Chinese newspaper vents anger at TSMC over new Arizona fab, calling it a ‘dark turn’ for the global semiconductor industry

[gambit]

to whom? Intel, AMD, Apple, Microsoft, Qualcomm, TI, Google, Amazon? In, U.S., companies are owned privately. All the companies I listed are already working with TSMC. They design what TSMC has to build. The intellectual property remains with the creator of the design.

It really is amazing that he missed that.

TSMC is a foundry. It means their clients designed stuff that they know TSMC is capable of doing. It also mean that clients ALREADY is capable of reaching said nodes in their own labs before they contracted out to TSMC.

 

[epebble]

Private companies, but do they have to follow the sanctions whenever US government seems fit to slap? Do you know what "entity list" is for? Private or not means nothing when comes to geopolitics.

Yes, I know they have to follow the law of the land. My question is, if a "forced transfer" has to be made, to which one of the hundred or so customers will it be made; one, a few, all? Why would Qualcomm. whose expertise is communication, be interested in the nitty gritty of shooting EUV on wafer? Why would AMD be when they decided they will go fabless?

 

[nahtanbob]

By the same logic, there will be no "forced tech transfer" or "coercive business practice" that US government has always accused China of.

what the f**k are you talking about ?
Most of the chip companies Intel, TI, AMD know more about semiconductors than anyone else

 

[Dungeness]

What I know is probably more than you...

Should you know chip process more than I do as you worked in Intel before, but what you know about chips has nothing to do if TSMC had "choice Not to move" to US or not. Too bad, all 3 of you did not understand the question in hand.

 

[jhungary]

Private companies, but do they have to follow the sanctions whenever US government seems fit to slap? Do you know what "entity list" is for? Private or not means nothing when comes to geopolitics.

What sanction have to do with private company. It's part of company law, it's like every business have to registered with Business Bureau, does that mean BB own every business??

And no. Company does not require to follow whatever sanction US government seems fit to slap. There are several ways to go around sanction, from changing the location of business to applying for an exemption permit or even some company ignore it altogether and just keep paying fine to DOC.

 

[fallstuff]

This is what I learned so far, they are quite a few posters without a college degrees on PDF with a thing against college degree !

 

[Dungeness]

What sanction have to do with private company. It's part of company law, it's like every business have to registered with Business Bureau, does that mean BB own every business??

And no. Company does not require to follow whatever sanction US government seems fit to slap. There are several ways to go around sanction, from changing the location of business to applying for an exemption permit or even some company ignore it altogether and just keep paying fine to DOC.

You should understand the context of the discussion. If every private companies has to follow scanctions that Government slaps on any competitiors at will, these companies are not free to make independent business decision, rather, they become a tool of the government. In this sense, private company or SOE make no difference.

 

[gambit]

You should understand the context of the discussion. If every private companies has to follow scanctions that Government slaps on any competitiors at will, these companies are not free to make independent business decision, rather, they become a tool of the government. In this sense, private company or SOE make no difference.

The problem here is that TSMC is NOT a US company but a Taiwanese company.

The world depends on Taiwan for semicon products but TSMC depends on certain hard/software from the US and Europe to make semicon products. In fact, TSMC became the world's best on that dependency. Still, TSMC being a Taiwanese company is completely free to abandon that dependency and set out on their own or even go to China. But TSMC want to retain their global leadership, so they made their choice -- the US. They believe China is the less palatable option.

 

[Dungeness]

The problem here is that TSMC is NOT a US company but a Taiwanese company.

The world depends on Taiwan for semicon products but TSMC depends on certain hard/software from the US and Europe to make semicon products. In fact, TSMC became the world's best on that dependency. Still, TSMC being a Taiwanese company is completely free to abandon that dependency and set out on their own or even go to China. But TSMC want to retain their global leadership, so they made their choice -- the US. They believe China is the less palatable option.

Therefore, US can and will sanction TSMC should it refuse to comply to US demand, which will crip or even render the greatest semiconductor company worthless. That how US disables Huawei, or Alstom of France or entire Japanese semiconductor industries in 90's.

Thus, your original argument that TSMC has choice not to move to US was wrong. Sure you try to argue that one can always choose to commit suicide, so he has choice, then nothing I can say.

 

[gambit]

Therefore, US can and will sanction TSMC should it refuse to comply to US demand, which will crip or even render the greatest semiconductor company worthless. That how US disables Huawei, or Alstom of France or entire Japanese semiconductor industries in 90's.

Thus, your original argument that TSMC has choice not to move to US was wrong. Sure you try to argue that one can always choose to commit suicide, so he has choice, then nothing I can say.

There is a saying in the US: The dildo of consequences are never lubed.

TSMC looked at the alternative -- China -- and decided not to take that chance. Or we can look at TSMC's situation another way -- that China, the way you are, pushed TSMC towards US, thus avoiding that dildo of consequences.

 

[jhungary]

You should understand the context of the discussion. If every private companies has to follow scanctions that Government slaps on any competitiors at will, these companies are not free to make independent business decision, rather, they become a tool of the government. In this sense, private company or SOE make no difference.

And YOU should understand the scope of discussion.

Your point being Private Company are forced to enforce a country law.
My point being, it is not. It is up to that company to relay such law. You, as a company director, have option NOT TO BE FORCED on applying sanction. Even if that option is illegal, the point being, if you don't want to, you don't have to.

If every Company in the US was forced to apply sanction, then there is no way there are Cuban Cigar, Huawei Phone or Tablet available in the US. The fact is, I can buy a Cuban cigar and I can buy a Huawei phone in the US, meaning it was not forced on to the company level. Because they won't be finding way to circumvent it. And that's an option, whether it was legal or not.

 

[nahtanbob]

Therefore, US can and will sanction TSMC should it refuse to comply to US demand, which will crip or even render the greatest semiconductor company worthless. That how US disables Huawei, or Alstom of France or entire Japanese semiconductor industries in 90's.

Thus, your original argument that TSMC has choice not to move to US was wrong. Sure you try to argue that one can always choose to commit suicide, so he has choice, then nothing I can say.

you have a choice - build your own semiconductor manufacturing equipment. it is like the covid vaccines

 

[Dungeness]

There is a saying in the US: The dildo of consequences are never lubed.

TSMC looked at the alternative -- China -- and decided not to take that chance. Or we can look at TSMC's situation another way -- that China, the way you are, pushed TSMC towards US, thus avoiding that dildo of consequences.

No, TSMC never really has this choice if its very own survival is in question, otherwise they wouldn't have stopped supplying to Huawei.

Acturally I understand the reason that USA government has to bag TSMC, it's dirty but necessary. The problem I have is US government has always acussed China of the crime of "force tech transfer" or "coercive business practice" while doing all these dirty jobs. Like a whore acuses others not being a virgin.

 

[Dungeness]

And YOU should understand the scope of discussion.

Your point being Private Company are forced to enforce a country law.
My point being, it is not. It is up to that company to relay such law. You, as a company director, have option NOT TO BE FORCED on applying sanction. Even if that option is illegal, the point being, if you don't want to, you don't have to.

If every Company in the US was forced to apply sanction, then there is no way there are Cuban Cigar, Huawei Phone or Tablet available in the US. The fact is, I can buy a Cuban cigar and I can buy a Huawei phone in the US, meaning it was not forced on to the company level. Because they won't be finding way to circumvent it. And that's an option, whether it was legal or not.

We are talking about the companies on entity list that US suppliers can't do business with, not some random products. Not sure what point you try to make by bringing Cuban cigar. Or you are telling me US sanction have no effect in the world whatsoever?

 

[nahtanbob]

No, TSMC never really has this choice if its very own survival is in question, otherwise they wouldn't have stopped supplying to Huawei.

Acturally I understand the reason that USA government has to bag TSMC, it's dirty but necessary. The problem I have is US government has always acussed China of the crime of "force tech transfer" or "coercive business practice" while doing all these dirty jobs. Like a whore acuses others not being a virgin.

China has a record of forced technology transfer and broken promises to foreign companies. you do not need the US government to accuse you