that after 3 wars upto 1965, that India under Indira Gandhi realized that it is best to be on Soviet Union's side and that effectively closed any doors for engagement with US administrations and start of a long diplomatic winter till Bill Clinton and Vajpayee sahab had courage to do something different.
I often wonder, what if we had a PM other than from Congress in 1970s like Vajpayee (or from right wing ideology). They dont have an ideological baggage of Nehruvian policies and maybe today India would have been a much different player on international arena.

@AUSTERLITZ @scorpionx @Joe Shearer @jbgt90
 
You totally lost the point. If it was American test, if they would have not transferred anything to us, than also it would have stopped war with China in 1962.
I am sorry?
This is what I read


US President John F Kennedy had offered India the chance to develop and detonate a nuclear device much before China’s test in 1964.
This was definitely not offered for gratis. Was it?


You know the funny, side is Nehru gave the same reason to not join UNSC. :D
2 yrs on the forum.
You think I would not have come across it? :)

Point is when you reject something you better have the right reason for rejecting it....and/or have a valid substitute. His reason was based more on fanciful Hindi-Chini bhai bhai philosophy....so the focus was almost entirely on nuclear energy with a tiny frivoulous hedge on nuclear weapons research which proceeded so slowly since finances just were not allocated in any reasonable way or structure.

If India was working on the bomb intensely with whatever cooperation it needed from wherever it could get it (there were options outside of US even at that time)....then Nehru would have my respect in this area if he rejected full US patronage/donation of a working design. But he rejected it out stubbornness in his belief of non-alignment and weapons-free, Gandhi-like pacifist world entirely....and thats just his character/personality in a nutshell.

I am not an ardent Nehru supporter.
But then when India got freedom there was no way other than choosing a neutral path forward. We had to maintain cordial relationships with our neighbours.
Nehru being softer on communists appears to be a criminal in this era when we can look back at the sequence of events as it unfolded in the past. But did he have a way to predict it?
We keep blaiming Nehru for everything that's wrong with India today. Corruption, population and poor education are the reasons which kept India backward for so long, I reckon. And wait....democracy too.
British more to our survival as a political union in early independence than Gandhi and Nehru
Come on you gotta give credit where it's due. Gandhi(no I don't like him), was the man who was able to unite India.
 
per se Pandit Nehru's ideas of NAM, Socialism and his view of economy weren't wrong ideologically but perhaps a bit late of the time he had them implemented.
If we see countries who were beneficiary of Marshall Plan post WW2, we can draw a parallel with India. War had devastating affect on economy and society much in same way partition had on India. However countries which accepted plan grew much faster and democracy was much safer compared to eastern soviet block countries. If something was compromised, it was acceptance of US view of opposing communism and keeping foreign policy aligned with that of US.
These things were quite opposite of what Panditji believed and he chose a different path (Panchsheel for example) to deal with world. Again i believe it was way to idealistic to deal real world.
We must also remember that after 3 wars upto 1965, that India under Indira Gandhi realized that it is best to be on Soviet Union's side and that effectively closed any doors for engagement with US administrations and start of a long diplomatic winter till Bill Clinton and Vajpayee sahab had courage to do something different.
I often wonder, what if we had a PM other than from Congress in 1970s like Vajpayee (or from right wing ideology). They dont have an ideological baggage of Nehruvian policies and maybe today India would have been a much different player on international arena.

@AUSTERLITZ @scorpionx @Joe Shearer @jbgt90
Fact is for about two years the country did have the Jan Sang including Vajpayee who was a minister in the govt , the head was Moraji ji, we all know how that turned out . Fact is that whether we like to or not the congress party has had better talent when it comes to people than the Bjp in its now and improved avatar. The right wing has a lot of baggage IMHO , but of a different kind.

Also those were the years the US was trying very hard to defeat the Soviets , they needed Pakistan to do so , it was Pakistan who bridged the differences which existed (to a certain extent) between the US and China, Which resulted in the famous "ping pong" diplomacy . To think that the US would come close to us is just wishful thinking . it was only after the opening of the economy in 92 that we started being taken seriously , till then we were a county who needed a lot of help .
Also it did not help that we took the so called higher moral ground on many issues (Vietnam , Israel , Afghanistan) which was diametrically opposed to the united states .

The point is if India became a nuclear weapons state before formation of NPT, it would have been in NPT (as one of the recognized NWS), NSG and anything else that followed.
Could have !! should have !! are just views like i said before . One cannot judge history using today's standards .
 
Gandhi(no I don't like him), was the man who was able to unite India


Had Gandhi lived, the whole of Deccan and south India would not have been part of India. No Operation Polo. No Operation Vijay.

Nehru was a much practical man and stood his ground for partition of India.

The credit from the Integration of India goes to Nehru, Patel & V.P. Menon.
 
I am not an ardent Nehru supporter.
But then when India got freedom there was no way other than choosing a neutral path forward. We had to maintain cordial relationships with our neighbours.
Nehru being softer on communists appears to be a criminal in this era when we can look back at the sequence of events as it unfolded in the past. But did he have a way to predict it?
We keep blaiming Nehru for everything that's wrong with India today. Corruption, population and poor education are the reasons which kept India backward for so long, I reckon. And wait....democracy too.

I'm fine with him choosing neutrality if he was not blinded by ultra-pacifist thinking. Promoting and maintaining peaceful relations with all the big powers and neighbours does not mean you have to strip down India defence capability and then expect it to perform out of the blue against another large power that spent a decade in active conflict and plenty of funding in comparison. What happened to the pacifist thought? Its same reason he left kashmir situation partially completed instead of letting IA (which had not got underfunded yet at that point) finish the job and then go to the UN after (and not before that).

Like I said hope for the best, prepare for the worst. You should never prepare for the best based on idealism. It will never work out as long as the majority of the world (Even in your own country) do not think that way.

I have talked with people like @Joe Shearer and others about this before. Hindsight is 20/20 but we must learn from history. No I do not blame him as a person for every single decision he took....be it centralised statist philosophy, socialist affinity, secularist principles and many other things. Yes he had little way to know for sure how it would manifest in India (especially seeing the USSR growth story). What I do blame him for is his stubborn idealism (often ignoring what better men than he is in particular areas advised on many matters) and complete lack of focus on scaling up basic education for the country in those crucial formative years (for some reason he felt people will educate themselves magically to run the new temples of India).

He did not take seriously what socialism called for, first and foremost....for the workers to unite through education and awareness. That is what a country like the USSR did. It was given same importance or even more importance than promotion of heavy industry at the beginning (mass literacy campaigns). So why ignore the base pragmatic requirement (education and literacy) for chasing the fancy notions that come later (industrialisation) of the very doctrine he espoused? Answer: idealism and incompetence to study the pragmatic fundamental underlying details of the development models of even the socialist societies he admired.

Even with all the stuff that did not turn out well after hindsight (Hindu rate of growth etc etc because of massive debt ridden inefficient govt enterprise and stifling bureaucracy that choked the common man)...we would have at least inherited a much better educated population at whenever the camel's back broke (it would have been earlier than 1991 I feel because more educated masses creates more demand for modern goods and ability to do enterprise which creates a huge pressure on a rigid socialist govt).

Those are thus the two things I definitely blame him for: foreign policy/security idealism (you can be non-aligned but prepare and maintain a reasonable stick...they are not mutually exclusive)....and lack of focus on education.

It (education) is a huge requirement no matter what economic and political model you choose for a country and its even more important for a democracy where you put much responsibility and faith into the masses of people to choose who governs them....and this was known by the fundamental economic thinkers of the time and before.....but it was deliberately ignored by Nehru because he was again living in a world of idealism where workers would educate magically when you create the factories for them with the initial resources available to a grossly underdeveloped but massive country).

I am taking this line of reasoning since I feel this particular thread calls for it. Now in a completely different context of thread, I would argue for many of Nehru's merits and good decisions (they of course are there, no one is 100% good or bad). But on the sum total I would say he did more harm than good....but yes a lot can be attributed to hindsight we have today....except the two fundamental glaring errors I pointed out that he grounded in his idealism. Pragmatism always trumps idealism when it comes to a good leader....because with pragmatism you dont have to get lucky with things so important as national security and human capital development.....which are a million times more important than economic doctrine which was indeed a bit of a coin flip at that time given what the world had experienced for the last 100 years or so.

Yes one should as long as one does not try to judge:)

I judge only what can be judged by evidence. Other stuff I give the person benefit of the doubt (i.e when he/she had next to no way of knowing how something would turn out). If someone is naturally idealistic instead of pragmatic, I will judge them when they apply this philosophy stubbornly (against others advice) to areas that are so important to the long term well being of a country....with the evidence available of what they had read, studied and got influenced by....and still decided to blindly and deliberately gamble on some new thing that never had been done before (industrialisation + universal suffrage/democracy before mass education).

Come on you gotta give credit where it's due. Gandhi(no I don't like him), was the man who was able to unite India.

He played his part (esp in context of changing the leadership from foreign to domestic....what we call independence). But he is not the one that bears the most credit for it (unity)....definitely in comparison to the British who did the legwork like the former empires before them (foreign and domestic) that through hook or crook created a large political entity and the administration and bureaucracy to run it....and ranks below Nehru (who @dadeechi explains well in his post)...who in turn ranks below netaji (who was ready to put actions to words and would not have done something as foolhardy as Nehru did w.r.t Kashmir and Aksai Chin) and above all Patel (Bismarck of India).

Other leaders fit in this ranking in different areas and the common folk of India somewhere on average between Nehru and Netaji...and about par with the British in the larger context....but Gandhi I don't put anywhere near the top (w.r.t unity....his role was more geared to independence). Gandhi acquiesced to partition so quickly....it just needed some bloodletting and threats for him to abandon all those Muslim leaders who wanted to stay united with India....because of this ultra-pacifist doctrine. That same doctrine where he said the jews better let Hitler kill all of them without resisting because its morally defensible (after claiming to be a student of the Gita). Yeah....no.
 
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I am not an ardent Nehru supporter.
But then when India got freedom there was no way other than choosing a neutral path forward. We had to maintain cordial relationships with our neighbours.
Nehru being softer on communists appears to be a criminal in this era when we can look back at the sequence of events as it unfolded in the past. But did he have a way to predict it?
We keep blaiming Nehru for everything that's wrong with India today. Corruption, population and poor education are the reasons which kept India backward for so long, I reckon. And wait....democracy too.

Come on you gotta give credit where it's due. Gandhi(no I don't like him), was the man who was able to unite India.

Democracy and Nehru? You do need to read up about the dictatorial approach of Nehru as a Prime Minister. If indeed he was a protagonist of democratic values, would he have gleefully accepted presidency of Congress after loosing elections in 1939?

Further, would he have, in spite of the Cabinet decision to continue war in Kashmir till vacation of all territories including Gilgit, proceeded without informing anyone of his colleagues in a democratic system of governance of declaring a cease fire?

And he being soft on communist? He was anti socialist and communists and was responsible for dismissing the elected government of Kerala by misusing article 356 to remove a democratically elected government of communists in Kerala in 1957.
 
I'm fine with him choosing neutrality if he was not blinded by ultra-pacifist thinking. Promoting and maintaining peaceful relations with all the big powers and neighbours does not mean you have to strip down India defence capability and then expect it to perform out of the blue against another large power that spent a decade in active conflict and plenty of funding in comparison. What happened to the pacifist thought? Its same reason he left kashmir situation partially completed instead of letting IA (which had not got underfunded yet at that point) finish the job and then go to the UN after (and not before that).

Like I said hope for the best, prepare for the worst. You should never prepare for the best based on idealism. It will never work out as long as the majority of the world (Even in your own country) do not think that way.

I have talked with people like @Joe Shearer and others about this before. Hindsight is 20/20 but we must learn from history. No I do not blame him as a person for every single decision he took....be it centralised statist philosophy, socialist affinity, secularist principles and many other things. Yes he had little way to know for sure how it would manifest in India (especially seeing the USSR growth story). What I do blame him for is his stubborn idealism (often ignoring what better men than he is in particular areas advised on many matters) and complete lack of focus on scaling up basic education for the country in those crucial formative years (for some reason he felt people will educate themselves magically to run the new temples of India).

He did not take seriously what socialism called for, first and foremost....for the workers to unite through education and awareness. That is what a country like the USSR did. It was given same importance or even more importance than promotion of heavy industry at the beginning (mass literacy campaigns). So why ignore the base pragmatic requirement (education and literacy) for chasing the fancy notions that come later (industrialisation) of the very doctrine he espoused? Answer: idealism and incompetence to study the pragmatic fundamental underlying details of the development models of even the socialist societies he admired.

Even with all the stuff that did not turn out well after hindsight (Hindu rate of growth etc etc because of massive debt ridden inefficient govt enterprise and stifling bureaucracy that choked the common man)...we would have at least inherited a much better educated population at whenever the camel's back broke (it would have been earlier than 1991 I feel because more educated masses creates more demand for modern goods and ability to do enterprise which creates a huge pressure on a rigid socialist govt).

Those are thus the two things I definitely blame him for: foreign policy/security idealism (you can be non-aligned but prepare and maintain a reasonable stick...they are not mutually exclusive)....and lack of focus on education.

It (education) is a huge requirement no matter what economic and political model you choose for a country and its even more important for a democracy where you put much responsibility and faith into the masses of people to choose who governs them....and this was known by the fundamental economic thinkers of the time and before.....but it was deliberately ignored by Nehru because he was again living in a world of idealism where workers would educate magically when you create the factories for them with the initial resources available to a grossly underdeveloped but massive country).

I am taking this line of reasoning since I feel this particular thread calls for it. Now in a completely different context of thread, I would argue for many of Nehru's merits and good decisions (they of course are there, no one is 100% good or bad). But on the sum total I would say he did more harm than good....but yes a lot can be attributed to hindsight we have today....except the two fundamental glaring errors I pointed out that he grounded in his idealism. Pragmatism always trumps idealism when it comes to a good leader....because with pragmatism you dont have to get lucky with things so important as national security and human capital development.....which are a million times more important than economic doctrine which was indeed a bit of a coin flip at that time given what the world had experienced for the last 100 years or so.



I judge only what can be judged by evidence. Other stuff I give the person benefit of the doubt (i.e when he/she had next to no way of knowing how something would turn out). If someone is naturally idealistic instead of pragmatic, I will judge them when they apply this philosophy stubbornly (against others advice) to areas that are so important to the long term well being of a country....with the evidence available of what they had read, studied and got influenced by....and still decided to blindly and deliberately gamble on some new thing that never had been done before (industrialisation + universal suffrage/democracy before mass education).



He played his part (esp in context of changing the leadership from foreign to domestic....what we call independence). But he is not the one that bears the most credit for it (unity)....definitely in comparison to the British who did the legwork like the former empires before them (foreign and domestic) that through hook or crook created a large political entity and the administration and bureaucracy to run it....and ranks below Nehru (who @dadeechi explains well in his post)...who in turn ranks below netaji (who was ready to put actions to words and would not have done something as foolhardy as Nehru did w.r.t Kashmir and Aksai Chin) and above all Patel (Bismarck of India).

Other leaders fit in this ranking in different areas and the common folk of India somewhere on average between Nehru and Netaji...and about par with the British in the larger context....but Gandhi I don't put anywhere near the top (w.r.t unity....his role was more geared to independence). Gandhi acquiesced to partition so quickly....it just needed some bloodletting and threats for him to abandon all those Muslim leaders who wanted to stay united with India....because of this ultra-pacifist doctrine. That same doctrine where he said the jews better let Hitler kill all of them without resisting because its morally defensible (after claiming to be a student of the Gita). Yeah....no.

Wonderful post! Salute!
 

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