Corrption worsened during 2017-18 period: Transparency Intl 2019 Report

[El Sidd]

@ali_raza

how did nepotism and corruption help you in your experience with the PM Portal?

 

[Verve]

Fake News Orgy ... This won't stop unless the snake media is uprooted.

 

[Bil]

The entire narrative of PTI and the munafiq-e-azam was corruption and how they would end it. Do we really need proof even amongst ourselves of what is going on around us?

Never mind any survey and walk into any public service department or Government organization and let me know if it is better today than it was 3, 5, 10 or 20 years ago.

I have said it before and will reiterate it once again here.

The biggest sin of PPP & PML-N (Nawaz and Showbaz) is that they deliberately destroyed Pakistani institutes through political appointments. Their eyes and ears can be found at every level in the system and Khan has said it on multiple occasions. This mess of multiple decades will take years to clean up, because nobody has magic wand which he can swing in the air and restore everything in the blink of an eye.

And yes, establishment has always been playing its part in the forming and ending of Governments but quite possibly not at the scale at which they did for PTI. In the previous elections, establishment was more into buying alliances and forging of alliances between their chosen ones but in the last election, they did a whole lot more than that.

And so, it would also be unfair to call the previous Government 'selected' but they did still have mandate of many of the Pakistanis unlike the incumbent for whom an entire election was stolen.

So first establishment was supporting PTI and Khan and now they "possibly" wasnt involve at this scale - Bravo...

Make up your mind first, because either they are and were involved or they werent.

Anyone who even possesses an iota of knowledge of Pakistani politics knows about their role, and its utter hogwash that they had different scale in the past compare to now.

Your whole argument was build on "quite possibly", which is pure assumption - it doesnt work like that.

 

[Imad.Khan]

So PMLN supporters were all up and cheering when the report came out without reading the content or authenticating the sources. But now that the clarification has come through they are all gone missing again.

Remember this? Dejavu anyone?

 

[Mav3rick]

I have said it before and will reiterate it once again here.

The biggest sin of PPP & PML-N (Nawaz and Showbaz) is that they deliberately destroyed Pakistani institutes through political appointments. Their eyes and ears can be found at every level in the system and Khan has said it on multiple occasions. This mess of multiple decades will take years to clean up, because nobody has magic wand which he can swing in the air and restore everything in the blink of an eye.

It is only a sin if those political appointments are unfit and incompetent for their appointed roles. I agree with you largely that institutions such as PIA, Railways and others have been damaged by political appointments and overfilling and that it will take years to fix it all; however, the intention and plan needs to be there for all to be seen which is still NOT there despite all the rhetoric and claims!

So first establishment was supporting PTI and Khan and now they "possibly" wasnt involve at this scale - Bravo...

Make up your mind first, because either they are and were involved or they werent.

It is amazing, I mean the disconnect between your eyes and your understanding. If you would only return to my post and re-read what I wrote, you will see how absurd your post is.

Anyone who even possesses an iota of knowledge of Pakistani politics knows about their role, and its utter hogwash that they had different scale in the past compare to now.

Your whole argument was build on "quite possibly", which is pure assumption - it doesnt work like that.

While none of us would have the complete knowledge of how much the establishment has always been involved in elections (or even selections, if you prefer), we can still have a fair idea that the involvement of the establishment has been far too great. The only difference being, as it appears, that in the previous elections, the establishment coerced politicians into alliances which they could then manipulate as opposed to the last elections which were stolen with pre-poll rigging, poll rigging and post-poll alliances etc.

It is safe to say that we are under an undeclared martial law where it became a matter of life and death to give extension to the Army Chief when none was required, it is NEVER required. It was done so to ensure that IK also continues to enjoy absolute protection of the masters as a new Army Chief may or may not be as sympathetic to IK as the incumbent is. Too bad that they are not sympathetic to Pakistan!

Point is red indicates you take political angling in your thinking. But anyway;

• Peshawar case is in court. It was a mega project, I suspect corruption in it like I suspect corruption in Lahore metro who's record was burnt by PMLN. One project that started in 2017 and is still going on is your basis of conclusion? Between 2018 and 2019, what parameters do you have that hint corruption is up in that project and because of which preception of corruption should go up?
• Tax-evading is a financial crime but FBR officials who give undue favours to tax evaders do fall under institutional corruption. Increased tax collection means something improved - what do you think it is?
• Ease of doing business includes the impact of legislation on economic or investment activity. If preception is your measure of reality, perception on ease of business says it is now easier and more viable to do business in Paksitan. I cannot explain increased corruption from these parameters- but can you?
  
• Paksitan is almost out of the Grey List. The news came out today. FATF is primarily focussed towards money laundering and includes terror financing as a sub-category of its checklist which in reality India is pushing for. When money is laundered, which money do you think is laundered? Ill-gotten money or Legally earned one? If money laundering was on the rise, you would not have come out of it. Simple.

I understand I am speaking to a PMLN supporter here and I cannot help you see what you chose not to see.

While you may think that my thinking is weighted with political likes and dislikes, I believe that it is weighted more so with the economic condition of the country in the past 2 years, which also affects me and my family directly. Anyway, let me respond to the points in the same order:

• You mean to say that Peshawar BRT case is in court? It is in court merely to the extent where the involved party aka PTI took the matter to court to get a stay order against NAB from initiating references of corruption against the project. Perception of corruption rises not only based on absolute and proven cases but on apparent cases such as the BRT project. And so my assertion was merely that. I agree to your point about corruption in all other projects be them under PPP, PML, MQM etc.
• Please re-visit my post, I very clearly said Tax avoidance (and NOT Tax-evading). As for increased tax collection let me tell you how it has increased, it has increased because I am being taxed more than I was being taxed last year (Income Tax) and collection of all other taxes are up as well due to similar reasons as electricity, gas, petrol, medicine, groceries etc., are all more expensive in the magnitude of 30% to 200%+ which means additional taxes! Basically, NOTHING HAS IMPROVED.
• That is merely the definition and as I explained with the example, it will have negligible impact if the Government starts granting Pilot's licence unless the Government actually makes an environment favorable to flying (cheaper oil, cheaper aircraft, lower taxes, readily available aircraft, cheap spare parts or in short a complete eco-system of flying); with the current disarray and disaster that our economy is, who would want to invest?
  
• Now please go back to my post again and read what I wrote with a PS; for ready reference, I wrote We are NOT coming out of the Grey List!........and mate, we are NOT. Also, while your knowledge may be from news papers and media, some of us may have more insight on the matter. We were placed in the Grey list because of our non-compliance to TF related matters and not because of AML related matters. And while we are at it, let me clear 1 more perception of yours, not all laundered money is from corruption, some is merely from tax-evasion, which although a crime is not corruption.

You are speaking to a Pakistan supporter. As for politics, my inclination, as a Karachiite, has always been with MQM and so I can never ever be a PML supporter.

 

[Bil]

It is only a sin if those political appointments are unfit and incompetent for their appointed roles. I agree with you largely that institutions such as PIA, Railways and others have been damaged by political appointments and overfilling and that it will take years to fix it all; however, the intention and plan needs to be there for all to be seen which is still NOT there despite all the rhetoric and claims!

110% those political appointments and only a biased wouldnt agree - read what CJ Gulzar has said.

No govt dept more corrupt than railways: SC

Lets guess who was the previous minister - yes, Saad Rafique and I am not defending here Sheikh Rashid by any means. Therefore, nobody in his sane mind would have any doubt that political appointments were sin.

It is amazing, I mean the disconnect between your eyes and your understanding. If you would only return to my post and re-read what I wrote, you will see how absurd your post is.

Indeed its amazing how you continue to make assumption and trying to paint the picture which suits your narrative.

And btw, people dont like and agree with absurd posts, and mine was agreed/liked by 2 posters - so its obvious who's is what ...

 

[Mav3rick]

110% those political appointments and only a biased wouldnt agree - read what CJ Gulzar has said.

No govt dept more corrupt than railways: SC

Lets guess who was the previous minister - yes, Saad Rafique and I am not defending here Sheikh Rashid by any means. Therefore, nobody in his sane mind would have any doubt that political appointments were sin.

Read carefully and read well would be my suggestion to you at the offset. I had largely agreed with you that institutions such as Railways and PIA etc., had been destroyed with nepotism, political recruitment and over-staffing. However, if in the present or in the future, a Government recruits resources, even political appointments, which it honestly believes to be the best resource for any given responsibility then I see no problem with that.

Indeed its amazing how you continue to make assumption and trying to paint the picture which suits your narrative.

Evidently you did not bother to return to my previous post and re-read it. Let me copy it here for your convenience:

"And yes, establishment has always been playing its part in the forming and ending of Governments but quite possibly not at the scale at which they did for PTI. In the previous elections, establishment was more into buying alliances and forging of alliances between their chosen ones but in the last election, they did a whole lot more than that."

to which your response was:

"So first establishment was supporting PTI and Khan and now they "possibly" wasnt involve at this scale - Bravo...

Make up your mind first, because either they are and were involved or they werent.

Anyone who even possesses an iota of knowledge of Pakistani politics knows about their role, and its utter hogwash that they had different scale in the past compare to now.

Your whole argument was build on "quite possibly", which is pure assumption - it doesnt work like that."

It is painfully revealing in your argument above that you did not understand my post. I tried to explain that the establishment has always been involved in making and breaking of Governments but for PTI it did a lot more than usual, like going the extra mile. The use of the word 'possibly' was merely to identify the varying scale of agreement to the extent of involvement of the establishment in bringing the PTI to power; it was not at all meant to bring into dispute the fact that the establishment has always been involved in making and breaking of Governments in Pakistan.

And btw, people dont like and agree with absurd posts, and mine was agreed/liked by 2 posters - so its obvious who's is what ...

I can post 1 picture of IK along with a line of praise for him and there will be 30 likes and 2 positives for it or I can post 5 lines on how Pakistan can annihilate India in mere 5 days and there would be like 50 likes and 5 positives; however that would make me a hypocrite and a liar! Basically, more likes do not at all mean a correct position or right response, it merely reflects the mindset of my fellow members who are politicized to the point of blindness.

 

[Bil]

Read carefully and read well would be my suggestion to you at the offset. I had largely agreed with you that institutions such as Railways and PIA etc., had been destroyed with nepotism, political recruitment and over-staffing. However, if in the present or in the future, a Government recruits resources, even political appointments, which it honestly believes to be the best resource for any given responsibility then I see no problem with that.

So this is what you said earlier, I second you apart from the highlighted part. There is not doubt that political appointments and destroyed Pakistani institutes.

It is only a sin if those political appointments are unfit and incompetent for their appointed roles. I agree with you largely that institutions such as PIA, Railways and others have been damaged by political appointments and overfilling and that it will take years to fix it all; however, the intention and plan needs to be there for all to be seen which is still NOT there despite all the rhetoric and claims!

It is painfully revealing in your argument above that you did not understand my post. I tried to explain that the establishment has always been involved in making and breaking of Governments but for PTI it did a lot more than usual, like going the extra mile. The use of the word 'possibly' was merely to identify the varying scale of agreement to the extent of involvement of the establishment in bringing the PTI to power; it was not at all meant to bring into dispute the fact that the establishment has always been involved in making and breaking of Governments in Pakistan.

Again, there is what you said about role of establishment in Pakistani politics.

And yes, establishment has always been playing its part in the forming and ending of Governments but quite possibly not at the scale at which they did for PTI. In the previous elections, establishment was more into buying alliances and forging of alliances between their chosen ones but in the last election, they did a whole lot more than that.

And so, it would also be unfair to call the previous Government 'selected' but they did still have mandate of many of the Pakistanis unlike the incumbent for whom an entire election was stolen.

And in response I said that you are making assumptions by saying "quite possibly not at the scale" - do you have any evidence(s) to back you claim and assumptions (that establishments scale to interfere in politics has changed) ?

More to the point, its very convenient to say that their scale was different in past vs. now - without any concrete evidence nobody, literally nobody will buy your argument. They have been equally involved in the past as well, otherwise, there is no way PML-N would've won 2013 elections and same goes for PPP which came in power after Musharaf. Musharaf said it himself that we need to have democratic setup in the country going forward.

I can post 1 picture of IK along with a line of praise for him and there will be 30 likes and 2 positives for it or I can post 5 lines on how Pakistan can annihilate India in mere 5 days and there would be like 50 likes and 5 positives; however that would make me a hypocrite and a liar! Basically, more likes do not at all mean a correct position or right response, it merely reflects the mindset of my fellow members who are politicized to the point of blindness.

I was referring to this discussion which we are having.

 

[Mav3rick]

So this is what you said earlier, I second you apart from the highlighted part. There is not doubt that political appointments and destroyed Pakistani institutes.

Ideal situation would be non-political appointments based only on merit created from actual requirement of the position(s). However, I would also be willing to accept a political appointment if the resource is the right person for the job. But incompetence, nepotism, political hiring and over-staffing are some of the reasons which have wreaked havoc with state institutions and utilities. I also firmly believe that the state should not be engaged in utilities and businesses; it should merely regulate fair and diverse utility and business ventures devoid of any sort of monopoly.

Again, there is what you said about role of establishment in Pakistani politics.

And in response I said that you are making assumptions by saying "quite possibly not at the scale" - do you have any evidence(s) to back you claim and assumptions (that establishments scale to interfere in politics has changed) ?

More to the point, its very convenient to say that their scale was different in past vs. now - without any concrete evidence nobody, literally nobody will buy your argument. They have been equally involved in the past as well, otherwise, there is no way PML-N would've won 2013 elections and same goes for PPP which came in power after Musharaf. Musharaf said it himself that we need to have democratic setup in the country going forward.

I recall the IJI case, which was also heard by the Courts and in which evidence was brought forward highlighting how the establishment, through her various arms, forged political alliances, even through bribes; however, back then, that was the extent of it, there was no evidence of any pre-poll rigging or rigging of the ballot boxes and post-poll rigging.

Coming to the last election, Army was deployed in most, if not all, of the polling stations. The opposition, especially PML and MQM were intimidated and victimized at the highest level, these parties were not allowed to hold rallies or host other political ceremonies, their top leaders were either detained, arrested or otherwise incapacitated amongst others; 22-24 electables of PML were made to turn and join PTI mere days before elections. On election day, selected polling stations were taken over by unknown men who kicked out polling agents for obvious reasons and were instrumental in key make-or-break constituencies. After elections, PML was not even allowed to make the Punjab Government despite being in clear majority.......all this while PTI and IK were being patronized and supported at every level to the point where arch enemies (MQM & PML-Q) too were brought to PTI's fold.

All the above is the reason for which I personally believe that involvement of the establishment was at a very different scale in the last elections.

I was referring to this discussion which we are having.

It was apparent why the post was thanked; hence my point and attempt at explanation.

 

[Bil]

Ideal situation would be non-political appointments based only on merit created from actual requirement of the position(s). However, I would also be willing to accept a political appointment if the resource is the right person for the job. But incompetence, nepotism, political hiring and over-staffing are some of the reasons which have wreaked havoc with state institutions and utilities. I also firmly believe that the state should not be engaged in utilities and businesses; it should merely regulate fair and diverse utility and business ventures devoid of any sort of monopoly.

Incompetence, nepotism, political hiring and over-staffing, first one on the list it corruption, which almost everyone is indulge in. Not sure why you didnt mention it.

I recall the IJI case, which was also heard by the Courts and in which evidence was brought forward highlighting how the establishment, through her various arms, forged political alliances, even through bribes; however, back then, that was the extent of it, there was no evidence of any pre-poll rigging or rigging of the ballot boxes and post-poll rigging.

Coming to the last election, Army was deployed in most, if not all, of the polling stations. The opposition, especially PML and MQM were intimidated and victimized at the highest level, these parties were not allowed to hold rallies or host other political ceremonies, their top leaders were either detained, arrested or otherwise incapacitated amongst others; 22-24 electables of PML were made to turn and join PTI mere days before elections. On election day, selected polling stations were taken over by unknown men who kicked out polling agents for obvious reasons and were instrumental in key make-or-break constituencies. After elections, PML was not even allowed to make the Punjab Government despite being in clear majority.......all this while PTI and IK were being patronized and supported at every level to the point where arch enemies (MQM & PML-Q) too were brought to PTI's fold.

All the above is the reason for which I personally believe that involvement of the establishment was at a very different scale in the last elections.

You continue to express your opinion based on multiple accusations & assumptions, but I am asking for proves, do you have any to back to tall claims? I dont think so, otherwise you wouldve be dragging this. I am through the roof with people accusing Amry establishment for XYZ with absolute zilch of evidence(s) - again if you have any than I am all ears, because I dont need to hear your conspiracy theories, for those I can tuned into any Pakistani News channel and listen the rhetoric, which Fazlu, Billo and PML-N chamcha do day in day out about "dhandli" - No wondering we Pakistan's are champions of conspiracy theories.

On Army was deployment on most polling stations, I can say a lot to destroy all your conspiracy theories but really dont want to drag this any further until I see some evidence(s) from you to back your claims, which I have been asking since 2 days.

It was apparent why the post was thanked; hence my point and attempt at explanation.

Again, another assumption - and if that the case than why those thanks are stopped now? They should like every word I say, as per you logic.

 

[Mav3rick]

Incompetence, nepotism, political hiring and over-staffing, first one on the list it corruption, which almost everyone is indulge in. Not sure why you didnt mention it.

An oversight, simply.

By the way, I would rate incompetence over and above corruption and believe incompetence is a bigger evil than corruption.

You continue to express your opinion based on multiple accusations & assumptions, but I am asking for proves, do you have any to back to tall claims? I dont think so, otherwise you wouldve be dragging this. I am through the roof with people accusing Amry establishment for XYZ with absolute zilch of evidence(s) - again if you have any than I am all ears, because I dont need to hear your conspiracy theories, for those I can tuned into any Pakistani News channel and listen the rhetoric, which Fazlu, Billo and PML-N chamcha do day in day out about "dhandli" - No wondering we Pakistan's are champions of conspiracy theories.

On Army was deployment on most polling stations, I can say a lot to destroy all your conspiracy theories but really dont want to drag this any further until I see some evidence(s) from you to back your claims, which I have been asking since 2 days.

I gave you all the information that you needed but evidently you either very naively believe that, despite evidence of IJI tampering and involvement of establishment in previous elections, the establishment has no involvement in any elections or that you do not wish to accede to the string of evidences because of political following.

I hope you can recall what IK used to say about extensions to Army Chiefs.........now, why did he himself do exactly the opposite and give the Army Chief a 3 year extension? There are clear signs out there for all to see and put 2 and 2 together.

 

[Bil]

An oversight, simply.

By the way, I would rate incompetence over and above corruption and believe incompetence is a bigger evil than corruption.

No worries, it happens.

I gave you all the information that you needed but evidently you either very naively believe that, despite evidence of IJI tampering and involvement of establishment in previous elections, the establishment has no involvement in any elections or that you do not wish to accede to the string of evidences because of political following.

I hope you can recall what IK used to say about extensions to Army Chiefs.........now, why did he himself do exactly the opposite and give the Army Chief a 3 year extension? There are clear signs out there for all to see and put 2 and 2 together.

I am sorry, but we cant move forward as I said earlier until I see evidences of your claims.

I can come up with tons of assumptions and accusations, however, without any concrete evidence all my rhetoric means absolute zilch.