Code crisis overshadows Turkey’s planned purchase of F-35 jets

[ovarel]

A “code crisis” has erupted in Ankara that could threaten Turkey’s participation in a US-led project to produce F-35 fighter jets, further complicated by the presentation of a bill to Turkey for an additional $4 billion to offset the growing costs of the project.
The Turkish side in this $16 billion project has repeatedly knocked on America’s door to ask for the flight codes for the fighter jets into which so much money has been invested. However, the Pentagon has rejected these demands on the part of Turkey. America’s refusal to turn over the codes belonging to the jets and to share the software technology used in their production is making Turkey nervous.

Though Ankara plans at this point to purchase around 100 of these fighter jets, there is the awareness in the Turkish capital that without the codes in question, possession of the jet planes will only be partial. There are assertions at hand that the F-35s will be controllable from outside sources, that they may be defenseless against electronic warfare and that no changes will be able to be made to their software. At this point, diplomatic circles claim the UK will be withdrawing from the consortium was formed to realize the project for these same reasons.

Currently, Turkish bureaucrats and the government are trying to decide on a definitive stance to adopt in this matter. As for the ultimate fate of the F-35s in question, it will become clear at a meeting scheduled for April 13 in the US. Turkey is to be represented at this critical meeting by the undersecretary for the defense industry (SSM), Murad Bayar.

Turkey is one of a group of countries designated as production nations for the F-35, which has been designed to be the “hunter of the future.” Along with Turkey, Italy, Denmark, Norway, Australia, the US, and Canada are all a part of this project. A budget of $10 billion has been earmarked in the Turkish Treasury for this project, whose first fighter jet is slated to be presented to Turkey some time in 2015.

Although there has been no F-35 turned over to Turkey yet, an bill for an extra $4 billion, based on higher than predicted costs for the building of the planes, was presented to Ankara. In fact, taking into consideration logistics as well as other costs, the total cost to Turkey is now said to be likely to reach $16 billion. The SSM has already gone to the Treasury to ask for the extra cost to be covered, following requests from the General Staff.



12 March 2011, Saturday / EMRE SONCA, ANKARA

| TRDEFENCE

 

[Pax Ottomana]

I think we always kind of 'knew' that we weren't going to be handed the source codes. Given our threat environment and military alignment, the fact that Turkey has only one realistically viable option (Eurofighter) puts us in a somewhat tight spot. But still we should note that F-35 isn't some wonder-weapon. It's a very "watered down" stealth fighter, and stealth only when it's carrying limited weapons in the internal bays. It's got a smaller RCS than an F-16 and better radar/engine, but the advantages sort of end right there. Even tough TAI and a few other companies will build parts of it, a full technology transfer to Turkey (that could aide in the manufacturing of TFX) is out of question.

I don't mean to lobby for the Eurofighter at all, but AFAIK the Eurofighter consortium was offering a FULL PARTNERSHIP and joint marketing. We should definitely keep that card up our sleeve.

 

[ovarel]

we are investing so much money but we are not getting the source codes.doesnt seem profitable to me..im surprised that even england cant get the codes..hope we reconsider our purchase...

 

[BladeMaster]

the more countrys who have the source code, the bigger chance of it being leaked out ,, which would make hacking and jamming a big threat

the only way to prevent this occuring so quickly is to keep the source code unavailable

once the source code is out there.... everyone who purchased the jet will be in a bad position

even once they upgrade it, it will be easier to figure out how to hack and jam it again

 

[Pax Ottomana]

we are investing so much money but we are not getting the source codes.doesnt seem profitable to me..im surprised that even england cant get the codes..hope we reconsider our purchase...

TRDEFENCE had published some news about Aselsan making new mission computers and installing our own software on the older F-16 Block 30 and 40s. Maybe a compromise can be reached with the option that Turkey develops its own software, instead of just copying that of the USAF. Commonality among NATO units is a must and something to that end can be worked out, but there is no rule that says every production F-35 has to run on the exact same software.

 

[Manticore]

paf was able to integrate its choice of weapons on jf17 as it had the codes -- modifying u.s weapons is generally prohibited , although we allegedly modified the harpoon missiles

 

[avrasya]

..hope we reconsider our purchase...

Agree. We shouldn't spend 16 bil dollar for unreliable plane. It can be easily jammed if we want to use those planes to strike somewhere that US do not want us to do so.

 

[-------]

Another news that has gone by its sell by date, seriously this news has been out and about for the past 4 years. Zaman likes to mix it up and resell it, like it just happend....

The F-35 project has brought a lot of advances in the form of updating the Turkish Industry, TAI did not have any advanced levels of industrial knowledge on composites before Lockheed Martin agreed to install a high tech composite winding machine (of which only 3 countries posses world wide) in Turkish facility. It's all these little to an extent manufacturing processes that are needed within Turkish industry that will see them grow.

As for Mission Computers and such, our F-4 phantoms has had Turkish Mission Computers installed on them for around 10 years, our test bed Cobra Helicopters has had a Turkish Mission Computer for over 6 years. And soon our older F-16s will be getting Turkish Mission computers too, allowing us to integrate all kinds of indigenous weapon loads as our Phantoms had for years.

 

[Jigs]

It is the F-35 it doesn't matter if we don't get source codes we are getting a top range fighter and if we have to pay 16 billion so be it. What other options do we have ? Eurofighter ? It is behind in both avionics and very minimal stealth measures have been taken on it. There is simply no point for this aircraft when we are upgrading our F-16s and inducting our own fighter. This might have made some sense if the F-16s were to be retired but i doubt we have the money to induct another foreign aircraft.


F-35 will be our most advanced aircraft. The F-16 will still make up our backbone for a good time and our own fighter will reduce our dependency on foreign countries for our aerospace needs.


Remember though we will always need to go foreign for our top of the line equipment. Our industry products won't be on par with what the giants will be rolling out.

Going fully domestic was never a viable option in the first place(this is only viable for superpowers or multinational consortium's). Unless we have no choice. What is the point of producing your own aircraft when a rival country goes out and buys F-35s. Sure you can produce your aircraft and that is great but it won't be near the level of sophistication the F-35 brings so your left with a disadvantage. This is why it is always good to have a domestic market for lesser tech products that can compete with others and go international when you cant.


As far as this foreign shut down theory it is typical conspiracy mindset. No one would buy the aircraft if this was the case and no one has brought any type of evidence that this was even real in the F-16 which many many countries operate. Not getting F-35 source codes is understandable this was also the case with the F-16. Not till the 90s did the U.S. start to transfer source codes to countries. One of these being Japan for their F-2 variant project.

 

[Jigs]

TRDEFENCE had published some news about Aselsan making new mission computers and installing our own software on the older F-16 Block 30 and 40s. Maybe a compromise can be reached with the option that Turkey develops its own software, instead of just copying that of the USAF. Commonality among NATO units is a must and something to that end can be worked out, but there is no rule that says every production F-35 has to run on the exact same software.

I think the reason for this installation was to gain know how. Like the F-5 and F-4 upgrades they don't add much to a already obselete aircraft but by doing the upgrades we can gain knowledge in fields. F-16 block 30s are no longer viable aircraft unless you bring them to 50+ standard at this point which is what we are doing with the large portion of the fleet the reason why we are not doing this to the full fleet is because we will retire these older airframes which was why we ordered 30 new F-16s. Note how we do small upgrades on many obselete items. It is for our development process.

Take the leopard 1 upgrade. We threw in a Fire control system. We now expand on the same system and put it in the Leopard2A4 along with a more comprehensive upgrade. Finally this all comes together in our own project. The altay tank. The same would go with our F-5/F-4/Early F-16 upgrade work. It will come together and help us in our own fighter aircraft. U214 submarine upgrade work is the same deal except this time we are putting our own equipment in a already modern platform besides that parts that are out of our technological comprehension which Germany will provide. I would have liked if we decided on working on the type 209s before trying the type 214 since we may not be on par with what Germany could put in or a foreign company.

 

[500]

I think we always kind of 'knew' that we weren't going to be handed the source codes. Given our threat environment and military alignment, the fact that Turkey has only one realistically viable option (Eurofighter) puts us in a somewhat tight spot. But still we should note that F-35 isn't some wonder-weapon. It's a very "watered down" stealth fighter, and stealth only when it's carrying limited weapons in the internal bays. It's got a smaller RCS than an F-16 and better radar/engine, but the advantages sort of end right there. Even tough TAI and a few other companies will build parts of it, a full technology transfer to Turkey (that could aide in the manufacturing of TFX) is out of question.

I don't mean to lobby for the Eurofighter at all, but AFAIK the Eurofighter consortium was offering a FULL PARTNERSHIP and joint marketing. We should definitely keep that card up our sleeve.

Bluff with Eurofighters is interesting but wont work, Americans know very well that EF is no match to 5 gen F-35 and they know that Turks know it too.

 

[avrasya]

Bluff with Eurofighters is interesting but wont work, Americans know very well that EF is no match to 5 gen F-35 and they know that Turks know it too.

agree but I do not see any point for paying 16 bl for a plane which usa able to track every second of it. So maybe in the future upgraded version of EF can become better option.

 

[azfar]

what benefits turkey having by participating into this program? if just having couple of these birds then it s totally stupid move.

 

[Jigs]

agree but I do not see any point for paying 16 bl for a plane which usa able to track every second of it. So maybe in the future upgraded version of EF can become better option.

There is simply no evidence that they can. Speculating on it is pointless.

EF has minimal RCS reduction features. Has no distrubed aperture system at all or Electro-Optical Targeting System at all it uses IRST which the Russians have been using for quite some time anyway. Has no internal bays. Has no operational AESA. Here is the best part 125 million dollars for the newest variant.

So the EF is not a better option nor can it be in the future. Might i also add we make parts for the F-35. Do you know the level of knowledge we gain for building its composite fuselage and engine components. How much of a advantage it gives Turkish Aerospace industries in their own projects. It is simply massive.

People need to get over this imaginary hurdle of full technology transfers and understand they matter none when your getting full tot on a platform that isn't on par with one what offers none.

Full tot does not translate to giving you a advantage in wars. The capability of the platform you brought does. SSM understands this which is why we are willing to put down 16 billion dollars for it.

 

[Jigs]

what benefits turkey having by participating into this program? if just having couple of these birds then it s totally stupid move.

Know how in F-35 parts production and 100-116 F-35A.