Civil Engineers from Stavanger Asking politicians to ask what really happened 11 Sept

[r3alist]

Here we have a follower of Ahmedinijad

i know you dont want to answer the question so i take this is a moral victory

 

[Martian]

Nazi's burned their own Reichstag.
Americans lured Japs into pearl harbour
Jews killed their own at Jerusalem

what warrants that 9/11 was not part of smart conspiracy to annex oil and mineral wealth of east?

And Moscow Apartment Building blasts (that were blamed on Chechens by Putin) as a precursor of Second Chechen War.

 

[ultimateracer267]

9/11 Truth and Conspiracy Theory​

More than nine years after the collapse 9/11 attack conspiracy theories have not died yet.
Conspiracy theorists do not offer any answers. They only ask disingenous questions and let their audience come to their own erroneous conclusion. This kind of manipulation is actually a lot more effective becuse the person who is duped is convinced that he has discovered the truth on his own.
The believers in conspiracy theories can be divided in two groups. One group is made of those who benefit from lies, and the other group is made of people who are lazy to think and gobble every nonsense uncritically.
In this article I am going to debunk their claims. This paper is based on logics and science, not on a political agenda.

Well, the claims of conspiracy theorists sound convincing. Doesn’t it. Now let us go over them one by one to see the deception. The myths promoted are as follow:

Myth 1 – The Collapse of the Building 7

One question that the conspiracy theorists ask is, why a third sky scraper at the WTC that was not hit by the plains collapsed?
I quote the following paragraph from Wikipedia:
“The working hypothesis, released in the June 2004 progress report and reiterated in a June 2007 status update, was that an initial failure in a critical column occurred below the 13th floor, caused by damage from fire and/or debris from the collapse of the two main towers. The collapse progressed vertically up to the east mechanical penthouse. The interior structure was unable to handle the redistributed load, resulting in horizontal progression of the failure across lower floors, particularly the 5th to 7th floors. This resulted in “a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure”
The insurance company agreed to replace the building. This cost them seven billion dollars.
First of all insurance companies do not pay the owners if their buildings are damaged or destroyed. The insurance is for replacement cost. Therefore, Larry Silverstein, the lease holder of the building did not and could not collect one dime from that seven billion dollars. That money was paid to a contractor for replacement cost.
Secondly, would the insurance company pay so much money if the building was fraudulently destroyed? Wouldn’t they send their own inspector to verify the legitimacy of the claim? Seven billion dollars is not small money. If they paid that money it is because they were convinced of no faul play.
Thirdly, who would have benefited from the destruction of that building? If the intent was to kill people, as the conspiracy theorists want us to believe, that goal was not achieved. So if the official explenation that says the building had suffered fatal damages due to the fall of the debries from the two WTC towers is not true what other motive can these conspiracists think of?
The video claims that Larry Silverstein is on tape saying he ordered the New York Fire Department to “pull it.”
Think about this for a moment. Is this claim realistic? Would the NYFD pull down a perfectly safe building just because its owner orders them to pull it?
To answer this first argument one does not have to be a building engineer or have any knowledge of structures. All one needs is a little commonsense. Alas commonsense is not all that common. As Bertrand Russell rightly pointed out, “in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.” [Marriage and Morals.1929 ch. 5]

Myth 2: Fire alone is not enough to collapse steel buildings.

The conspiracists argue that considering that Meridian Plaza in Philadelphia burned for 19 hours and yet it never collapsed how could the twin towers fall after one and two hours of burning. They also ask, “How could the jet fuel have caused the collapse when the Federal Emergency Management has stated that most of the jet fuel was gone in the initial fire ball?” Moreover, they ask, “How could the fires have caused the collapse at all since tests by Cardington found that steel buildings survive fires with temperatures beyond the range possible with Jet Fuel? Since the black smoke coming from the buildings indicates that the fire was oxygen starved and could not have reached its maximum degrees of 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit and steel melt at much higher temperature of 2,500 degrees Fahrenheit, how could cleanup crews have found melted steel in the basements?”
When a steel structure high-rise catches fire, the only fuel is the furniture inside the building. This does not produce enough heat to melt the steel structures.
When thousands of liters of jet fuel burst at once in a closed space the heat generated is a lot hotter. That is because the heat is trapped. A log burned inside a woodstove can generate more heat than if it is burned in an open space where heat can dissipate into the atmosphere.
However, the buildings were not collapsed because the steel columns melted. They collapsed because the structure was rendered precarious. The heat softened the steel and allowed it to bend precipitating the collapse. It was an added element, but not the main cause.
The South Building fell after just one hour becuse the weight above the damge was more than that of North Building that fell after two hours burning.
Structural damage alone was enough to make the buildings collapse. That was the reason the Building 7 that collapsed.
In June 1995 the Sampoong Department Store in Korea collapsed because of structural failure. At first minor cracks started to show. The cracks widened gradually. It took several days after the cracks were discovered for the structure to finally give in. With so much weight above the point of impact causing so much damage to the columns, the two towers were doomed even without a fire.

Myth 3: Super thermite was used to increase the heat.

Physicists such as Steven E. Jones and Niels Harrit have claimed that within the dust and rubble of the World Trade Center towers lies evidence of “a highly engineered explosive.” They are pointing to traces of active thermitic material, a substance that produces intense localized heat when burned that was found among the rubbles in Ground Zero.
Super thermite can only generate intense heat in small areas. Painting it on one inch thick steel, which is the the thickness of the steel used in building the columns, and setting it on fire does not make the steal hot enough to bend. In fact the fuel will end before the other side of the steel gets hot. This theory is completely unscientific.



But where did the traces of super thermite come from?
Active thermitic material is a combination of elemental aluminum and iron oxide in form of thermite known as “nanostructured super-thermite.” It is used in steel cutting and welding, fireworks shows, hand grenades and demolition.
WTC towers were made with steel welded together. Hundreds of tons of welding rods were used to build the two towers. Of course you’d find thermite in the dust. Wherever there is a structure made with welded steel you will find thermitic material.



More importantly after the collapse of the buildings the columns had to be cut so they could be removed. This allowed thermite to be scattered all over the place and why melted steel was found on the site.


So much for the erudition of these two physicists!

Myth 4: The impact of the wind and storm is greater than the impact of the airliners

One question the conspiracy theorists ask is, “how could the airliners’ impact have caused the collapse when wind gust and storms had at times been greater than the impact of the airliners?” They argue that the buildings were designed to stand the wind force gust of 140 mph that cause a sheer lateral force of 11,000,000 pounds, which exceeds that caused by the airliners.
This is sheer deception. No one has said that the buildings fell because of the impact. The 11,000,000 pound force is sustained by the entire structure, whereas the airliners hit only a small area of the façade. This localized force was enough to destroy the columns. The buildings did not bend because of the impact. They did not fall because of the impact. They collapsed because of the damage caused to the columns that gave in to the weight of 20 and 40 stories above them.

Myth 5: The Twin Towers were destroyed through Controlled demolition.

Another question asked is, “how could the buildings collapse with the speed of gravity? Each floor hit, should have slowed the fall. This couldn’t have happened without explosives placed inside the structure. “
This question may confound those who have little understanding of physics. Why should the floors have slowed down the fall? In fact the weight of the material falling would become bigger and bigger as it goes down. If the first floor below the impact could not resist that weigh falling on it there is no reason to expect that the floors beneath it would resist. The floor were built with similar strength but the weigh falling on each lower floor was greater than the upper floors. This is like expecting layers of cardboard place at a distance to each other held beneath a falling bowling ball slow its fall. Floors are built to support the weight of people and furniture. They are not designed to support the falling weigh of thousands of tons of concrete. Construction workers know that floors cannot support a lot of weight and while storing the construction materials they never put too much weigh in one spot. No floor can stand the falling weigh of 20 or 40 story building. Often the falling weigh of one story is enough for the lower floor to give in. Such an argument is ridiculous.

Myth 6: Explosives were used to demolish the buildings

A few eye witnesses have claimed that they heard several explosions. Jesse Ventura, the conspiracy theorist enthusiast, has interviewed several people who claim they heard, two, three, four, and up to ten explosions.
Ventura heard several contradictory reports. This means that with the exception of at most one, all others lied to him, or merely they are confused people.
There are many videos showing the entire event. None of those videos show any explosion. The huge dust created is caused by the crushing of the concrete.
The best way to debunk the theory of controlled demolition is to watch the collapse of the WTC towers and compare them with controlled demolitions.
In controlled demolitions the columns are perforated and dynamite is placed inside them. When they are detonated the building falls and get crushed as the floors hit the ground. In controlled demolition, the demolition happens from bottom up.
Here are some examples of controlled demolition. Note how elaborate is the process of preparing a building for demolition. Did all these preperations happen in the offices of people in WTC under their nose withouth anyone noticing?

The collapse of the WTC is very different. All the videos show that the demolition is talking place from top to bottom. While the upper floors are being destroyed the floors below them are still standing. They fall as soon as they are hit by the weight of the falling debris.

It takes only a few minutes of attentively watching these videos to dismiss all these asinine conspiracy theories. But this requires a rational mind. That is what most people lack. We human are victims of our own gullibility. We let ourselves to be fooled because we don’t learn critical thinking. We are a stupid species. This is the reason behind our never ending misery. Isn’t the election of Obama proof enough that masses of humanity is just plainly stupid? The majority of mankind all over the world thought this mentally sick man is the Messiah. It it the same people who believe in this stupid conspiracy theory.

Myth 7: The top part of the buildings fell over so there was no weight on floors below.

Another question asked is, “How could the twin towers fall straight down when the damage and resulting fires were only to one corner two sides? Only the tops of the twin towers should have fallen, and they should have fallen over not straight down. In fact the top of one tower did fall unto building 4, so there was no building weight to crush the floors below. So what caused the collapse of those floors?”

This is just a lie. First of all the top parts of the buildings did not fall over but right on the floor below. Here is the picture that shows it.
Secondly why should the building with such a huge floor area fall over? This would have required an enormous lateral force. If the only force in action was gravity there is no reason for the top parts to fall over. Once two sides of the building gave in the other two sides did not have the strength to hold the building in place. The columns bent and the building fell on itself.
This picture is enough to see that the floors below had no chance of standing that weight. The top floor with more weight fell faster than the one with less weight.



Myth 8: The hijackers could not fly.

One of the hijackers’ flight-instructor has said, “I’m still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon. He could not fly at all.”
The hijackers did not have to learn how to take off or land the planes. Steering them in the air does not require a lot of training.
What is the logic behind this argument? Assuming the fanatical Islamic terrorists who cheerfully seek martyrdom to go to heaven were not piloting the planes, who piloted them? Who else is so eager to commit suicide?
The argument is so absurd and even stupid that it does not need any refutation. But it gives us a glimpse into the devious minds of the conspiracy theorists and the gulibility of those who accept them.
The absurdities do not end there. The conspiracists ask. “Isn’t it too much of a coincidence that four hijacked airplanes had only 20% to 50% of their seats filled, while all other transcontinental that day had 70% to 90% of their seats occupied?”
I don’t know how many seats in those hijacked planes were occupied and whether this was highly irregular. The objective of these conspiracy theorists is only to confound and we will see why below. However, let us give them the benefit of the doubt and accept this claim. What are they trying to prove? That those who planned the destruction of the WTC and caused the death of 3000 people were concerned about saving the lives of a few dozen more Americans and hence they decided not to fill the planes with passengers? If the intent was to kill and this was all planned by Bush, Chaney and Condoleezza Rice why not fill the planes to the maximum capacity?
Liars are inconsistent. The goal is to sling so much mud in the hope that some of it may stick. This decietful kind of persenting arguments is typical of all bankrupt ideologies that rely on lies to come to power. It was practiced by the Nazis, the fascists in Italy, the communists all over the world, and now by the leftists and of coures by Muslims who have been doing it for 1400 years. These hate mongers rely on the power of the big lie. The bigger the lie the more credible it sounds.

Who is behind this conspiracy theory?

Lies are promoted because someone benefits from them. Who benefits from spreading this lie?
It is not difficult to see who benefits. Muslims and the leftists are the ones who benefit.
Osama Bin Landen, who has called this attack ghazwah, has gloated about his success. The hijackers are lauded by many Muslim jihadi sites. Isn’t that enough evidence that Muslims were behind it?
Al-Muhajiroun led by Omar Bakri Muhammad and Anjem Choudary organized a conference “The Magnificent 19″, praising the September 11 attacks.
These are facts that the conspiracy theorists ignore, but they cling to baseless theories, none of which is logical or scientific.
Bertrand said, “If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.”
This explains why this stupid conspiracy theory is accepted by so many gullible folk.
The objective is to confound and distract people so the enemy is not stopped. Muslims on one hand lionize the hijackers and at the same time they deny this was done by Muslims. With one side of their mouths they say America had it coming and with the other side they shift the blame on the Jews and the CIA and Bush government. This is all taqiyah. And of course the leftist useful idiots are always on the side of whoever is against America. The more confusion is created the more votes they can grab. They know that their only hope to come to power and stay in power is through lies. Anything that can smear America is welcomed. Any absurdity that can blame the Jews is accepted. They prefer lies to truth even when there is no evidence to support them.
I am not refuting the fact that there is a cabal working in secret societies trying to destroy America to bring what they call the New World Order, as if these diabolical people acting in the dark know what is better for the rest of us. I do not reject that America, and most other countries are controlled by the illuminati and other secret societies of which the average people know nothing. But that is another subject for another time. However, the 9/11 carnage was inspired by the Quran; it was devised by Muslim mujahids; it was perpetrated by Islamic fighters; it was hailed by Muslims as thier great victory and was cheefully celebrated throughout the Muslim world. Let us not fall into the trap of our enemy by spreading their lies.



There is an excellent artilce on the absurdity of this conspiracy theory. Here is a quote from that article:
1. A good conspiracy theory suggests that the government is competent enough to map out the strategy, plan the mission, subvert the individuals required to run the plot and then carry it out without getting caught. For anyone who has ever worked for government, it is known that the level of competency required to create such a conspiracy is beyond that of virtually any government – democratic or otherwise.
2. A conspiracy theory assumes that the government pays its employees enough to remain silent. Given the untold millions that could be made by a single book deal revealing the conspiracy and the relatively low rates of pay in government, this is obviously a ludicrous suggestion.
3. The 9/11 conspiracy theory assumes that the rank and file worker in government who helped carry out the conspiracy would tolerate and assist in the mass murder of their fellow citizens. This might be a fair criticism of senior political leaders in some states, but it is a slanderous accusation for the vast majority of government workers in democratic states.
Please read all this article here. 9/11 Conspiracy Theories – Debunking Richard Gage
And here is another very good article on the subject.
9/11 conspiracy theories: The truth is out there…just not on the internet
Please spread this article and if anyone can help me create a video on this subject I would greatly appreciate it. Lies will keep spreading as long as truth remains hidden. Those who fabricate lies and spread them don’t have our best interest in mind. Let us spread this truth and put an end to this devious lie.

 

[BATMAN]

^^ Using terms like fanatical Islamic terrorist does not prove your point.
Don't forget their are more fanatics in your own religion.

 

[gambit]

superior at what -

Concrete is superior to steel at withstanding a fire. Do you have a problem with reading what I said?

...and at what point does steel even weaken?

Are you really that incompetent with the search feature, of this forum and of the Internet in general? If you are that incompetent, you have no business being on the Internet.

btw great source

Looks like you learned nothing from it.

sometimes trying to be smarter than you are backfires, define "item" - i think the pertinent point is that in the very examples you cite the buildings remain in tact - largely

This is a clear sign that you are now floundering when you demand a definition of a simple word like 'item'.

well there were thousands of people in the BUILDING so ofcourse some remains will be found

but how did the passport survive the inferno, and not only that, it landed safely in tact a few blocks away

so you have to explain

1.how against all odds the passport survived the inferno, the explosions etc etc

2. then how it landed perfectly in tact a few blocks away, unscathed

The passport through the same probabilistic process like how much bits of human flesh and office furnitures survived. Or are you saying that the passport is the only book in the whole city?

the floor is yours gambit.........

Good...And I wiped the floor with you.

 

[PookztA]

The above is Wood's own theory about how orbital energy weapons 'vaporized' the top levels of the WTC Towers. The idea is so loony that most of the loony conspiracy theories believes shied away from association with it. Excluding the 'official' government report, when we see competing theories among the loony conspiracy theories believer camp, from orbital energy weapons to holographic projections of airliners, we have no choice but to dismiss them as that -- loony.

You apparently have not read that article if you mistake an appendix for a theory. Furthermore, if you were even familiar with Dr. Wood's conclusions, you would know that she does NOT conclude that the buildings were 'vaporized', as vaporization involves heat / enthalpy. Dr. Wood shows that the towers were not vaporized, but turned to dust without significant heat. She notes that paper did not burn, among other things. Nowhere on her website does she claim orbital energy weapons and holographic projections were used. So I question why you are promoting this. There seems to be an extraordinary effort being made to divert people from looking at the evidence she presents.

Dr. Wood does not present theories, she presents evidence and evidence alone. Not explosives/jetfuel/airliners/thermite/nuclear weapons or any combination of those can explain all the evidence. Again, a summary of the thousands of photos, graphs, videos, and documents Dr. Wood has gathered can be found here: drjudwood.com/wtc

Best wishes,

-Abe

Abraham Hafiz Rodriguez
M2 Medical Student
B.S. Biology / Neurobiology

 

[r3alist]

theres a lot of gibberish so for the benefit of the mods i will filter and ignore it

The passport through the same probabilistic process like how much bits of human flesh and office furnitures survived. Or are you saying that the passport is the only book in the whole city?

"probabilistic process" - nice phrase :ROFL: - shame it means jackall, or did you mean stochastic process, which may sound impressive but is equally meaningless in the context, or more likely are you just making it up as you go along

to repeat the FACTS.


the passport was in the plane . agree?

what other passport survived?

what other passport survived the various inferno's and explosion, came out on the other side of the building and remained in tact.

that "probabilistic process" is just too good to be true sir.................

 

[gambit]

theres a lot of gibberish so for the benefit of the mods i will filter and ignore it




"probabilistic process" - nice phrase :ROFL: - shame it means jackall, or did you mean stochastic process, which may sound impressive but is equally meaningless in the context, or more likely are you just making it up as you go along

to repeat the FACTS.


the passport was in the plane . agree?

what other passport survived?

what other passport survived the various inferno's and explosion, came out on the other side of the building and remained in tact.

that "probabilistic process" is just too good to be true sir.................

Wow...So the 'reasoning' here is...If one passport survive, others must have. Else the one that survived is a plant. That mean all the debris found are illusions. You might want to stop using words like 'stochastic' if this is how you think.

 

[JonAsad]

Oldest trick in the book, always plant a document with the photo of a person (to be framed) on the crime scene.

In this case a passport.

 

[r3alist]

If one passport survive, others must have. Else the one that survived is a plant

if its possible for one then why not possible for another passport FROM THE PLANE?

or another document FROM THE PLANE - can you not concede that it seems EXTREMELY unlikely


but thats not really the point, since either way you avoid the fact that what a blessed paper passport it was that it SURVIVED THE INFERNO, SURVIVED THE EXPLOSIONS, TRAVELED THROUGH THE WTC and LANDED PERFECTLY IN TACT a few blocks away

once again, i cordially invite you to explain how this happened....

You might want to stop using words like 'stochastic' if this is how you think.

i think i know a thing or two about stochastics since its highly relevant to my field of work, which was way it was particularly funny when you started talking about "probabilistic processes", but we digress.

 

[gambit]

Oldest trick in the book, always plant a document with the photo of a person (to be framed) on the crime scene.

In this case a passport.

Guess the oh-so-scary CIA forgot that playbook. After all, supposedly we invaded Iraq 'for oil', then why not plant something incriminating Iraq?

 

[CardSharp]

Guess the oh-so-scary CIA forgot that playbook. After all, supposedly we invaded Iraq 'for oil', then why not plant something incriminating Iraq?

You're wasting your time Gambit. Think of 9/11 as a litmus test for a person's ability to think critically and logically and move on.

 

[BATMAN]

Why not a state like US who is spending trillions on a war whose very existence is challenged by intellectuals on scientific basis, make a demo by melting iron embedded in concrete with jet fuel?

 

[VCheng]

Gambit: May I quote something here, with permission?

"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with EXPERIENCE!"

 

[gambit]

if its possible for one then why not possible for another passport FROM THE PLANE?

or another document FROM THE PLANE - can you not concede that it seems EXTREMELY unlikely

Another document? Do you even see how you debunked yourself? First you demanded that we be suspicious that a passport survived, now you concede, through this question, that if other items survive a plane crash, then it is nothing unusual that a hijacker's passport did survived.

Here is a 'document' from AA77, the Pentagon attack, that survived a catastrophic event, like a plane crash...

OnlineAthens: News: Vivid memories, but is 9/11's impact fading? 09/11/04

During an interview earlier this week, Koch delicately handled eerie mementos of the crash found during cleanup: Whittington's battered driver's license. One granddaughters' luggage tag.

Here is what people found on the streets...

Frequent flyers knows well enough what an airliner seat cushion look like and that is what the two men were looking at. So if a passport or a driver's license or a luggage tag or human flesh are on the ground, people would definitely take notice.

Further...Not all of AA11's luggage made it on the flight. Normal airline pilots do not deliberately crash into buildings. So when we have four hijacked airliners, three of them deliberately crashed into buildings and a fourth failed due to other factors, of course luggages would be of interests to investigators since they are clues as to the identities of those on the flight. So when some of AA11's luggage was found, we found Atta's luggage and Omari's forged passport along with other valuable clues in said luggage.

but thats not really the point, since either way you avoid the fact that what a blessed paper passport it was that it SURVIVED THE INFERNO, SURVIVED THE EXPLOSIONS, TRAVELED THROUGH THE WTC and LANDED PERFECTLY IN TACT a few blocks away

once again, i cordially invite you to explain how this happened....



i think i know a thing or two about stochastics since its highly relevant to my field of work, which was way it was particularly funny when you started talking about "probabilistic processes", but we digress.

Of course it is the point and one that it is YOU who are avoiding. The aircraft and the building were intricately involved in a catastrophic event. So if items such as paper and human flesh survive, then there is nothing unusual if a passport or a luggage tag or a seat cushion survive. So for now, I have no problem yielding to your claimed experience in statistics and ask that you present credible explanations on why is it so improbable that a passport survive but not so improbable for a luggage tag.