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CM-400AKG: Pakistan's supersonic carrier killer

If CM 400 AKG is displayed along JF17 then it is a proof that PAF has inducted it and they are even available for exports. As PAF scenario is different from China, as being a main producer China displays certain products but not used domestically and some of them make their way to export markets.

Pak is producing JF17 in collaboration and they are also importing CM400 from China so it makes no sense if the imported missile is still not operational but displayed in an international exhibition.
 
If CM 400 AKG is displayed along JF17 then it is a proof that PAF has inducted it and they are even available for exports. As PAF scenario is different from China, as being a main producer China displays certain products but not used domestically and some of them make their way to export markets.

Pak is producing JF17 in collaboration and they are also importing CM400 from China so it makes no sense if the imported missile is still not operational but displayed in an international exhibition.
exactly .
 
Surely not, just look on how many fancy weapons are all laid out in front of so many fighters at Paris!

However I would agree that it is already integrated and eventually also already in service even if we don't have an image of an operational JF-17 armed with this missile.

My point is simply that a weapon model in front of an aircraft at an air show is barely proof.
Well i dont think that any weapon supplier will market a peoduct not integrated ... it will be a really bad marketing and will annoy customer
 
Well i dont think that any weapon supplier will market a peoduct not integrated ... it will be a really bad marketing and will annoy customer

But to admit, that's a typical practice: You offer what you consider and in fact offer to integrate if a customer pays.

Why should CAC pay for the integration of certain weapons in advance if no customer bought them? just as I said, do you really think all bombs and missiles on display around the JH-7A, H-6K and J-10B at Zhuhai are already integrated?

IMO these are on the wishing-list for customers if they agree to pay.
 

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There are many pics of CM-400AKG with JF-17 but in reality I don't know it is inducted or not as there has been no announcement that I have heard of. But in my opinion it has been inducted and this is just opinion because looking at Mayanmar JF-17 purchase it seems the missile is inducted. Also the reason that jf-17 are based in Karachi means the missile is inducted.
 
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There are many pics of CM-400AKG with JF-17 but in reality I don't know it is inducted or not as there has been no announcement that I have heard of. But in my opinion it has been inducted and this is just opinion because looking at Mayanmar JF-17 purchase it seems the missile is inducted. Also the reason that jf-17 are based in Karachi means the missile is inducted.

pak china defense deals are not transparent as west or even India, so dont be suprised if PL-15 is already in PAF service. ;)
 
Now there is also CM-102 displayed in the inventory of JF-17 that is deadly missile for air defences.
 
Deadly enough to impress Myanmar Air Force to induct it.

That don't explains the actual thing I am looking for.

What I want to ask is JF-17 can carry 2 of these missile. Now if the missiles are fired at suppose a carrier group what will be chance of success.
Like if you remember flakland islands war. Exocet did a good damage.
Then the land based version of this missile has also proven it's self in Mediterranean when Lebanon blew Israeli ship. So this means the missile is quite deadly as SA'AR 5 class corvet has good counter measures but still Lebanon achieved 100% kill rate cause they only fired one missile and target was hit.

Now coming to Pakistan inducting it is a debatable issue as Pakistan has it own anti ship missile like harpoon but harpoon will not go on JF-17s and exocet are available on Mirages. JF-17 has RA'AD which will or already has an anti ship role and will have much higher range and payload.
C-400 is available for JF-17 as it is in the name of C-400AKG as it is export variant of YJ-12. That is why it is being shown with JF-17. So point which needs to be understood here is that in moderan age only C-802 is the missile that has been battle proven against modern war ships.
 
That don't explains the actual thing I am looking for.

What I want to ask is JF-17 can carry 2 of these missile. Now if the missiles are fired at suppose a carrier group what will be chance of success.
Like if you remember flakland islands war. Exocet did a good damage.
Then the land based version of this missile has also proven it's self in Mediterranean when Lebanon blew Israeli ship. So this means the missile is quite deadly as SA'AR 5 class corvet has good counter measures but still Lebanon achieved 100% kill rate cause they only fired one missile and target was hit.

Now coming to Pakistan inducting it is a debatable issue as Pakistan has it own anti ship missile like harpoon but harpoon will not go on JF-17s and exocet are available on Mirages. JF-17 has RA'AD which will or already has an anti ship role and will have much higher range and payload.
C-400 is available for JF-17 as it is in the name of C-400AKG as it is export variant of YJ-12. That is why it is being shown with JF-17. So point which needs to be understood here is that in moderan age only C-802 is the missile that has been battle proven against modern war ships.
You have to understand that Carrier doesnt operate as one ship but all the ships work as single group which offers high to low end protection, and modern carrier are much harder to sink from a single missile even if has a bigger warhead or high kinetic energy i wont sink the it and to increase its striking chances Pakistan will have to deploy a swarm and make sure enemy defences are busy so this can increase the hit rate.
 
That don't explains the actual thing I am looking for.

What I want to ask is JF-17 can carry 2 of these missile. Now if the missiles are fired at suppose a carrier group what will be chance of success.
Like if you remember flakland islands war. Exocet did a good damage.
Then the land based version of this missile has also proven it's self in Mediterranean when Lebanon blew Israeli ship. So this means the missile is quite deadly as SA'AR 5 class corvet has good counter measures but still Lebanon achieved 100% kill rate cause they only fired one missile and target was hit.

Now coming to Pakistan inducting it is a debatable issue as Pakistan has it own anti ship missile like harpoon but harpoon will not go on JF-17s and exocet are available on Mirages. JF-17 has RA'AD which will or already has an anti ship role and will have much higher range and payload.
C-400 is available for JF-17 as it is in the name of C-400AKG as it is export variant of YJ-12. That is why it is being shown with JF-17. So point which needs to be understood here is that in moderan age only C-802 is the missile that has been battle proven against modern war ships.
You have given older examples, since then and now just see how much computers have improved alone , India has exceptional sea faring sir defence capability with BARAK etc,
A carrier group will travel with at least 2 destroyers or cruisers , multiple frigates and 2-4 submarines ,
All the ship's bar the submarines have air defence, the carrier it self has over the horizon radar tracking and dual engine fighters with a good loiter time ,
Now CM400 is a super sonic ballistic missile , ie it will travel at high altitude so will be visible , although air defences are less capable against super sonic missiles , even with 10% probability of interception the Indians will launch more than 10 missiles at it , the better wrapping for this role is the other chance CX 302 I believe ( might have the name wrong) , which is a super sonic cruise missile , ie low alltiutude sea skimming so less response time and a much higher chance of hit ,

Even with CM400 you need to factor in several factors ,
Firstly the the range of 400 km means missile will have to be launched from 350 to be effective , Indians will see the formation from at least 500 km away and scramble jets , and already flying CAP would be directed , for the Pakistanis to target the ship they will need awacs , which are juicy targets for enemy air craft,
Now say you get to within 350 km , and 4 of your aircraft launch 4 missiles towards one carrier , you might get 2 hits , this will disable the carrier but it is unlikely to sink , however now the enemy will launch multiple missiles at the bases the air craft came from , so they can't return back after rearming to finish a disabled carrier,

Even more important is that given we only have a lift fighter to carry the missile , it will have less girl range , so the Indians will simple keep their carrier 800km+ away , this does mean they can't attack our land installations but our oil shipments and navy will be a open hunt for the Indian naval air fleet then ,
It's a very tricky scenario, but if say a single cm400 hits a carrier , it depends on where it strikes , it is a super sonic missile , if it hits the bridge all is kaput and the carrier would have to be towed back , if it hits right in the middle and penetrates all the way to the sea , the ship will sink , but if it hits the ends of the ship then the ship won't sink and immediate head back for port,

To give an example I would suggest you to watch the extra credit history ( a YouTube channel ) 5 part series on the hunt for the Bismarck , Even though that is world war 2 you will get a idea of how difficult it is to sink a massive naval behemoth,( worse for us since instead of being over powered like the British, we will be the under dog side )
 
You have to understand that Carrier doesnt operate as one ship but all the ships work as single group which offers high to low end protection, and modern carrier are much harder to sink from a single missile even if has a bigger warhead or high kinetic energy i wont sink the it and to increase its striking chances Pakistan will have to deploy a swarm and make sure enemy defences are busy so this can increase the hit rate.
Thank you for bringing up the point that is what I wanted to discuss. The reason I mentioned SA'AR 5 was because it is a fairly stealthy ship better than Indian ships which are of somewhat of Russian bloodline in design and give away much bigger RCS for radar to track and lock. Now a carrier group has good defences agreed but no carrier group is able to look beyond horizon and for that purpose they use AWAC. Indian carrier group has a helicopter as AWAC. Taking out that AWAC before attacking any carrier group is crutial as that will increase the chance of successful missile attack.

You have given older examples, since then and now just see how much computers have improved alone , India has exceptional sea faring sir defence capability with BARAK etc,
A carrier group will travel with at least 2 destroyers or cruisers , multiple frigates and 2-4 submarines ,
All the ship's bar the submarines have air defence, the carrier it self has over the horizon radar tracking and dual engine fighters with a good loiter time ,
Now CM400 is a super sonic ballistic missile , ie it will travel at high altitude so will be visible , although air defences are less capable against super sonic missiles , even with 10% probability of interception the Indians will launch more than 10 missiles at it , the better wrapping for this role is the other chance CX 302 I believe ( might have the name wrong) , which is a super sonic cruise missile , ie low alltiutude sea skimming so less response time and a much higher chance of hit ,

Even with CM400 you need to factor in several factors ,
Firstly the the range of 400 km means missile will have to be launched from 350 to be effective , Indians will see the formation from at least 500 km away and scramble jets , and already flying CAP would be directed , for the Pakistanis to target the ship they will need awacs , which are juicy targets for enemy air craft,
Now say you get to within 350 km , and 4 of your aircraft launch 4 missiles towards one carrier , you might get 2 hits , this will disable the carrier but it is unlikely to sink , however now the enemy will launch multiple missiles at the bases the air craft came from , so they can't return back after rearming to finish a disabled carrier,

Even more important is that given we only have a lift fighter to carry the missile , it will have less girl range , so the Indians will simple keep their carrier 800km+ away , this does mean they can't attack our land installations but our oil shipments and navy will be a open hunt for the Indian naval air fleet then ,
It's a very tricky scenario, but if say a single cm400 hits a carrier , it depends on where it strikes , it is a super sonic missile , if it hits the bridge all is kaput and the carrier would have to be towed back , if it hits right in the middle and penetrates all the way to the sea , the ship will sink , but if it hits the ends of the ship then the ship won't sink and immediate head back for port,

To give an example I would suggest you to watch the extra credit history ( a YouTube channel ) 5 part series on the hunt for the Bismarck , Even though that is world war 2 you will get a idea of how difficult it is to sink a massive naval behemoth,( worse for us since instead of being over powered like the British, we will be the under dog side )

Okay let's say Indian carrier group is some where 900 km from Pakistani shores and is moving towards Karachi to attack. The war has already been declared so now from a distance of 900 km Indian carrier group cannot attack Pakistani shores with missiles that don't have capability. Moving beyond 900 km brings Indian carrier group in range of Pakistani land based missile systems like harba and babur which will sink the carrier as a salvo of such system cannot be defended.
Indian has only one option that is mig-29k intiate a bombing attack from carrier but that will face Pakistani anti air systems and fighter jets. Which being F-16 and JF-17 have superior weapons in terms of range.

Now if Pakistan decides to attack the carrier group at 900 km range Pakistani jets will have to fly low to stay below horizon and evade radar to sink the carrier group to achieve this Pakistan will have to use Agusta 90 b to take out AWAC which has received new Radar. So Indian carrier group is sinkable with resources Pakistan has. It is not a big issue. C-400 has range of 400 km and none of Indian ship based anti-air has that much range.

Pakistani oil shipment are well secure as they all pass under the cover of Pakistani land based anti ship missiles rage. The distance between Oman and Pakistani shore is less than 800 km.
 
Thank you for bringing up the point that is what I wanted to discuss. The reason I mentioned SA'AR 5 was because it is a fairly stealthy ship better than Indian ships which are of somewhat of Russian bloodline in design and give away much bigger RCS for radar to track and lock. Now a carrier group has good defences agreed but no carrier group is able to look beyond horizon and for that purpose they use AWAC. Indian carrier group has a helicopter as AWAC. Taking out that AWAC before attacking any carrier group is crutial as that will increase the chance of successful missile attack.



Okay let's say Indian carrier group is some where 900 km from Pakistani shores and is moving towards Karachi to attack. The war has already been declared so now from a distance of 900 km Indian carrier group cannot attack Pakistani shores with missiles that don't have capability. Moving beyond 900 km brings Indian carrier group in range of Pakistani land based missile systems like harba and babur which will sink the carrier as a salvo of such system cannot be defended.
Indian has only one option that is mig-29k intiate a bombing attack from carrier but that will face Pakistani anti air systems and fighter jets. Which being F-16 and JF-17 have superior weapons in terms of range.

Now if Pakistan decides to attack the carrier group at 900 km range Pakistani jets will have to fly low to stay below horizon and evade radar to sink the carrier group to achieve this Pakistan will have to use Agusta 90 b to take out AWAC which has received new Radar. So Indian carrier group is sinkable with resources Pakistan has. It is not a big issue. C-400 has range of 400 km and none of Indian ship based anti-air has that much range.

. The distance between Oman and Pakistani shore is less than 800 km.

Karachi to Mumbai is 900 KMs
Staying 900 KMs Away from Pakistani Shores will create a too much big of area for indian navy to cover with Pakistani Navy and specially Subs in water
Pakistan can and will use China and chinese vessel for trade.
1971 Naval Blockade wont happen thats the reason Pakistan has invested so much in subs
1 Indian needs todeploy its ship atleast 200 to 300 Km from Pakistani shores to set blockade.
2 Pakistan will still be able to get fuel from Ksa, UAE Through Persian Gulf & Gulf of oman
3 For Full blockade Indian will have to deploy its ships in Gulf of Aden, Oman & Arabian sea which will cause problem on international level as its a major shipping route.
4 If India deploys major large fleet in small area it will invite Pakistan to use Tactial babies :D
5 With addition of newer subs it will be much harder for India to move freely its ships
6 Pakistan will use Subs for Long range high value attacks in Sea than F16 or Thunder
7 As i said Pakistan will have to C-400 in swarms and even if Pakistan does go for that most probably attack distance will be between 200 to 300 Rather than pushing the limits by means of stealth
 
Karachi to Mumbai is 900 KMs
Staying 900 KMs Away from Pakistani Shores will create a too much big of area for indian navy to cover with Pakistani Navy and specially Subs in water
Pakistan can and will use China and chinese vessel for trade.
1971 Naval Blockade wont happen thats the reason Pakistan has invested so much in subs
1 Indian needs todeploy its ship atleast 200 to 300 Km from Pakistani shores to set blockade.
2 Pakistan will still be able to get fuel from Ksa, UAE Through Persian Gulf & Gulf of oman
3 For Full blockade Indian will have to deploy its ships in Gulf of Aden, Oman & Arabian sea which will cause problem on international level as its a major shipping route.
4 If India deploys major large fleet in small area it will invite Pakistan to use Tactial babies :D
5 With addition of newer subs it will be much harder for India to move freely its ships
6 Pakistan will use Subs for Long range high value attacks in Sea than F16 or Thunder
7 As i said Pakistan will have to C-400 in swarms and even if Pakistan does go for that most probably attack distance will be between 200 to 300 Rather than pushing the limits by means of stealth

But I don't think in a declared war India can deploy closer to Pakistani shores. India will try to stay out of the range of Harbah or babur. Getting with in 700 km of Pakistani shores is a death for Indian Navy. They will become easy picking with land batteries and India will not risk any such thing.

Any naval war between India and Pakistan will happen beyond 700 km from Pakistani shore in that case jf-17 with 2 fuel tanks and one C-400 strike package will come handy.

This gives Pakistan a good attack and return back survival chance.
 

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