Chinese companies vanish from world's top 10 by market cap

[kankan326]

Does anyone of these are producing ANY real energy? BTW, Thorium reactors have been studied a LOT at los almos. Infact US built and operated a Molten Salt reactor back then. None of Chinese work here is even near what was being done in USA during golden age of nuclear power.

You are clueless. Molten salt is to replace water as the medium of energy transfer. Thorium is the material that generates energy. Go google how revolutionary it is to substitute Uranium
by Thorium. China's Thorium reactors are already in operation. One step away from commerical application. China has made solar energy cost close to conventional electricity cost. Which is also a great achievement.

No one knows what is needed for automatic drive right now, so a current standard is useless in that area. Not to mention the need for dense tower network in 5G makes entire automated driving usecase quite useless with 5G.

Imagine a Tesla car without automated driving in the future. It's like today's Nokia phone. Automated driving is only a scrap of 5G applications. Too many fields need instant information transfer. The profit brought by fast information transfer revolution will be much much higher than the infrastructure investment.

No. That will be Canada. Most of the pathbreaking research in Deep Learning came out of University of Toronto.

You just asked if China's new energy projects produced any real energy. Suddenly China's vast applications in AI and related IP become meaningless for you. Demand creates technology progress. It applied to US during its golden age. Also applies to China.

Global top websites by monthly visits 2023 | Statista

Google, Youtube, and Facebook ranked among the most visited websites worldwide, with billions of monthly visits.

www.statista.com

You know, China is not the world. Do not fall for CCP lies.

Lie or what. Don't be too lazy. Google it by yourself.

 

[KrimesKaster]

You are clueless. Molten salt is to replace water as the medium of energy transfer. Thorium is the material that generates energy. Go google how revolutionary it is to substitute Uranium

*Ahem* You never heard of MSRE : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-Salt_Reactor_Experiment ?

The MSRE was a 7.4 MWth test reactor simulating the neutronic "kernel" of a type of inherently safer epithermal thorium breeder reactor called the liquid fluoride thorium reactor. It primarily used two fuels: first uranium-235 and later uranium-233. The latter 233UF4 was the result of breeding from thorium in other reactors.

Thorium by itself cannot generate energy. It needs to be breeded into U-233 first. Chinese always act as if they invented everything under the sun.

Lie or what. Don't be too lazy. Google it by yourself.

Sorry dear : https://www.alexa.com/topsites
Alexa ranking is as official as it gets.
No, TikTok is not even close.

Only cloudflare ranks it higher than google but cloudflare is not exactly best source of web analytics.

Imagine a Tesla car without automated driving in the future. It's like today's Nokia phone. Automated driving is only a scrap of 5G applications. Too many fields need instant information transfer. The profit brought by fast information transfer revolution will be much much higher than the infrastructure investment.

Lol! We are hearing 5G this 5G that for now what 3-4 years? Its a solution searching for problem.
Oh, Tesla is doing automated driving without any 5G just fine.

Lastly, Tesla without automated driving will always be very useful : Its an electric car. Last I checked there is no working fully automated driving system right now. It will come when it will be ready. And that is still in future.

Suddenly China's vast applications in AI and related IP become meaningless for you.

US/Canada IPs and AI fundamental research is lightyears ahead of anything China is remotely capable of fielding. China is only good for having massive deployments of technology due to its size.

 

[kankan326]

*Ahem* You never heard of MSRE : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-Salt_Reactor_Experiment ?

Thorium by itself cannot generate energy. It needs to be breeded into U-233 first. Chinese always act as if they invented everything under the sun.

Where is US Thorium reactor now? Does it exist? China's Thorium reactors are IN OPERATION. China leads the world in artificial sun experiement. China made solar energy as cheap as traditional electricity. I listed the examples to prove "China companies did well or better than US private companies in new energy". If you don't agree with me, name another country that is doing better than China in new energe NOW.

Sorry dear : https://www.alexa.com/topsites
Alexa ranking is as official as it gets.
No, TikTok is not even close.

Only cloudflare ranks it higher than google but cloudflare is not exactly best source of web analytics.

In your link I saw Sohu and Baidu but no Tiktok. What the heck is that? You call this as “official”？ No one in China believes your rank. Sohu is an almost forgotten website in China. I guess your rank only listed traditional websites. Apps are not included. You just choose to believe what you want to believe.

Lol! We are hearing 5G this 5G that for now what 3-4 years? Its a solution searching for problem.
Oh, Tesla is doing automated driving without any 5G just fine.

Lastly, Tesla without automated driving will always be very useful : Its an electric car. Last I checked there is no working fully automated driving system right now. It will come when it will be ready. And that is still in future.

Simple question: Can you deny instant communication technologies are needed in many fields? Why you are so negative to that? Is it because China is ahead of US in this field?

US/Canada IPs and AI fundamental research is lightyears ahead of anything China is remotely capable of fielding. China is only good for having massive deployments of technology due to its size.

From all sources China ranks world 2. I know you have your own way to make China looks in nowhere. You are good at it.

AI Research Rankings 2020: Can the United States Stay Ahead of China?

A heated debate is going on today on the state of the strategic race between the USA and China to dominate in AI. Curious to learn more?

chuvpilo.medium.com

 

[TigerOfMysore]

You know USA and US capitalism has existed for longer than China has been of any major consequence. China has been of any importance economically only since 1990s.

Actually thats not far from truth!
Chinese state enterprises and even Chinese military are assets of Chinese Communist Party -- a private entity!
In reality, China is a country owned by CCP and it is as capitalistic as it gets. Since 1980s China has been doing capitalism decently. Of course while making CCP immensely rich and powerful.

I am tempted to respond, but just too tired to teach a lesson.

 

[KrimesKaster]

Where is US Thorium reactor now? Does it exist? China's Thorium reactors are IN OPERATION. China leads the world in artificial sun experiement. China made solar energy as cheap as traditional electricity. I listed the examples to prove "China companies did well or better than US private companies in new energy". If you don't agree with me, name another country that is doing better than China in new energe NOW.

USA Operated Thorium reactor back in 1965. Let that sink in. All this hoopla on China this and China that is ancient history in USA.

They decided against taking thorium reactors further because it was not producing plutonium to make nuclear weapons. US civilian nuclear program was built with a purpose to maximize nuclear fuel for nuclear weapons and submarines back then. They experimented with all sorts of reactor design, including all these thorium reactors that you are so much trying to dub as Chinese. Electricity was a byproduct for US because it was not short on electricty back then due to having massive number of hydro power plants built during 30s for fighting off the Big Depression.

Simple question: Can you deny instant communication technologies are needed in many fields? Why you are so negative to that? Is it because China is ahead of US in this field?

5G is NOT the only way to move massive amount of data fast. 5G has been more of a solution searching for a problem till now. May be it will have a perfect problem, just not now.

From all sources China ranks world 2. I know you have your own way to make China looks in nowhere. You are good at it.

Trouble with most of the sources you are mentioning is this: They are naive number counting. In research, one single pathbreaking research has MASSIVE impact than 1000 other research. Try this. Find the original paper for ResNet and see the number of citations it got. It will be massive like 10s or 100s of thousands. A typical Highly cited research paper gets 100s. A typical research paper gets 1-10 citation. Most get none. This is the difference between two.

See this : https://arxiv.org/abs/1512.03385 (Deep Residual Learning for Image Recognition). This is original ResNet paper. It has 101K citation. Meaning 101 thousand other researcher used this research in their work in some form.

Now see this : https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7395784
This is work (from 2015, same year as ResNet Paper) from http://www.xlhu.cn/ , He is a Assoc. Prof at Tsinguha University. This work won a first prize in a competition too. It is cited by 7 papers.

A more successful work by same Prof : https://proceedings.neurips.cc/paper/2015/hash/9cf81d8026a9018052c429cc4e56739b-Abstract.html
This has been cited by 80 odd papers. And its fairly successful, I will call it highly cited one.

Now you see? A prof and researcher at top Chinese university has done some good research but they are not even close to path breaking research (ResNet) done at U. Toronto and Google. This is the difference.

China is doing a lot of research but path breaking research is still limited to top western universities and their corporate sponsors. May be it will change in due time. I don't know.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

USA Operated Thorium reactor back in 1965. Let that sink in. All this hoopla on China this and China that is ancient history in USA.

They decided against taking thorium reactors further because it was not producing plutonium to make nuclear weapons. US civilian nuclear program was built with a purpose to maximize nuclear fuel for nuclear weapons and submarines back then. They experimented with all sorts of reactor design, including all these thorium reactors that you are so much trying to dub as Chinese. Electricity was a byproduct for US because it was not short on electricty back then due to having massive number of hydro power plants built during 30s for fighting off the Big Depression.


5G is NOT the only way to move massive amount of data fast. 5G has been more of a solution searching for a problem till now. May be it will have a perfect problem, just not now.


Trouble with most of the sources you are mentioning is this: They are naive number counting. In research, one single pathbreaking research has MASSIVE impact than 1000 other research. Try this. Find the original paper for ResNet and see the number of citations it got. It will be massive like 10s or 100s of thousands. A typical Highly cited research paper gets 100s. A typical research paper gets 1-10 citation. Most get none. This is the difference between two.

Gents not sure what we are arguing. There is no doubt that US R&D is still at an aggregate level leading the world in quality terms. Only a few years ago it lead the world in quantity terms as well. Of late the Chinese have closed that gap feverishly. It has out stripped the US in scientific paper output. It still remains a behind the US in terms of quality but that gap has significantly narrowed in the last decade. In some areas Chinese research has taken on the top level as well. All of this is very fluid. I expect the US to still lead scientific research in quality terms for the next decade, but after that all bets are off. I expect the Chinese to lead both in quantitative and also qualitative within the next decade and half. There are some things that can both slow that or accelerate that transition.

 

[nang2]

Gents not sure what we are arguing. There is no doubt that US R&D is still at an aggregate level leading the world in quality terms. Only a few years ago it lead the world in quantity terms as well. Of late the Chinese have closed that gap feverishly. It has out stripped the US in scientific paper output. It still remains a behind the US in terms of quality but that gap has significantly narrowed in the last decade. In some areas Chinese research has taken on the top level as well. All of this is very fluid. I expect the US to still lead scientific research in quality terms for the next decade, but after that all bets are off. I expect the Chinese to lead both in quantitative and also qualitative within the next decade and half. There are some things that can both slow that or accelerate that transition.

I am more pessimistic about China (not Chinese) leading in research quality. The quality of any research is mostly determined by the quality of the human mind plus a little bit of luck. The quality of the human mind is also influenced by how free it is. A less constrained mind is more likely to tap into something significant. Although in US, the freedom has been gradually corroded by all types of political correctness, keep in mind that socialism is the granddaddy of political correctness.

 

[KrimesKaster]

Of late the Chinese have closed that gap feverishly. It has out stripped the US in scientific paper output. It still remains a behind the US in terms of quality but that gap has significantly narrowed in the last decade. In some areas Chinese research has taken on the top level as well. All of this is very fluid. I expect the US to still lead scientific research in quality terms for the next decade, but after that all bets are off. I expect the Chinese to lead both in quantitative and also qualitative within the next decade and half. There are some things that can both slow that or accelerate that transition.

This is exactly what I am pointing out. Path breaking research is still a domain of US/Canada/EU. Atleast in new fangled AI etc. Most of path breaking work come from these places. China has done really well in deploying technology to a massive scale.

 

[KrimesKaster]

I am more pessimistic about China (not Chinese) leading in research quality. The quality of any research is mostly determined by the quality of the human mind plus a little bit of luck. The quality of the human mind is also influenced by how free it is. A less constrained mind is more likely to tap into something significant. Although in US, the freedom has been gradually corroded by all types of political correctness, keep in mind that socialism is the granddaddy of political correctness.

Actually, reasons are more complicated. First is just inertia. US/Canada/EU has been at forefront for long so they are continuing for now atleast. Then colonialism is a reason too. Most of the rest of the world (perhaps leaving China) was colonized in one way or the other and had to adapt a european language. This means educated folks in these place know one of the european languages. And that helped brain drain. People from entire world flocked into european countries or USA/Canada due to this. China still needs to overcome this. It will either adapt english as a major language in its academicia or may be help those who want to come and research there by bridging them to Chinese somehow...

Same problem plagued Japanese effort to attract talent from all over the world in their universities and later corporate. Japanese had the most generous scholarship programs but language barriers prevented them getting the best talent.

 

[nang2]

Actually, reasons are more complicated. First is just inertia. US/Canada/EU has been at forefront for long so they are continuing for now atleast. Then colonialism is a reason too. Most of the rest of the world (perhaps leaving China) was colonized in one way or the other and had to adapt a european language. This means educated folks in these place know one of the european languages. And that helped brain drain. People from entire world flocked into european countries or USA/Canada due to this. China still needs to overcome this. It will either adapt english as a major language in its academicia or may be help those who want to come and research there by bridging them to Chinese somehow...

Same problem plagued Japanese effort to attract talent from all over the world in their universities and later corporate. Japanese had the most generous scholarship programs but language barriers prevented them getting the best talent.

For sure. However, I don't think languages are the biggest barrier. Languages are easy to learn as long as one can overcome his own prejudice and ego. Think how easy it is for a child to learn new languages/dialects.

I would say culture may be the biggest barrier. Western world is unique in the sense that they are less enforcing on conformity and more tolerant towards individuality. By contrast, in Japan (China and Korea as well), conformity is more encouraged than individuality. Innovations, especially those that are groundbreaking and norm shattering, are hard to come by with conformity, which favors the old and existing. Historically, Japan is a great student. But being a student means more about following than leading.

 

[kankan326]

USA Operated Thorium reactor back in 1965. Let that sink in. All this hoopla on China this and China that is ancient history in USA.

They decided against taking thorium reactors further because it was not producing plutonium to make nuclear weapons. US civilian nuclear program was built with a purpose to maximize nuclear fuel for nuclear weapons and submarines back then. They experimented with all sorts of reactor design, including all these thorium reactors that you are so much trying to dub as Chinese. Electricity was a byproduct for US because it was not short on electricty back then due to having massive number of hydro power plants built during 30s for fighting off the Big Depression.

Remember what you are trying to do here. You are supposed to refute my opinion that China did great in new energy. US running thorium reactors decades ago doesn't make China's ongoing work less important. You are trying to deny all China's achievement by deny just one spot. Not persuasive at all. What about the artificial sun? I want to see how you make this achievement pointless. By the way China has just set a new record: Running the reactor for 1056 seconds.

5G is NOT the only way to move massive amount of data fast. 5G has been more of a solution searching for a problem till now. May be it will have a perfect problem, just not now.

You just used history to deny China's achievements in new energy. Now you are trying to use future to deny 5G. Cunning.

Trouble with most of the sources you are mentioning is this: They are naive number counting. In research, one single pathbreaking research has MASSIVE impact than 1000 other research. Try this. Find the original paper for ResNet and see the number of citations it got. It will be massive like 10s or 100s of thousands. A typical Highly cited research paper gets 100s. A typical research paper gets 1-10 citation. Most get none. This is the difference between two.

See this : https://arxiv.org/abs/1512.03385 (Deep Residual Learning for Image Recognition). This is original ResNet paper. It has 101K citation. Meaning 101 thousand other researcher used this research in their work in some form.

Now see this : https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7395784
This is work (from 2015, same year as ResNet Paper) from http://www.xlhu.cn/ , He is a Assoc. Prof at Tsinguha University. This work won a first prize in a competition too. It is cited by 7 papers.

A more successful work by same Prof : https://proceedings.neurips.cc/paper/2015/hash/9cf81d8026a9018052c429cc4e56739b-Abstract.html
This has been cited by 80 odd papers. And its fairly successful, I will call it highly cited one.

Now you see? A prof and researcher at top Chinese university has done some good research but they are not even close to path breaking research (ResNet) done at U. Toronto and Google. This is the difference.

China is doing a lot of research but path breaking research is still limited to top western universities and their corporate sponsors. May be it will change in due time. I don't know.

Again. China is a later comer in AI. Of course early comers would make more breakthroughs. But still China can be called "successful" considering the achievements it made in the short time.

By the way, did you see the authors names in this high cited ResNet paper. They are all Chinese names. Even though the college is in US. I guess many Chinese researchers are also invovled in your socalled breakthrough researches. China has the future in AI.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

Remember what you are trying to do here. You are supposed to refute my opinion that China did great in new energy. US running thorium reactors decades ago doesn't make China's ongoing work less important. You are trying to deny all China's achievement by deny just one spot. Not persuasive at all. What about the artificial sun? I want to see how you make this achievement pointless. By the way China has just set a new record: Running the reactor for 1056 seconds.

You just used history to deny China's achievements in new energy. Now you are trying to use future to deny 5G. Cunning.


Again. China is a later comer in AI. Of course early comers would make more breakthroughs. But still China can be called "successful" considering the achievements it made in the short time.

By the way, did you see the authors names in this high cited ResNet paper. They are all Chinese names. Even though the college is in US. I guess many Chinese researchers are also invovled in your socalled breakthrough researches. China has the future in AI.

View attachment 806222

China's work in Quantum mechanics/computing/communications, AI, Nuclear reactor research and design, renewable energy, automation and robotics, digital economy is either leading in the world or at par with leading western countries.

 

[KrimesKaster]

Remember what you are trying to do here. You are supposed to refute my opinion that China did great in new energy. US running thorium reactors decades ago doesn't make China's ongoing work less important. You are trying to deny all China's achievement by deny just one spot. Not persuasive at all. What about the artificial sun? I want to see how you make this achievement pointless. By the way China has just set a new record: Running the reactor for 1056 seconds.

No, all I am saying is this: Thorium is NOT a new energy source that you are claiming. Technology and science behind it are know for WAY too long. Thorium has been studied for a very long term as a potential energy source and US had investigated it as a fissile material. I do not know enough about fusion research so I won't comment on it.

Again. China is a later comer in AI. Of course early comers would make more breakthroughs. But still China can be called "successful" considering the achievements it made in the short time.

By the way, did you see the authors names in this high cited ResNet paper. They are all Chinese names. Even though the college is in US. I guess many Chinese researchers are also invovled in your socalled breakthrough researches. China has the future in AI.

No one is denying Chinese origin people do some great research. They do a lot of great things in US universities. US STEM field is dominated by Chinese, Indians, Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese, Russians and other Asians/East Europeans. I never said "Chinese origin people" are not doing great work in US/Canada/EU. I only said, China herself is not at forefront of AI as you are suggesting it is. Naive counting of publication or patents is a wrong metrics as you have seen it now how different ResNet and a normal --admittedly successful-- paper is.

China's work in Quantum mechanics/computing/communications, AI, Nuclear reactor research and design, renewable energy, automation and robotics, digital economy is either leading in the world or at par with leading western countries.

No. Not even close.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

No, all I am saying is this: Thorium is NOT a new energy source that you are claiming. Technology and science behind it are know for WAY too long. Thorium has been studied for a very long term as a potential energy source and US had investigated it as a fissile material. I do not know enough about fusion research so I won't comment on it.


No one is denying Chinese origin people do some great research. They do a lot of great things in US universities. US STEM field is dominated by Chinese, Indians, Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese, Russians and other Asians/East Europeans. I never said "Chinese origin people" are not doing great work in US/Canada/EU. I only said, China herself is not at forefront of AI as you are suggesting it is. Naive counting of publication or patents is a wrong metrics as you have seen it now how different ResNet and a normal --admittedly successful-- paper is.

No. Not even close.

Sorry buddy - I beg to differ. I say this respectfully, it is this mindset in the West that will be its unbecoming. The West will cheerlead itself wrapped in their flags - singing praise to itself, while it sinks. Chinese work in Quantum communications (I am being specific), Nuclear Reactor designs (I am being specific), AI and Digital economy (which dwarfs Amazon), is not even questioned by people in this field. So not sure where you are coming from.

 

[mike2000 is back]

Google, Microsoft, Nvidia, Intel were born when US was at its peak time. When all money, talents flooded to US. Who created the golden age of US. Definitely not private companies themselves. It was US government. From Roosevelt's contributions to overcoming economic crisis and winning the wold war 2, to government dominated investments in military and space race with Soviet Union. Those private companies were born in right place and at right time. They were the tuyere pigs that can fly easily.

Chinese companies can not win these American private companies because they were late comers and the monopolies in these fields had already been formed. The timing is gone. However, Chinese companies performed well even better than American companies in the newest industies. AI, EV, 5G, new energy, even the new type of internet plateform(Tiktok). Because unlike 20 years ago, US is not the only hot spot for investment. China has fostered its own innovation environment.

Yeah but Chinese Internet/tech companies seem to be in recess nowadays with Xi Jinpings new crackdowns and desire to favour more state owned companies , since he views Private companies as too independent from the party and state companies to be better since they are controlled by the Party and heed their every call, compared to private companies who have their own priorities and interests they go after.

As Beijing Takes Control, Chinese Tech Companies Lose Jobs and Hope (Published 2022)

The crackdown is killing the entrepreneurial drive that made China a tech power and destroying jobs that used to attract the country’s brightest.

www.nytimes.com

Guess we will see in a few years where China's biggest tech/Internet companies will fare and if they can rise back up from this new atmosphere especially If this downward trajectory will carry on due to the new suppressive environment, unlike before where they were growing so big as to even expand abroad and challenge US biggest companies globally, now they have been receeding themselves back into their home shelter, halting any international expansions , laying off staffs, changing leaderships/CEOs and laying low for fear of standing out touch too much and facing crackdown even more.

Seems government is also sending mixed signals and uncertainty which is never good for private businesses. Since most times even the censorship laws they enact is not always very clear and precise and can open to vague interpretations, hence it makes companies even reluctant or scared to create some certain type of products or industry for fear of censorship/retribution. I think government ought to make the rules clear. Except their aim is to cut down private enterprises down to shape , then that will make sense.

You know, China is not the world. Do not fall for CCP lies.

Yes agree. Funny thing is that the only Chinese global brand that has succeeded in having a global presence and household name globally and be able to challenge established US private tech internet companies worlwide is TIKTOK owned by bytedance which funny enough IS A PRIVATE CHINESE COMPANY, nor a state owned one. Same with other Chinese companies who are relatively successful abroad like Xioami, Oppo, Huawei (pre US sanctions .lol ), Hisense, DJI , etc etc. They are all private companies.
Let's see how state owned Chinese tech companies will fare globally since it seems the government wants to push those forward instead . Lol