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Chinese and Russian 5th-gen fighters could outnumber the F-35

Lankan Ranger

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The U.S. military’s historic dominance of the skies, unchallenged since around spring 1943, is increasingly at risk because of the proliferation of advanced technologies and a buildup of potential adversary arsenals, according to Air Force Lt. Gen. David Deptula, the service’s chief for intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance. Speaking today at the Air Force’s annual convention in the Washington area today, he provided a wide ranging assessment of what the QDR team is calling “high-end, asymmetric threats.”


Emphasizing the increasing capabilities of “anti-access weapons,” such as long range precision missiles, Deptula said pilots in future wars will not operate in the “permissive” threat environments of current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Deptula, best known for crafting the Desert Storm air campaign, said potential opponents have learned from U.S. operations and will use precision arsenals to stop a buildup of U.S. airpower near their borders before a war even begins.


Without functioning ground bases, aircraft cannot operate; the Air Force is investing heavily in shorter ranged tactical aircraft, such as the F-22 and F-35, along with a host of older F-15 and F-16. Overseas bases from which these aircraft operate are now threatened by increasingly accurate ballistic missiles in Chinese, Russian, Iranian and North Korean arsenals, Deptula said. The newest models are road mobile and exceedingly difficult to locate.


Enemies will use cyber attacks to target U.S. command and control networks and satellite relays, the smooth functioning of which the military is now completely dependant. “Space is no longer a sanctuary and our satellites are at risk… for five decades the U.S. has led the world in space,” he said, now, “the space domain is perhaps the most likely arena for threats to achieve leveraged effects,” against U.S. operations. The Chinese are developing anti-satellite weapons, as are the Russians, and the number of countries that can launch sensor-loaded satellites into space is increasing.


Because of improvements in over the horizon and passive radars, U.S. aircraft will be detected long before they reach their targets. “The area that we operate in free from detection is rapidly shrinking,” Deptula said, “our adversaries are going to have capabilities that we’ve never operated against.” The newest generation surface-to-air missiles, such as the Russian SA-21, have ranges exceeding 300 miles and the ability to target low flying aircraft, and will likely be exported.


Speaking to the more traditional realm of air-to-air combat, so dear to his audience’s heart, Deptula contends that the U.S. technological edge there is eroding. While “fourth generation” fighters are no match for the most advanced U.S. fighters, Deptula reminded the audience of the Russian export success with the MIG-21, some 12,000 of which were built, and operated by over 50 countries.


Russia and China are both developing “fifth generation” fighters that will be widely exported at prices that will undercut the F-35 price tag. Both nations will thus acquire “near F-22 performance… while attempting to proliferate the [aircraft] to perhaps near F-35 like quantities,” he said. “We may be facing a fighter threat capability in quantities we’ve never experienced before.”


Its not just in the technology realm that America’s enemies are seeking advantage. Unable to counter the U.S. dominance in long-range strike, enemies in wars among the people use information operations to influence perceptions about civilian casualties and deny the U.S. ability to leverage its asymmetric advantages. Deptula said media savvy opponents who skillfully manipulate global public perception are an example of successful “Effects Based Operations,” a doctrinal term that has recently fallen into disfavor, except among air power advocates.

From:ASIAN DEFENCE: Chinese and Russian 5th-gen fighters could outnumber the F-35
 
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I highly doubt 5th generation fighters will be built in huge numbers like are quoted. and even if they are the U.S. will simply ramp production back up of the F-22 or an even newer aircraft. 5th generation fighters are very difficult and time consuming to make for any country. and Russia especially lacks the infrastructure to produce them in large numbers at present.
 
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The U.S. military’s historic dominance of the skies, unchallenged since around spring 1943, is increasingly at risk because of the proliferation of advanced technologies and a buildup of potential adversary arsenals, according to Air Force Lt. Gen. David Deptula, the service’s chief for intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance. Speaking today at the Air Force’s annual convention in the Washington area today, he provided a wide ranging assessment of what the QDR team is calling “high-end, asymmetric threats.”


Emphasizing the increasing capabilities of “anti-access weapons,” such as long range precision missiles, Deptula said pilots in future wars will not operate in the “permissive” threat environments of current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Deptula, best known for crafting the Desert Storm air campaign, said potential opponents have learned from U.S. operations and will use precision arsenals to stop a buildup of U.S. airpower near their borders before a war even begins.


Without functioning ground bases, aircraft cannot operate; the Air Force is investing heavily in shorter ranged tactical aircraft, such as the F-22 and F-35, along with a host of older F-15 and F-16. Overseas bases from which these aircraft operate are now threatened by increasingly accurate ballistic missiles in Chinese, Russian, Iranian and North Korean arsenals, Deptula said. The newest models are road mobile and exceedingly difficult to locate.


Enemies will use cyber attacks to target U.S. command and control networks and satellite relays, the smooth functioning of which the military is now completely dependant. “Space is no longer a sanctuary and our satellites are at risk… for five decades the U.S. has led the world in space,” he said, now, “the space domain is perhaps the most likely arena for threats to achieve leveraged effects,” against U.S. operations. The Chinese are developing anti-satellite weapons, as are the Russians, and the number of countries that can launch sensor-loaded satellites into space is increasing.


Because of improvements in over the horizon and passive radars, U.S. aircraft will be detected long before they reach their targets. “The area that we operate in free from detection is rapidly shrinking,” Deptula said, “our adversaries are going to have capabilities that we’ve never operated against.” The newest generation surface-to-air missiles, such as the Russian SA-21, have ranges exceeding 300 miles and the ability to target low flying aircraft, and will likely be exported.


Speaking to the more traditional realm of air-to-air combat, so dear to his audience’s heart, Deptula contends that the U.S. technological edge there is eroding. While “fourth generation” fighters are no match for the most advanced U.S. fighters, Deptula reminded the audience of the Russian export success with the MIG-21, some 12,000 of which were built, and operated by over 50 countries.


Russia and China are both developing “fifth generation” fighters that will be widely exported at prices that will undercut the F-35 price tag. Both nations will thus acquire “near F-22 performance… while attempting to proliferate the [aircraft] to perhaps near F-35 like quantities,” he said. “We may be facing a fighter threat capability in quantities we’ve never experienced before.”


Its not just in the technology realm that America’s enemies are seeking advantage. Unable to counter the U.S. dominance in long-range strike, enemies in wars among the people use information operations to influence perceptions about civilian casualties and deny the U.S. ability to leverage its asymmetric advantages. Deptula said media savvy opponents who skillfully manipulate global public perception are an example of successful “Effects Based Operations,” a doctrinal term that has recently fallen into disfavor, except among air power advocates.

From:ASIAN DEFENCE: Chinese and Russian 5th-gen fighters could outnumber the F-35

Sir you are just a bit carried away when you said chinese 5th generation jet fighter will be better then F-35 and Sir please let us know what engine and avionics J-xx will use? Pak-fa the real threat to F-35 then J-xx sir. China far behind the russians. Let alone West sir.
 
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I highly doubt 5th generation fighters will be built in huge numbers like are quoted. and even if they are the U.S. will simply ramp production back up of the F-22 or an even newer aircraft. 5th generation fighters are very difficult and time consuming to make for any country. and Russia especially lacks the infrastructure to produce them in large numbers at present.

Sir pak-fa will be build bit more in numbers then F-22 because pak-fa would be alot cheaper then F-22. While F-35 will be build in huge number because its a JV. Number of countries involved in. The cost of pak-fa would be cheaper then F-22 and F-35 sir.
 
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Sir pak-fa will be build bit more in numbers then F-22 because pak-fa would be alot cheaper then F-22. While F-35 will be build in huge number because its a JV. Number of countries involved in. The cost of pak-fa would be cheaper then F-22 and F-35 sir.

SIR; How do know how many pak-fa will be produce SIR ?

SIR, are you some kind of secret agent SIR ? Seems to me you knew

every so call future secret projects SIR. Regard SIR.:smitten:

:pakistan::china:
 
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SIR; How do know how many pak-fa will be produce SIR ?

SIR, are you some kind of secret agent SIR ? Seems to me you knew

every so call future secret projects SIR. Regard SIR.:smitten:

:pakistan::china:

Sir russia said it. Not me. They said they gonna have pak-fa in numbers after su-35. While india going to induct pak-fa in less number sir.
 
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Sir russia said it. Not me. They said they gonna have pak-fa in numbers after su-35. While india going to induct pak-fa in less number sir.

SIR; Can you kindly provide link SIR . Regard SIR. :smitten:

:pakistan::china:
 
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Sir pak-fa will be build bit more in numbers then F-22 because pak-fa would be alot cheaper then F-22. While F-35 will be build in huge number because its a JV. Number of countries involved in. The cost of pak-fa would be cheaper then F-22 and F-35 sir.

doesn't matter about the price in the end. If the numbers of F-22 comparable aircraft became to high. the U.S. would build more F-22's no matter the costs. one interesting note. up till 2007 development costs of the PAK-FA alone were estimated at 20 billion US dollars. with all the delays you can bet that has skyrocketed. for the last 3 years Russia has been promising a prototype being finished. the latest promise is the end of this year. we will see! it couldn't be a worse time for Russia who is extremely cash strapped with the low oil prices. If it wasn't for India's money there would not even be a PAK-FA project.

Only a few countries can actually afford 5th generation aircraft not just for the upfront costs but the upkeep costs as well. That is a big reason you will not see large numbers fielded. you can not build 5th generation on the cheap like past Russian designs. Though they will still be cheaper then U.S. planes becuase of labor costs. I doubt Russia pays it's assembly line people 75 dollars an hour.
 
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I don't understand how many people are there in this 5-generation fighter soup....Russia-India... Russia-china..India-india.... china-china..... china-pakistan....india-Israel.... India-US.... India-Europe....
 
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doesn't matter about the price in the end. If the numbers of F-22 comparable aircraft became to high. the U.S. would build more F-22's no matter the costs. one interesting note. up till 2007 development costs of the PAK-FA alone were estimated at 20 billion US dollars. with all the delays you can bet that has skyrocketed. for the last 3 years Russia has been promising a prototype being finished. the latest promise is the end of this year. we will see! it couldn't be a worse time for Russia who is extremely cash strapped with the low oil prices. If it wasn't for India's money there would not even be a PAK-FA project.

Only a few countries can actually afford 5th generation aircraft not just for the upfront costs but the upkeep costs as well. That is a big reason you will not see large numbers fielded. you can not build 5th generation on the cheap like past Russian designs. Though they will still be cheaper then U.S. planes becuase of labor costs. I doubt Russia pays it's assembly line people 75 dollars an hour.

:( But Thomas you just contradicted yourself.

If F-22 is expensive why would the US continue buliding more when its econmy is in trouble - it doesn't make sence !
 
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:( But Thomas you just contradicted yourself.

If F-22 is expensive why would the US continue buliding more when its econmy is in trouble - it doesn't make sence !


I have always said that the U.S. would build more F-22's. If Russia and China were to build the PAK-Fa in more significant numbers then the F-22 currently is. and the U.S economy even in these economic times is still in a class all by itself. It can afford to build and maintain more. It is Russia and China and India that would find it harder to field them in numbers around 2000+ aircraft. at least and keep most of them flying at all times.
 
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You still need $$$... US debts are increasing borrowing money from East Asia. US will be bankrupt....
 
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You still need $$$... US debts are increasing borrowing money from East Asia. US will be bankrupt....

I have heard the same argument for decades. batmanow has an interesting thread. That pretty much nails the realities of today. If you have not already I suggest you read it.

The U.S. defense budget is far larger each year then China, and Russia combined. it can find the money to produce more F-22's. and still not increase the defense budget.
 
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