China's Resentment Problem

[Aepsilons]

These trolls are deeply embedded in everything. Software, hardware, you name it.

NSA planted surveillance software on hard drives, report says - CNET

In the meantime, I will just say hello to any friends who may be reading this message through unconventional means!

lol, you have a very interesting way of conveying your message, my Han-some friend.

 

[TheTruth]

The Japanese invasion of China is a recent occurrence, when compared o the age of China as a nation state, one that has existed for over 5 millennia. If the Chinese people still remember the wanton destruction of the Mongols who came to rule China for some 90 years in the 13th century, then I believe that the Chinese will still remember the Japanese invasion of China for generations to come. What is the half life? Half a millennia , at least.

This is the reality. This will drive politics for years, decades, even centuries to come.

So, who is it that killed Japanese civilians en masse after surrender, who used nuclear weapons when you were all but defeated?

And who took in your women and children, fed and protected them, raised them like our own- and returned your soldiers unharmed and unmolested? Who waived reparations for a legendary betrayal?

Tell me which path the Westerners. full of "forgivingness," took and which path the vengeful Chinese took. You act like we are angry at Japan, no, very few people in China think the Japanese people should be punished or the nation of Japan destroyed. All we want is even the slightest hint that the people who rule your country understand what they did is wrong, so that they will be less likely to repeat their mistakes.

Your adoption of a tone of grievance is somewhat unbelievable. You are not the aggrieved party.

In case you are wondering, the Mongols have been considerably reduced. Furthermore, they don't engage in overt anti-Chinese politics in coordination with the world's worst imperialist.

 

[Aepsilons]

So, who is it that killed Japanese civilians en masse after surrender, who used nuclear weapons when you were all but defeated?

And who took in your women and children, fed and protected them, raised them like our own- and returned your soldiers unharmed and unmolested? Who waived reparations for a legendary betrayal?

Tell me which path the Westerners. full of "forgivingness," took and which path the vengeful Chinese took. You act like we are angry at Japan, no, very few people in China think the Japanese people should be punished or the nation of Japan destroyed. All we want is even the slightest hint that the people who rule your country understand what they did is wrong, so that they will be less likely to repeat their mistakes.

Your adoption of a tone of grievance is somewhat unbelievable. You are not the aggrieved party.

In case you are wondering, the Mongols have been considerably reduced. Furthermore, they don't engage in overt anti-Chinese politics in coordination with the world's worst imperialist.

Valid points , valid points.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Valid points , valid points.

Don't be so quick to agree with his statements...
CNN - Photos document brutality in Shanghai - Sept. 23, 1996

"The photos, taken by a Swiss photographer near Shanghai in 1937, all depict the brutality of Chinese soldiers toward Japanese prisoners and Shanghai residents accused of helping the Japanese as they began their military conquest of China.

The photos are so disturbing that Tom Simmen, who was in Shanghai on business and asked to witness the executions by the Chinese, kept them hidden away. But he told his son to make them public."


Tom Simmen - Google Search

 

[Aepsilons]

Don't be so quick to agree with his statements...
CNN - Photos document brutality in Shanghai - Sept. 23, 1996
Tom Simmen - Google Search

The brutality of love and war, i guess.

 

[Raphael]

@Nihonjin1051

You've identified symptoms of a real problem such as excessive 'resentment', but its seems you (or rather, the Japanese media you quoted) cannot identify the root problem. So allow me to give my thoughts. The root problem here is China's incomplete modernization and nation-building.

China is not a modern nation yet. Modernity starts with material developments: shiny trains, plane, and ships or even missiles, but is only complete upon a spiritual transformation in the mentality of the people. A great modern nation cannot be founded on a narrative of victimization, and yet, China's national myth is still one about victimization during WWII (and earlier). It is hobbled by what Nietzsche described as 'slave morality': the idea that suffering and humiliation is good and that it imbues the nation with a moral righteousness. These ideas continue to permeate Chinese historiography of the War of Resistance against Japan. In time, in order to reach modernity, these narratives must be inverted into something more positive: a narrative about resilience and a tenacious, life-affirming struggle for survival, when many other countries would have been broken beyond recognition by the barbaric ferocity of the Japanese invasion.

Anyway, there is no need to accelerate this modernization process beyond its natural pace. I understand Japanese frustration and anxiety, because you are confronting a nation that is materially but not mentally modern, and this dissonance breeds instability. That's why you've latched onto America's narrative about modernity, which defines it as a Western liberal democracy. You think this is a 'quick-fix' for China, but this is where you are at fault. Your liberal democracy was imposed on you by a conquering foreign power. It remains a sign of your submission, and a price for your WWII rampage. There is no need for China to pay such a price. We are a Confucian nation, and we insist that we retain our values, and not see them trampled over by rootless foreign values. I'm confident we will reach our own modernity, which will be completely independent of Western political-philosophical diktats, and still ensure harmony in Asia.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

They are simply scared.

They can't imagine a China with 1.3 billion people and a GDP per capita at the same level as my own city of Hong Kong. Just the idea makes them terrified.

That thought makes me scared and I consider myself China's friend

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

The photos, taken by a Swiss photographer near Shanghai in 1937, all depict the brutality of Chinese soldiers toward Japanese prisoners

This happened in the middle of war. Want to see what your good old boys did?

I never made any sweeping remark about the US being angels...YOU are the one who made that claim about the Chinese towards Japanese soldiers. I just had to set the record straight.

 

[TheTruth]

I never made any sweeping remark about the US being angels...YOU are the one who made that claim about the Chinese towards Japanese soldiers. I just had to set the record straight.

I said after the war, when the country wasn't thrown into total chaos by the Japanese. Meanwhile, you pinkies stole the land of Japanese Americans.

 

[21stCentury]

@Nihonjin1051

You've identified symptoms of a real problem such as excessive 'resentment', but its seems you (or rather, the Japanese media you quoted) cannot identify the root problem. So allow me to give my thoughts. The root problem here is China's incomplete modernization and nation-building.

China is not a modern nation yet. Modernity starts with material developments: shiny trains, plane, and ships or even missiles, but is only complete upon a spiritual transformation in the mentality of the people. A great modern nation cannot be founded on a narrative of victimization, and yet, China's national myth is still one about victimization during WWII (and earlier). It is hobbled by what Nietzsche described as 'slave morality': the idea that suffering and humiliation is good and that it imbues the nation with a moral righteousness. These ideas continue to permeate Chinese historiography of the War of Resistance against Japan. In time, in order to reach modernity, these narratives must be inverted into something more positive: a narrative about resilience and a tenacious, life-affirming struggle for survival, when many other countries would have been broken beyond recognition by the barbaric ferocity of the Japanese invasion.

Anyway, there is no need to accelerate this modernization process beyond its natural pace. I understand Japanese frustration and anxiety, because you are confronting a nation that is materially but not mentally modern, and this dissonance breeds instability. That's why you've latched onto America's narrative about modernity, which defines it as a Western liberal democracy. You think this is a 'quick-fix' for China, but this is where you are at fault. Your liberal democracy was imposed on you by a conquering foreign power. It remains a sign of your submission, and a price for your WWII rampage. There is no need for China to pay such a price. We are a Confucian nation, and we insist that we retain our values, and not see them trampled over by rootless foreign values. I'm confident we will reach our own modernity, which will be completely independent of Western political-philosophical diktats, and still ensure harmony in Asia.

Very well said.

 

[William Hung]

Forgiveness can be defined as the ‘forswearing of negative affect and judgment by viewing the wrongdoer with compassion and love, in the face of a wrongdoer’s considerable injustice”. Forgivingness is defined as “the disposition to abort one’s anger at persons one takes to have wronged one culpably, by seeing them in the benevolent terms provided by reasons characteristic of forgiving.

Thus forgiveness must be carefully distinguished from forgivingness. Forgivingness is an overall disposition to forgive, a disposition that manifests itself in most circumstances in life. Forgiveness , by contrast, only applies to particular circumstnaces (eg, a particular offense).

Paz, Neto and Mullet (2008) conducted a study that compared Chinese and Western European participants’ willingness to forgive and the researchers hypothesized that willingness to forgive would be more prevalent in Chinese (collectivistic) culture than in the Western European (individualistic) culture. However, this hypothesis, as the researchers noted, was not supported by the data. Between the two samples, the overall level of dispositional forgiveness was similar and, interestingly, acquiescence effects were present. Results showed that Chinese were substantially more unforgiving than the Western European samples.

The researchers also noted in their comparison of lasting resentment among Chinese and Western European participants and they hypothesized that lasting resentment would be lower among the Chinese participants than among the Western European participants. Paz et al (2008) then noted in data analysis that this hypothesis was yet again unsupported. Lasting resentment was higher among the Chinese than among the Western Europeans.

So, my friend @Yorozuya , I believe that the results of this study gives an understanding for us in the Chinese political dialectic , and your socio-cultural input also complements the data by Paz et al (2008). In fact, it enables us to appreciate the quantitative data even more.



Regards,
@Nihonjin1051




Reference:

Paz, R., Neto, F., & Mullet, E. (2008). Forgiveness: A China-Western Europe Comparison. Journal Of Psychology, 142(2), 147-158.

My Meta-analysis on China's Socio-Cultural Dialectics, Pertaining to National Tragedies, Historical and Political

The Chinese people , as a collectivist society, retain a much longer ideation of injustice, historical, political. The fact that the Chinese is a collectivistic society means that the people have, too, a collective memory, which enables retention of memories that may have happened over decades, centuries ago.

The Japanese invasion of China is a recent occurrence, when compared o the age of China as a nation state, one that has existed for over 5 millennia. If the Chinese people still remember the wanton destruction of the Mongols who came to rule China for some 90 years in the 13th century, then I believe that the Chinese will still remember the Japanese invasion of China for generations to come. What is the half life? Half a millennia , at least.

This is the reality. This will drive politics for years, decades, even centuries to come.

Wow thanks for sharing this scientific data, buddy! So my ancestor’s wisdom is corroborated with scientific data. @xesy.

Nihonjin1051, when I have more free time in a couple of days (I know I keep saying this lol), I will write a long post about this “resentment” charateristic and its socio-cultural and geopolitical implications.

 

[Aepsilons]

@Nihonjin1051

You've identified symptoms of a real problem such as excessive 'resentment', but its seems you (or rather, the Japanese media you quoted) cannot identify the root problem. So allow me to give my thoughts. The root problem here is China's incomplete modernization and nation-building.

China is not a modern nation yet. Modernity starts with material developments: shiny trains, plane, and ships or even missiles, but is only complete upon a spiritual transformation in the mentality of the people. A great modern nation cannot be founded on a narrative of victimization, and yet, China's national myth is still one about victimization during WWII (and earlier). It is hobbled by what Nietzsche described as 'slave morality': the idea that suffering and humiliation is good and that it imbues the nation with a moral righteousness. These ideas continue to permeate Chinese historiography of the War of Resistance against Japan. In time, in order to reach modernity, these narratives must be inverted into something more positive: a narrative about resilience and a tenacious, life-affirming struggle for survival, when many other countries would have been broken beyond recognition by the barbaric ferocity of the Japanese invasion.

Anyway, there is no need to accelerate this modernization process beyond its natural pace. I understand Japanese frustration and anxiety, because you are confronting a nation that is materially but not mentally modern, and this dissonance breeds instability. That's why you've latched onto America's narrative about modernity, which defines it as a Western liberal democracy. You think this is a 'quick-fix' for China, but this is where you are at fault. Your liberal democracy was imposed on you by a conquering foreign power. It remains a sign of your submission, and a price for your WWII rampage. There is no need for China to pay such a price. We are a Confucian nation, and we insist that we retain our values, and not see them trampled over by rootless foreign values. I'm confident we will reach our own modernity, which will be completely independent of Western political-philosophical diktats, and still ensure harmony in Asia.

@Raphael


Good points and I thank you for your introspective analysis of the Chinese morality. I appreciate your open analysis and I'll have to do more research on that 'slave morality' as you mentioned which was coined by Nietzsche. The Chinese national development is impressive , and I do not deny this , and give credit where its due, the Chinese people have much to be proud of considering how much their country has developed in just the past 3-4 decades. I think that we all , Japanese specially, an agree to this and appreciate these feats , our political differences shouldn't bar any rightful appraisal. That's my view.

Second point. Your reference to Japan's adoption of a liberal democracy , which you said was "imposed on you by a conquering foreign power." That is only partially correct. I would say that Japan was corrected by the Allied Powers to adopt a more peace-oriented , civil-oriented government. In fact, Japan's liberal democracy immediately after the 2nd World War was the re-acclimation of Liberal Democracy in Japan, which was actually the governmental style in the country from 1905 till 1929 prior to the rise of Militarism , Ultra-nationalism in Japan , which was a consequence of the Great Depression in Japan. Japan has always been , since the restoration of the Emperor Meiji, a Liberal Democracy, centered and fixed into the supremacy of the constitution, and the submission of the military to the Emperor's Government. The Rise of Militarism in Japanese Government, which happened in the early 1930s and was a direct consequence due to the Great Depression was a rather fluke event, and the lack in checks to militarist role in politics. The unfortuitous events in Asia , a consequence of Japan's Imperialistic Adventurism, would prove to be a learning experience for us, among other things.


Regards,

Wow thanks for sharing this scientific data, buddy! So my ancestor’s wisdom is corroborated with scientific data. @xesy.

Nihonjin1051, when I have more free time in a couple of days (I know I keep saying this lol), I will write a long post about this “resentment” charateristic and its socio-cultural and geopolitical implications.

I look forward to reading your post, buddy.

 

[TheTruth]

Vietnamese talking about resentment when they were so angry about being punished in 1400 that they allowed the French to colonize them in 1800s.

 

[William Hung]

@Raphael


Good points and I thank you for your introspective analysis of the Chinese morality. I appreciate your open analysis and I'll have to do more research on that 'slave morality' as you mentioned which was coined by Nietzsche. The Chinese national development is impressive , and I do not deny this , and give credit where its due, the Chinese people have much to be proud of considering how much their country has developed in just the past 3-4 decades. I think that we all , Japanese specially, an agree to this and appreciate these feats , our political differences shouldn't bar any rightful appraisal. That's my view.

Second point. Your reference to Japan's adoption of a liberal democracy , which you said was "imposed on you by a conquering foreign power." That is only partially correct. I would say that Japan was corrected by the Allied Powers to adopt a more peace-oriented , civil-oriented government. In fact, Japan's liberal democracy immediately after the 2nd World War was the re-acclimation of Liberal Democracy in Japan, which was actually the governmental style in the country from 1905 till 1929 prior to the rise of Militarism , Ultra-nationalism in Japan , which was a consequence of the Great Depression in Japan. Japan has always been , since the restoration of the Emperor Meiji, a Liberal Democracy, centered and fixed into the supremacy of the constitution, and the submission of the military to the Emperor's Government. The Rise of Militarism in Japanese Government, which happened in the early 1930s and was a direct consequence due to the Great Depression was a rather fluke event, and the lack in checks to militarist role in politics. The unfortuitous events in Asia , a consequence of Japan's Imperialistic Adventurism, would prove to be a learning experience for us, among other things.


Regards,




I look forward to reading your post, buddy.

Most Chinese have a different concept of “justice” from other people, and it is embedded in their culture and social ethos. Discussing the idea of resentment, forgiveness, etc. with Chinese friends would just end up talking pass each other because we have different philosophical understanding of more fundamental concept such as justice, harmony, etc. It has nothing to do with modernity, adoption of liberal democracy, etc. as our friend is trying to present it to be.

I will try to write on this later.

Vietnamese talking about resentment when they were so angry about being punished in 1400 that they allowed the French to colonize them in 1800s.

My friend, we are trying to have an intellectual discourse here. Please write your childish rant elsewhere, your typical PDF chinese flamebait won’t work on me.

 

[Aepsilons]

Most Chinese have a different concept of “justice” to other people, and it is embedded in their culture and social ethos. Discussing the idea of resentment, forgiveness, etc. with Chinese friends would just end up talking pass each other because we have different philosophical understanding of more fundamental concept such as justice, harmony, etc. It has nothing to do with modernity, adoption of liberal democracy, etc. as our friend is trying to present it to be.

There was one leader in modern Chinese History that stands out from all the rest, tho, however. I revere him, personally, and he is also revered highly in Japan. Dr. Sun Yat Sen.

How I wish Japan had our own version of him. What a leader he would have been for Japan....