China Wants 100,000 Marines To Defend Its Expanding Global Interests

[帅的一匹]

How should I feel shameful?

I listed operational parameter. You can list whatever you want, but if the "Supposedly" Marine are only uses as land troop, then it does nothing, you can label it anyway you want, you can call it Super MAX forces or whatever, but operationally, it does not affect any Amphibious Capability. You will need ship to carry the Marine onshore, and the ship PLAN is currently lacking, and the PLAN would probably have difficult to field such ship given the oeprational requirment for Bases and Dock to support those ship.

Making a Nation great and what I have said is two seperate things, I stated the fact, and if you want to dispute that fact, yes, I can go have a round or two with you, blindly following some ideology is not good for your allegience, no matter where you are from. In fact, by doing so, you are doing China a dis-service.

more marine means more LHD and LPD. Simply as it, can't you get it ?

Those guys from PLA army will be re-trained of what they got to have being a marine. This is not play house, this is for serious. I won't surprise if they raise 300 thousands marine in the future. China is country of 1.3 billion people, you can't calculate per Audtralia size. What can't be done by Australia can be done by PRC.

 

[jhungary]

more marine means more LHD and LPD. Simply as it, can't you get it ?

Yeah, first, you need appoximate 30 LHD/LPD to have any significant number of Marine to be brought ashore, by signaficant, I meant less than 30,000. US operate 9 (America + Wasp class) LHA at 45000 tons+ 12 San Antonio Class LPD at 27,000 tons, 4 Harper Ferry Class LHD at 20,000 tons, 8 Whibey Island Class LSD at 17,000 tons plus assorted smaller ship less than 15000 tons for a total of 35,000 Sealift Capacity. China have 4 ship over 25,000 tons, that's it.

How long do you think China can commission the ship require to the same level to the US? 1 year? 2 years? China can't build a single 45,000 tons LHD for less than 3 years, building 9 of them would have take China at least 20 years to do it. Then you also need supporting ship. That is also based on Chinese coast can accomdate all these ships group to begin with, again, unlike the US, China have 1 single coastline with no permenant bases. So when they eventually run out of fuel and food, did you just leave them in the open oceans?

Just because China have a lot of people does not mean they have a lot of building force, building ship that size not just require manpower, but also land, you don't have enough ship yard to build all these, the coast won't allow you to even accomdate all these ship you think you can build to begin with. And then you also need to think of China also need to modernize their own fleet first.

Unless all these are made, expansion of Marine Force DO NOTHING beside changing the name

 

[帅的一匹]

Yeah, first, you need appoximate 30 LHD/LPD to have any significant number of Marine to be brought ashore, by signaficant, I meant less than 30,000. US operate 9 (America + Wasp class) LHA at 45000 tons+ 12 San Antonio Class LPD at 27,000 tons, 4 Harper Ferry Class LHD at 20,000 tons, 8 Whibey Island Class LSD at 17,000 tons plus assorted smaller ship less than 15000 tons for a total of 35,000 Sealift Capacity. China have 4 ship over 25,000 tons, that's it.

How long do you think China can commission the ship require to the same level to the US? 1 year? 2 years? China can't build a single 45,000 tons LHD for less than 3 years, building 9 of them would have take China at least 20 years to do it. Then you also need supporting ship. That is also based on Chinese coast can accomdate all these ships group to begin with, again, unlike the US, China have 1 single coastline with no permenant bases. So when they eventually run out of fuel and food, did you just leave them in the open oceans?

Just because China have a lot of people does not mean they have a lot of building force, building ship that size not just require manpower, but also land, you don't have enough ship yard to build all these, the coast won't allow you to even accomdate all these ship you think you can build to begin with. And then you also need to think of China also need to modernize their own fleet first.

Unless all these are made, expansion of Marine Force DO NOTHING beside changing the name

What about China is gonna build 6 carriers in the future? And dozens of dozens of DDG we gonna have in future?! How many crews we need?! I tell you 100 thousand is just the beginning. In stead of induction rookie from the society, I think convert a army man to a sailor/ marine is more convenient?

Your mind is sturbonly as a rock. Try to think per Chinese logic, cause you still have Chinese blood in your vein. Period.

 

[jhungary]

What about China is gonna build 6 carriers in the future? And dozens of dozens of DDG we gonna have in future?! How many crews we need?! I tell you 100 thousand is just the beginning. In stead of induction rookie from the society, I think convert a army man to a sailor/ marine is more convenient?

Your mind is sturbonly as a rock. Try to think per Chinese logic, cause you still have Chinese blood in your vein. Period.

How long it takes for China to build 6 Carriers? Which is even bigger than the Amphibious Assault ship we are talking about. You do realise you need time to build these ship, right?

Also, Carrier have no well deck (You cannot put well deck on a carrier otherwise you cannot launch Aircraft) Building 6 Aircraft Carrier does not impact (maybe you can take 500 marine each with aviation detachment?) Chinese Amphibous capability. You may as well uses cargoship from Cosco Pacific.

You are not thinking stright, it never about Chinese blood or whatever, it always with reasoning, and what you said is basically, impossible and illogical for the next 20 years or more.

 

[Beast]

What about China is gonna build 6 carriers in the future? And dozens of dozens of DDG we gonna have in future?! How many crews we need?! I tell you 100 thousand is just the beginning. In stead of induction rookie from the society, I think convert a army man to a sailor/ marine is more convenient?

Your mind is sturbonly as a rock. Try to think per Chinese logic, cause you still have Chinese blood in your vein. Period.

This jhungary is just trying every means to badmouth China. He is trying to confuse readers with plenty of words and his chosen words. His assessment of civilian ship not able to support military amphibious operation is simply a joke. All countries deploy dual use military asset ships that included USN. What is different between a civilian Submersible ship and a military Submersible? Propabably only different in communication set. There is no different. There is a reason why it called dual uses.

 

[jhungary]

This jhungary is just trying every means to badmouth China. He is trying to confuse readers with plenty of words and his chosen words. His assessment of civilian ship not able to support military amphibious operation is simply a joke. All countries deploy dual use military asset ships that included USN. What is different between a civilian Submersible ship and a military Submersible? Propabably only different in communication set. There is no different. There is a reason why it called dual uses.

Oh, so from your unlimited knowledge of battlefield experience, you can concluded that Civilian ship are suitable for Amphibious Assault Operation? So, can you tell me the answer of the following question?

• How you deal with non-conform disembartation from a Civilian Ship?
• How do you suppose Indentifying Friends or Foes works?
• How are you suppose to lower your troop into water and perform a Amphibious Assault on a civilian craft??
• How do you tackle Non-Equipped Harbor?
• How do you deploy your troop on shore without equipment on both ships and shore?
• How do you launch LCAC, LST, AAV from a civilian ship?

Country like USN uses Civilian ship (USNS Ship) to support an Amphibious Assault effort ship such as T-AH class ship to provide logistic support, medicial support AFTER your amphibious assault force capture the harbor. Civilian Ship are NOT to be used to carry out Amphibious Assault strike. The only one time Civilian Sea Transport were used for any kind of amphibious operation is Operation Dynamo, when the British Royal Navy uses small ship to plug troop OUT OF Dunkirk. Which is EXACTLY opposite as to conduct an Amphibious Assault.

 

[Beast]

Oh, so from your unlimited knowledge of battlefield experience, you can concluded that Civilian ship are suitable for Amphibious Assault Operation? So, can you tell me the answer of the following question?

• How you deal with non-conform disembartation from a Civilian Ship?
• How do you suppose Indentifying Friends or Foes works?
• How are you suppose to lower your troop into water and perform a Amphibious Assault on a civilian craft??
• How do you tackle Non-Equipped Harbor?
• How do you deploy your troop on shore without equipment on both ships and shore?
• How do you launch LCAC, LST, AAV from a civilian ship?

Country like USN uses Civilian ship (USNS Ship) to support an Amphibious Assault effort ship such as T-AH class ship to provide logistic support, medicial support AFTER your amphibious assault force capture the harbor. Civilian Ship are NOT to be used to carry out Amphibious Assault strike. The only one time Civilian Sea Transport were used for any kind of amphibious operation is Operation Dynamo, when the British Royal Navy uses small ship to plug troop OUT OF Dunkirk. Which is EXACTLY opposite as to conduct an Amphibious Assault.

Once again. You are talking nonsense. I am not talking about dual use submersible ship working alone. The task of ID friend and foe is left with destroyer or other warship in escort.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USNS_Montford_Point_(T-ESD-1). Semi submersible ship task is to transport LCAC or giant Zubr plus armour and support vehicles. They do not do breaching assault. Breaching assault is WWII dinosaur doctrine. Hello smart alec, we are talking about 21th century. Do you really know how semi-submersible ship works when asking about how LCAC and Zubr are going to launch or position themselves on it?

Let me teach you. They ballast the ship hull and water reaches the loading deck and off LCAC or Zubr goes. How many ridiculous and nonsense /irrelevant question you are going to make to confuse readers?

LCAC and Zubr can virtually landed in most beach in any condition, be it low tide or high tide. And Air cushion craft can be launched from giant ship and reaches shallow area by themselves so that main ship can stay deep water. Unlike Landing ship tank.

http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0316/c90000-9191393.html

http://china-pla.blogspot.sg/2015/07/update-on-chinese-navy-mlp-and-zubr.html

All this ship needs, is a datalink and secure communication with other PLAN warship and they will come in group. I have witness portable datalink and secure equipment set easily assemble and disassemble onboard ship for dual use civilian/military ship. Or you think PLAN is some Qing dynasty navy still sailing on sail and powered by coal that they lack such necessity equipments?

So tell me, what nonsense are you going to spew next?

 

[BetterPakistan]

It is a great step. As Pakistan has promised 15,000 troops which includes 9000 army personnel and 6000 paramilitary forces, the same amount of marines from Chinese side will be a very good step. Gwadar Port is crucial for both Pakistan and China and they both realizes it and this is why both countries will protect it together in future.

 

[TOPGUN]

Finally, this was bond to happen great news !!

 

[jhungary]

Once again. You are talking nonsense. I am not talking about dual use submersible ship working alone. The task of ID friend and foe is left with destroyer or other warship in escort.

You do know when I mean IFF, I mean the civilian ship IFF via Allied Warship and most importantly Allied Warplane, I am not talking about how the civilian ship can IFF other, rather, how other ship and plane IFF that civilian ship.

How are you IFF a civilian ship when there are probably million of those.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USNS_Montford_Point_(T-ESD-1). Semi submersible ship task is to transport LCAC or giant Zubr plus armour and support vehicles. They do not do breaching assault. Breaching assault is WWII dinosaur doctrine. Hello smart alec, we are talking about 21th century. Do you really know how semi-submersible ship works when asking about how LCAC and Zubr are going to launch or position themselves on it?

I know how Semi-submersible work, but do you know how Amphibious Warfare works?

1.) You do not launch an Amphibious Assault with 3 LCAC (which you will get about 500 troops)
2.) You do not have the way to support these troop on shore and off shore using these ship.

Ship like USNS Montford, they are build for SUPPORTING the Amphibious Asssault, not launching an Amphibiious Assault. You quote the first part of that passage, but I wonder why you did not quote the whole thing? Which detail what ship like USNS Montford is for?

vehicle staging with a sideport ramp and large mooring fenders. A decision was made to eliminate helicopter capability and ship-to-ship transfer of heavy equipment.[1] An auxiliary support ship, Montford Point's role would be a seagoing pier for friendly forces in case accessibility to onshore bases are denied. Such flexibility would be useful following natural disasters and for supporting US Marines once they are ashore.[1][7] The ESD supports a vehicle staging area, side port ramp, large mooring fenders, and up to three landing craft air cushioned vessel lanes.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USNS_Montford_Point_(T-ESD-1)

Just because it was used as a dock, does not mean they are to be used for an amphibious assault. These ship are used for supporting a Amphibious Assault, not directing an assault.

Didn't I have already said USNS ship are used for SUPPORTING ROLE, not an assaulting role for Amphibious Assault?

Let me teach you. They ballast the ship hull and water reaches the loading deck and off LCAC or Zubr goes. How many ridiculous and nonsense /irrelevant question you are going to make to confuse readers?

LCAC and Zubr can virtually landed in most beach in any condition, be it low tide or high tide. And Air cushion craft can be launched from giant ship and reaches shallow area by themselves so that main ship can stay deep water. Unlike Landing ship tank.

http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0316/c90000-9191393.html

http://china-pla.blogspot.sg/2015/07/update-on-chinese-navy-mlp-and-zubr.html

How are you going to have a ballast on a civilian ship? The cloest any civilian ship to the LST role is a car ferry, but they CANNOT open their ballast mid way on their journey, or otherwise, what will ship do when they are filled with water? They SINK.

Let me educate you in this aspect. Case in point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Herald_of_Free_Enterprise

MS Herald of Free Enterprise have a lower vehicle deck you can open to put cars in. The ship sank in 1984 because they have their ballast bow door open during the journey.

A ship near a coast (where Amphibious Operation ususally conduct from) would have low seabed, meaning, a ship will push the water into a narrower seaway and thus lower the waterline of a ship because the clearence of the ship and the seabed disminished.

Why a LHD or LHA have to have a well deck to carry out seaborne operation? THat's because a well deck can partially submerge below the waterline, and they can raise or lower the ship much like a spillway locks to adjust the waterline by trapping and releasing flood water.

Now, tell me, which civilian ship you have in China can do that? If not, then yes, of course you can launch your Zubr (which you have 4 at this moment by the way) but that ship will simply sink because the moment they open their bow door in the middle of an ocean, the water then starteed flooding in, they will sink to the bottom of the ocean.

more importantly, you do know to launch a LST from a mothership, YOU HAVE TO FLOOD YOUR SHIP DECK SO THEY CAN BE LAUNCHED AT WATERLINE, RIGHT?

All this ship needs, is a datalink and secure communication with other PLAN warship and they will come in group. I have witness portable datalink and secure equipment set easily assemble and disassemble onboard ship for dual use civilian/military ship. Or you think PLAN is some Qing dynasty navy still sailing on sail and powered by coal that they lack such necessity equipments?

So tell me, what nonsense are you going to spew next?

You do know even Warship build for war may not be suitable to carry out amphibious assault. That is the reason why you need a special class of ship.

LOL. If only it's that easy for you to say "It's only ever need secure communication" Bullshit. Do you know what is the requirment of a ship in order to carry out amphibious operation?

A ship need to be nearing the coast, which mean the sealevel is low, a ship have to have low clearence to be closer to shore. Heavy Destroyer like AB Class is too big to have the clearence to simply support the onshore operation. You also need a well deck so you can open your bow door and launch your LCAC and it won't be sinking into the bottom of the ocean.

Of course you can use any ship to do a ad-hoc amphibious assault, if you don't want to use those ship again, because they will all be either sunk or beached if they are not properly equipped. And that is just the ship parts, not the equipped shore part.

Saying what you said, it indicate you have zero knowledge on how ampibious warfare works.

 

[Beast]

You do know when I mean IFF, I mean the civilian ship IFF via Allied Warship and most importantly Allied Warplane, I am not talking about how the civilian ship can IFF other, rather, how other ship and plane IFF that civilian ship.

How are you IFF a civilian ship when there are probably million of those.




I know how Semi-submersible work, but do you know how Amphibious Warfare works?

1.) You do not launch an Amphibious Assault with 3 LCAC (which you will get about 500 troops)
2.) You do not have the way to support these troop on shore and off shore using these ship.

Ship like USNS Montford, they are build for SUPPORTING the Amphibious Asssault, not launching an Amphibiious Assault. You quote the first part of that passage, but I wonder why you did not quote the whole thing? Which detail what ship like USNS Montford is for?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USNS_Montford_Point_(T-ESD-1)

Just because it was used as a dock, does not mean they are to be used for an amphibious assault. These ship are used for supporting a Amphibious Assault, not directing an assault.

Didn't I have already said USNS ship are used for SUPPORTING ROLE, not an assaulting role for Amphibious Assault?



How are you going to have a ballast on a civilian ship? The cloest any civilian ship to the LST role is a car ferry, but they CANNOT open their ballast mid way on their journey, or otherwise, what will ship do when they are filled with water? They SINK.

Let me educate you in this aspect. Case in point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Herald_of_Free_Enterprise

MS Herald of Free Enterprise have a lower vehicle deck you can open to put cars in. The ship sank in 1984 because they have their ballast bow door open during the journey.

A ship near a coast (where Amphibious Operation ususally conduct from) would have low seabed, meaning, a ship will push the water into a narrower seaway and thus lower the waterline of a ship because the clearence of the ship and the seabed disminished.

Why a LHD or LHA have to have a well deck to carry out seaborne operation? THat's because a well deck can partially submerge below the waterline, and they can raise or lower the ship much like a spillway locks to adjust the waterline by trapping and releasing flood water.

Now, tell me, which civilian ship you have in China can do that? If not, then yes, of course you can launch your Zubr (which you have 4 at this moment by the way) but that ship will simply sink because the moment they open their bow door in the middle of an ocean, the water then starteed flooding in, they will sink to the bottom of the ocean.

more importantly, you do know to launch a LST from a mothership, YOU HAVE TO FLOOD YOUR SHIP DECK SO THEY CAN BE LAUNCHED AT WATERLINE, RIGHT?



You do know even Warship build for war may not be suitable to carry out amphibious assault. That is the reason why you need a special class of ship.

LOL. If only it's that easy for you to say "It's only ever need secure communication" Bullshit. Do you know what is the requirment of a ship in order to carry out amphibious operation?

A ship need to be nearing the coast, which mean the sealevel is low, a ship have to have low clearence to be closer to shore. Heavy Destroyer like AB Class is too big to have the clearence to simply support the onshore operation. You also need a well deck so you can open your bow door and launch your LCAC and it won't be sinking into the bottom of the ocean.

Of course you can use any ship to do a ad-hoc amphibious assault, if you don't want to use those ship again, because they will all be either sunk or beached if they are not properly equipped. And that is just the ship parts, not the equipped shore part.

Saying what you said, it indicate you have zero knowledge on how ampibious warfare works.

Seriously, what's wrong with you? Nobody say ballast in the middle of an ocean? I don't know why you are asking some irrelevant question? They ballast only when near the staging area.

IFF task is left for escort warship, armed and fast warship screen and protect carriers or amphibious ships, not carrier or amphibious ship protect destroyer or frigate of other way round? Sounds like you don't even have the basic of navy formation?

When did I say semi- Submersible ship assault with 500 troops? Please quote any of my post in this thread to support your claim? Semi-Submersible ship with Zubr and LCAC are mainly to support armour amphibious operation. Freeing up 071 LDP to support few light armour division and troops assault.

 

[Brainsucker]

Seriously, what's wrong with you? Nobody say ballast in the middle of an ocean? I don't know why you are asking some irrelevant question? They ballast only when near the staging area.

IFF task is left for escort warship, armed and fast warship screen and protect carriers or amphibious ships, not carrier or amphibious ship protect destroyer or frigate of other way round? Sounds like you don't even have the basic of navy formation?

When did I say semi- Submersible ship assault with 500 troops? Please quote any of my post in this thread to support your claim? Semi-Submersible ship with Zubr and LCAC are mainly to support armour amphibious operation. Freeing up 071 LDP to support few light armour division and troops assault.

Do you have an obligation to answer that? If not, just ignore him. This expansion of Chinese Marine is only the result of reorganization within PLA and PLAN body. The capability of the force can be upgraded later. JHungary said that China has only 4 LPD right now. Well, he's right. But he forget, that China can always make more ships in the future. Those soldiers can always be trained later, the weapon can be upgraded when new technology available, and new doctrine can be invented when they have more experience. But 100.000 marines is a serious army that you can't ignore. When they're ready, they will be a very very frightening military force. As they have enough men power to invade other countries with their available men alone.

 

[jhungary]

Seriously, what's wrong with you? Nobody say ballast in the middle of an ocean? I don't know why you are asking some irrelevant question? They ballast only when near the staging area.

Dude, the "Staging Area" is off shore for amphibious transpot, ie "Middle of the Ocean".

You cannot ballast a ship if you are not equipped with a well deck in the middle of the ocean.

Or where you suppose these "Expeditionary Transport Dock" is going to be mooring at?

IFF task is left for escort warship, armed and fast warship screen and protect carriers or amphibious ships, not carrier or amphibious ship protect destroyer or frigate of other way round? Sounds like you don't even have the basic of navy formation?

But you are talking about using Civilian in a mix of Military ship within a formation. It's still okay for ship, but what about allied air support? You probably not going to launch an amphibious assault without air support, so from where these aircraft of yours will know these civilian ship you are operating with is friends? In any given amphibous assault, there are hundred of ships in a given area. Most civilian ship does not give out IFF signal and only depend on boardcast of their location to identify their position, so, how are you going to distingiush them from friends and foes?

I know about ships formation, but you obiviously don't know about command and control

When did I say semi- Submersible ship assault with 500 troops? Please quote any of my post in this thread to support your claim? Semi-Submersible ship with Zubr and LCAC are mainly to support armour amphibious operation. Freeing up 071 LDP to support few light armour division and troops assault.

Submersible can carry 3 LCAC, and each LCAC (Zubr have a capacity of 150 tons) which can carry at most 200 fully equipped troops with their equipment. How many and what exactly do you think a single 071 can carry so they can be used to support a Light Armoured Division??

071 only weighted around 25,000 tons, even America class LHA can only carry a tank battalion (15 tanks) and an American class weighted 47,500 tons. 4 America Class MAY be able to carry a whole tank division. Certainly not 071.

also, that come down to a question, how your troop get into the submersible in the first place. Your troop goes with the submersible? or You transporting these troop to off shore submersible for staging an attacks? Either way, it will not give you much troop strength to begin with. And again. Most importantly, THESE SUBMERSIBLE DOES NOT USE AS ASSAULT ELEMENT.

There submersible is act as a staging point to service your ship and provide a logistic base for your opeartion, they cannot use to launch Assault from. You don't know what these semi-submarsible can and cannot do...

 

[samsara]

More than that- concentration of all those ships on a single coastline would mean a big Juicy target- I doubt many Chinese posters understand such things- But unless they break the 1st and 2nd island chain any Naval expansion is waste of resources- The ships would be targeted on the main land harbor even before they set sail-

Provided you're right, then my question, which country that you think dares to target on the China's main land harbor?

Do you really understand the real equations among the major powers with massive nuke arms: USA - RUS - CHN?

Such grasp may tell you why even the massive fleets of ELEVEN CSG operated by the USA do not scare away both Russia and China when things do touch the 'red line' interests of each country. We all know how many aircraft carrier fleet both Russia and China have at present.

This is the 21st century, not the pre-WW II age of Japanese Pearl Harbor story.

I'd posted an interview by Prof. Toshi Yoshihara elsewhere, an American expert and an affiliate member of the China Maritime Studies Institute at the Naval War College, where he taught strategy for ten years.

Read on those more well-thought and informed opinions instead of some brag tag here.

 

[schoolboy]

All countries deploy dual use military asset ships that included USN. What is different between a civilian Submersible ship and a military Submersible? Propabably only different in communication set.

No modern navy except as a last resort relies to any extent on 'dual-use ships' for warfighting, let alone spearheading amphibious assaults. You are welcome to list what civilian vessels the US Navy relies on.

The US navy has some dual-use shipyards which are configured to rapidly go into warship building mode if needed (and even that is not easy) but the only limited extent of civilian vessels used for naval operations is intelligence gathering when unobtrusiveness is needed and no armed engagement forseen (such as the USS Liberty).

None of the successful amphibious assaults in recent times - Normandy, Incheon, Falklands - have relied on civilian vessels even slightly. To talk about 'probably communication set' as a distinction is so simplistic that one could just as well suggest that a civilian cargo A320 with some ordnance placed in its cargo bay is a bomber.