Chinese Communism - All Chinese members invited

[MultaniGuy]

@beijingwalker
@Beast


Perhaps you can enlighten us about Chinese Communism.

I do not have a problem with Socialism or Communism. Only the atheistic component of Communism I disagree with.

For us Pakistanis, religion is our ideology and the only thing that matters to us.

Regards,

@MultaniGuy

 

[beijingwalker]

I m not a communist member and I don't believe in communism, I think communism is just an Utopia, Chinese communist party rules China with the Chinese traditional Confucius way of governance, merits and values, communist elements are added, which the party needs for its legitimacy.

As for religion part, I m agnostic, I believe there must be a powerful intelligence behind everything in this well organized and operated universe, but It'll be impossible for us to find out what it is.

 

[Brainsucker]

I m not a communist member and I don't believe in communism, I think communism is just an Utopia, Chinese communist party rules China with the Chinese traditional Confucius way of governance, merits and values, communist elements are added, which the party needs for its legitimacy.

As for religion part, I m agnostic, I believe there must be a powerful intelligence behind everything in this well organized and operated universe, but It'll be impossible for us to find out what it is.

What I'm curious now is why China still defend Communism, when that ideology is actually imported from Europe, and China actually has a similar doctrine like communism. The Mohism; that actually more fit to Chinese characteristic than Communism.

Plus, why Xi prefer to re-adopt Confucius when the teaching actually very different to Communism. Remember, that Confucius didn't believe in equality. Even older brother and the younger one had different strata based on seniority. So why not adopt the long lost teaching of Mohism instead? Who belief more on equality.

Of course, there are many things that the original Mohism doesn't relevant anymore to today China. But if Confucius could had revision and adaption and became "Neo Confucius", then Mohism can also get a new adaption to be relevant again in today world.

 

[beijingwalker]

What I'm curious now is why China still defend Communism, when that ideology is actually imported from Europe, and China actually has a similar doctrine like communism. The Mohism; that actually more fit to Chinese characteristic than Communism.

I agree, China doesn't really have to stick to communism, it's all about legitimacy, the current leaders inherited the leadership from their predecessors and this communist mantle needs to be kept.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

What I'm curious now is why China still defend Communism, when that ideology is actually imported from Europe, and China actually has a similar doctrine like communism. The Mohism; that actually more fit to Chinese characteristic than Communism.

Plus, why Xi prefer to re-adopt Confucius when the teaching actually very different to Communism. Why not adopt the long lost teaching the Mohism instead?

Like Communism, the thousand of years Mohism teaching also believe in equality, and they love craftmanship so much. Just like today Chinese mentality.

China had proto-socialism even in 200 BC with 榷盐, the state owned salt enterprise, and the state owned food enterprise directly participated in the market to keep price stability.

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www.163.com

社会主义/共产主义 is not strictly socialism, it is its own thing, from Chinese and Japanese roots. It is as related to European socialism as Latin letters are to Phonecian cuneiform.

@beijingwalker
@Beast


Perhaps you can enlighten us about Chinese Communism.

I do not have a problem with Socialism or Communism. Only the atheistic component of Communism I disagree with.

For us Pakistanis, religion is our ideology and the only thing that matters to us.

Regards,

@MultaniGuy

Atheism is not a strict requirement. It just so happened that in Asian countries like China, Korea, Vietnam, Japan, etc, most people are not strongly religious. But in other parts of the world, religion is a key component of socialism. Even in Russia, people are not so religious.

Islamic socialism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Liberation theology - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Note that in the page on liberation theology, they note that dalits convert to other religions specifically to escape Hinduism and become socialist.

 

[MultaniGuy]

China had proto-socialism even in 200 BC with 榷盐, the state owned salt enterprise, and the state owned food enterprise directly participated in the market to keep price stability.

百度百科-验证

百度百科是一部内容开放、自由的网络百科全书，旨在创造一个涵盖所有领域知识，服务所有互联网用户的中文知识性百科全书。在这里你可以参与词条编辑，分享贡献你的知识。

baike.baidu.com

解æ丨ä¸å½å¤ä»£å¦ä½è§£å³ç²®é£æµéåå¨å¤é®é¢

解æ丨ä¸å½å¤ä»£å¦ä½è§£å³ç²®é£æµéåå¨å¤é®é¢,æ±åç,ç¾è,ç²®ä»,å£ç²®,ç²®åº

www.163.com

社会主义/共产主义 is not strictly socialism, it is its own thing, from Chinese and Japanese roots. It is as related to European socialism as Latin letters are to Phonecian cuneiform.


Atheism is not a strict requirement. It just so happened that in China and Japan, most people are not strongly religious. But in other parts of the world, religion is a key component of socialism.

Islamic socialism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Liberation theology - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Note that in the page on liberation theology, they note that dalits convert to other religions specifically to escape Hinduism and become socialist.

Exactly, Islamists in Pakistan, could promote "Islamic Socialism."

This is what Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto tried to do.

I agree, China doesn't really have to stick to communism, it's all about legitimacy, the current leaders inherited the leadership from their predecessors and this communist mantle needs to be kept.

I am not Chinese, so I do not have a right to comment on this matter, but anyways China does not need Communism.

China can stick to the old traditional values such as Confucianism that formed Chinese nationalism before Mao Zedong and the Communist revolution in China.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Exactly, Islamists in Pakistan, could promote "Islamic Socialism."

This is what Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto tried to do.


I am not Chinese, so I do not have a right to comment on this matter, but anyways China does not need Communism.

China can stick to the old traditional values that formed Chinese nationalism before Mao Zedong and the Communist revolution in China.

Chinese tried the old traditional values. They failed. There were 3 reforms during the 19th century that attempted to revolutionize and strengthen China:

1. Taiping Rebellion where a theocracy was tried. It failed.
2. Qing Self Strengthening Movement where the monarchy was given even more power. It failed.
3. The 1911 Xinhai Revolution where the monarchy was overthrown in favor of a western nationalist republic. It failed.

The only movement that succeeded in strengthening China was the socialist revolution led by Mao.

East Asians mostly care about the end results. The end results say that theocracy failed, monarchy failed, and western style nationalism failed, but socialism worked. Note that monarchy even failed for Japan, since they were still defeated in the end, while China was not. Whether western systems worked for Japan, South Korea, etc. is still up for debate, as they relied on the US. If they were sanctioned the way China was sanctioned and is still sanctioned today, they'd fall. This is actually proven: Japan was sanctioned in 1930 for invading China, and ran out of oil, forcing it to invade Southeast Asia, which would've drawn in the US, so they decided they should try to strike first, and the rest was history.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Chinese tried the old traditional values. They failed. There were 3 reforms during the 19th century that attempted to revolutionize and strengthen China:

1. Taiping Rebellion where a theocracy was tried. It failed.
2. Qing Self Strengthening Movement where the monarchy was given even more power. It failed.
3. The 1911 Xinhai Revolution where the monarchy was overthrown in favor of a western nationalist republic. It failed.

The only movement that succeeded in strengthening China was the socialist revolution led by Mao.

East Asians mostly care about the end results. The end results say that theocracy failed, monarchy failed, and western style nationalism failed, but socialism worked. Note that monarchy even failed for Japan, since they were still defeated in the end, while China was not. Whether western systems worked for Japan, South Korea, etc. is still up for debate, as they relied on the US. If they were sanctioned the way China was sanctioned and is still sanctioned today, they'd fall. This is actually proven: Japan was sanctioned in 1930 for invading China, and ran out of oil, forcing it to invade Southeast Asia, which would've drawn in the US, so they decided they should try to strike first, and the rest was history.

I enjoyed reading your post.

Exactly a country will do what works for itself.

What works for one country may not work for another country.

 

[epebble]

@beijingwalker
@Beast


Perhaps you can enlighten us about Chinese Communism.

I do not have a problem with Socialism or Communism. Only the atheistic component of Communism I disagree with.

For us Pakistanis, religion is our ideology and the only thing that matters to us.

Regards,

@MultaniGuy

The essence of both October (Bolshevik) Revolution in Russia/USSR and the Cultural Revolution of PRC is the discarding of previous culture/civilization and being reborn as a new nation. So, keeping religion as center of society is a bit like Pakistani's liking to keep the British King as their Head of State. It is fundamentally incompatible.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

The essence of both October (Bolshevik) Revolution in Russia/USSR and the Cultural Revolution of PRC is the discarding of previous culture/civilization and being reborn as a new nation. So, keeping religion as center of society is a bit like Pakistani's liking to keep the British King as their Head of State. It is fundamentally incompatible.

You don't know what you are talking about. Cultural Revolution (1964) was not part of the socialist revolution (1949). Meanwhile Cuban socialists came to power and Cuba is extremely Catholic.

Cultural Revolution discarded only the backward parts of Chinese culture like slavish obedience to authority, blind following of ritual, etc. It was actually a movement against classical authoritarianism (the belief that authorities should wield power by default).

Common Cultural Revolution slogan was: 革命无罪，造反有理. No crime in revolution, rebellion is rational.

Even 批林批孔 (Criticize Lin Biao, Criticize Confucius) is only partially anti-tradition, as it was mostly about criticizing the traitor general Lin Biao. Confucius wasn't the only ancient Chinese philosopher, notice how nobody criticized Han Feizi or legalism which are equally old?

 

[epebble]

You don't know what you are talking about. Cultural Revolution (1964) was not part of the socialist revolution (1949). Meanwhile Cuban socialists came to power and Cuba is extremely Catholic.

Cultural Revolution discarded only the backward parts of Chinese culture like slavish obedience to authority, blind following of ritual, etc. It was actually a movement against classical authoritarianism (the belief that authorities should wield power by default).

Common Cultural Revolution slogan was: 革命无罪，造反有理. No crime in revolution, rebellion is rational.

Even 批林批孔 (Criticize Lin Biao, Criticize Confucius) is only partially anti-tradition, as it was mostly about criticizing the traitor general Lin Biao. Confucius wasn't the only ancient Chinese philosopher, notice how nobody criticized Han Feizi or legalism which are equally old?

Destruction of religious places is rather well known It took me 30 seconds to find out:

Crackdown on China’s Folk Religions: 6,000 Temples Destroyed

Active for generations, places of worship for indigenous religions are being demolished throughout the country, authorities claiming that they are illegal.

bitterwinter.org

More folk religion temples destroyed in China - Asia, News, Paganism, Witchcraft

Witchcraft & Pagan News - China continues to impact religious minorities by enacting increasingly restrictive laws governing religious practices. | Asia, News, Paganism, Witchcraft

wildhunt.org

China's Destruction of Cultural Sites During the Cultural Revolution

In China, during the Cultural Revolution, much damage was done to both the Chinese people and China's traditional

www.nspirement.com

China Is Erasing Mosques and Precious Shrines in Xinjiang (Published 2020)

Thousands of religious sites in Xinjiang have been destroyed, a new analysis suggests, part of China’s drive to erode the region’s heritage.

www.nytimes.com

China destroys 3,000-seat church, detains pastors

The People s Republic of China destroyed a church that reportedly could seat 3,000 people and detained its pastors, according to a human rights organization

www.christianpost.com

I see no problem if destruction of religion is necessary for Chinese progress. But there is no need to deny that.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Destruction of religious places is rather well known It took me 30 seconds to find out:

Crackdown on China’s Folk Religions: 6,000 Temples Destroyed

Active for generations, places of worship for indigenous religions are being demolished throughout the country, authorities claiming that they are illegal.

bitterwinter.org

More folk religion temples destroyed in China - Asia, News, Paganism, Witchcraft

Witchcraft & Pagan News - China continues to impact religious minorities by enacting increasingly restrictive laws governing religious practices. | Asia, News, Paganism, Witchcraft

wildhunt.org

China's Destruction of Cultural Sites During the Cultural Revolution

In China, during the Cultural Revolution, much damage was done to both the Chinese people and China's traditional

www.nspirement.com

China Is Erasing Mosques and Precious Shrines in Xinjiang (Published 2020)

Thousands of religious sites in Xinjiang have been destroyed, a new analysis suggests, part of China’s drive to erode the region’s heritage.

www.nytimes.com

China destroys 3,000-seat church, detains pastors

The People s Republic of China destroyed a church that reportedly could seat 3,000 people and detained its pastors, according to a human rights organization

www.christianpost.com

I see no problem if destruction of religion is necessary for Chinese progress. But there is no need to deny that.

There's no demolition of churches in the US?

A eulogy for St. Laurentius Church in Fishtown

St. Laurentius is slowly coming down spire by spire, and Fishtown residents and former parishioners are beginning their mourning process.

www.inquirer.com

I never said there were zero restrictions on religion, nor was that your original claim. May I remind you of your original quote?

The essence of both October (Bolshevik) Revolution in Russia/USSR and the Cultural Revolution of PRC is the discarding of previous culture/civilization and being reborn as a new nation.

Cultural Revolution was not the original socialist revolution. By comparing it to the October Revolution in Russia (which would've been analogous to the original 1949 socialist revolution), you proved you don't know what you are talking about. Second, you claim it was discarding of the previous culture/civilization, and I've shown that it is not the case. You only mention religion later in passing, in a Pakistani context, not a Chinese one.

Chinese accepted restrictions on religion because society was not religious, so it wasn't a big deal. But the government never even attempted to push things like LGBT wokism because it would've never worked.

 

[Brainsucker]

I agree, China doesn't really have to stick to communism, it's all about legitimacy, the current leaders inherited the leadership from their predecessors and this communist mantle needs to be kept.

Actually, if you read about Mohism, the current China is actually more Mohism than Communism. Well, but that's what I read from Wikipedia. I don't have more detailed Mohism source of information.

Mozi is known for his insistence that all people are equally deserving of receiving material benefit and being protected from physical harm. In Mohism, morality is defined not by tradition and ritual, but rather by a constant moral guide that parallels utilitarianism.

So what is the difference between this Mozi and Karl Marx?

So I believe that People Republic of China is actually not a communist country, they are a Neo Mohism Country. Because the more I read about Mohism, the more I think that there are way more similarity about Mohism to today China than Communism to today China.

What do you think about it?

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Actually, if you read about Mohism, the current China is actually more Mohism than Communism. Well, but that's what I read from Wikipedia. I don't have more detailed Mohism source of information.

Mozi is known for his insistence that all people are equally deserving of receiving material benefit and being protected from physical harm. In Mohism, morality is defined not by tradition and ritual, but rather by a constant moral guide that parallels utilitarianism.

So what is the difference between this Mozi and Karl Marx?

So I believe that People Republic of China is actually not a communist country, they are a Neo Mohism Country. Because the more I read about Mohism, the more I think that there are way more similarity about Mohism to today China than Communism to today China.

What do you think about it?

共产主义 is the Chinese term, and the implications of 共产 is much deeper than "commun-" of western "communism".

In fact, the connection between Mohism and socialism is a heavily researched topic in Chinese, and it is regarded to be a form of socialism as noted in the official party history.

http://dangshi.people.com.cn/n1/2018/0124/c85037-29783030.html

https://wap.cnki.net/touch/web/Dissertation/Article/10623-1018269012.nh.html

 

[Brainsucker]

共产主义 is the Chinese term, and the implications of 共产 is much deeper than "commun-" of western "communism".

In fact, the connection between Mohism and socialism is a heavily researched topic in Chinese, and it is regarded to be a form of proto-socialism.

https://wap.cnki.net/touch/web/Dissertation/Article/10623-1018269012.nh.html

Wow, this is interesting.