China to upgrade radar of Pakistan’s JF-17 fighter aircraft

[randomradio]

From my understanding of this, the block 3 will be the first to go into production witg the radar, following which Block 1 and 2 will get upgraded with it.

Regarding nose cones, i think people here forget that many fighters in the past have had redesigned nose cones including mirage V (which spawned multiple noses including other variants of M5, Nammer, Nesher, Kfir and Cheetah), F-4 phantom, and the SEPECAT Jaguar. Some lile the Mirage 5 variants and the more bulbous noses of later F-4 variants may be needed for room or extra cooling but it can be done and tested for less cost than replacing everything with block 3s.

Regarding the radar itself, there is still speculation about its specs and there is still speculation that it may be a Chinese clone of the Elta ELM-2052 which is said to be a hell of a radar. China itself has beenaking AESA radars for J-10, J-11 and J-16 for a few years and as such should have a strong handle on making a good product at this point. Additionally, PAF had the option of going with Selex Vixen 1000E which is the progenitor of the Raven ES-05 of the gripen. The major difference between the two being at the Raven has an extra 10 degrees of scanning capability due to the rotator plate and the fact that Saab owns the control hardware of the radar. The fact they had access to this radar yet were comfortable sticking with the Chinese solution speaks to the capabilities of the radar. Now some can say that the chinese and Italians wouldnt provide the source codes of the radars or weapons to allow the other to integrate the two, but Selex likely already has the ability to integrate AMRAAM, Sidewinder, Maa-1a Piranah, harpoon jdams, MAR-1, Etc. and PAF could provide codes to locally made weapons like RAAD, Reks, H2/H4. Now its not as robust a profile as the chinese weapons but PAF could probably get others weapons on the market if the difference in the two radars was drastic. The fact that they didn't makes me feel like the two radars are close to on par with each other.

The Chinese received some tech from the EL/M 2035, not the 2052.

 

[Ultima Thule]

The Chinese received some tech from the EL/M 2035, not the 2052.

How do you know please provide prove of your claims Chinese articles said KLJ-7A is based on EL/M 2052 @randomradio

 

[Tank131]

As long as all jets in a particular squadron have the same systems, there should be no problem.

Hi,

No---it does not work like that----. Once the upgrade starts---all older aircraft in service need to be brought upto the same standards if they were to remain in service---or need to be phased out of service---.

Flying with an aesa radar---is a different ball game---you have to fly combat with different rules of engagement and disengagement---the utility and fucntion of the aesa and non aesa system is different---.

Let us say---in war time---one air force base with non aesa radar JF17's gets destroyed---all the aircraft are gone---the pilots survive and need to be transfered to active JF17 bases.

The problem now is---that all those active JF17 bases have JF17's flying with aesa radar---what are you gonna do---?

In addition to @MastanKhan's points, you also have logistical problems in serviceing 2 different radars for the same aircraft. Its doable but not cost effective Additionally, replacing the radar is a very cost effective solution to maximize the capability of your fighting force. For example, a block 3 will cost between $25-30million per unit. While it will have other advantages over older blocks much of the advantages rest in the radar and hmds. Replacing the radars with AESA will bring its capabilities close to F-16 block 60 and F/A-18 E/F from an electric standpoint. The cost of this will be roughly $1.5-2 million per aircraft (given Raytheon was paid $41million per AN/APG-79 in 2014 placing the unit coat at ~$2.73M and a chinese system will likely cost significantly less).

 

[MastanKhan]

In addition to @MastanKhan's points, you also have logistical problems in serviceing 2 different radars for the same aircraft. Its doable but not cost effective Additionally, replacing the radar is a very cost effective solution to maximize the capability of your fighting force. For example, a block 3 will cost between $25-30million per unit. While it will have other advantages over older blocks much of the advantages rest in the radar and hmds. Replacing the radars with AESA will bring its capabilities close to F-16 block 60 and F/A-18 E/F from an electric standpoint. The cost of this will be roughly $1.5-2 million per aircraft (given Raytheon was paid $41million per AN/APG-79 in 2014 placing the unit coat at ~$2.73M and a chinese system will likely cost significantly less).

Hi,

Thank you for the post---.

The FORCE MULTIPLIER factor of the AESA radar is tremendous over the regular conventional radar---.

So---even if the aesa is 2-3-4 times more expensive---it is worth all the money and more---.

yes .. but every country has its own unique environment, budgetary limitations and adversary capability to counter. Based on that, Thunder is rightly being pursued by Pakistan Air Force to provide it with the necessary capability for all eventualities.

Hi,

The aircraft is a given---now we are talking about the gadgets the aircraft would have---.

 

[Ultima Thule]

The Chinese received some tech from the EL/M 2035, not the 2052.

And there are no EL/M 2035 Elta system of radars but 2032, which using in J-10A radarsand in JF-17 blk-1,2 as a KLJ-7 an KLJ-7v2 we are talking about newly Chinese develop AESA which is on par with EL/M 2052, do research before you troll here @randomradio you're reported for your trolling @randomradio

 

[Tank131]

The Chinese received some tech from the EL/M 2035, not the 2052.

From 2008-2015 there was a scathing issue in US/Israeli rights as it was suspected that the Israelis, in violation of agreements with the US, were providing China with US Tech. One of those was the 2052 which according to Usman Ansari and Wendell Minnick, the Chinese appeared to have replicated and one Chinese firm (NAV technology) claimed listed a radar identical to the ELM-2052 in its catalog while not listing it by name. This firm was a PLA-accredited firm. Beyond this, IAI has over 15-20 years been accused on numerous occasions of leaking classified US Tech to China, and as punishment, during India's MMRCA trials SAAB was prevented by US objection, from offering the Elta EL/M 2052 with Gripen and IAI was prevented from selling it for Tejas.

That is not to say that 100% the KLJ-7A is the 2052...after all, the klj-7a is listed as having 1000 TRM whereas the 2052 is said to have 1142 modules. However if china only got tech from the 2052, I'd till take that, some tech is beeter than no tech and IAI elta makes some of the best radars out there.

As for Klj-7a being based on the 2035, there is no radar in Elta catalog by that name. The only reference i could find of it is a list of transfered tech reportedly given to china from the Lavi project and that was a pulse doppler radar based on 2032 but outside of old chinese references there was no such radar listed. There are however numerous articles linking 2052 to China recently.

 

[randomradio]

From 2008-2015 there was a scathing issue in US/Israeli rights as it was suspected that the Israelis, in violation of agreements with the US, were providing China with US Tech. One of those was the 2052 which according to Usman Ansari and Wendell Minnick, the Chinese appeared to have replicated and one Chinese firm (NAV technology) claimed listed a radar identical to the ELM-2052 in its catalog while not listing it by name. This firm was a PA-accredited firm. Beyond this, IAI has over 15-20 years been accused on numerous occasions of leaking classified US Tech to China, and as punishment, during India's MMRCA trials SAAB was prevented by US objection, from offering the Elta EL/M 2052 with Gripen and IAI was prevented from selling it for Tejas.

That is not to say that 100% the KLJ-7A is the 2052...after all, the klj-7a is listed as having 1000 TRM whereas the 2052 is said to have 1142 modules. However if as you state china only got tech from the 2052, I'd till take that, some tech is beeter than no tech and IAI elta makes some of the best radars out there.

I doubt there's any truth to that 2052-China connection. NAV only made a similar looking design as the 2052. The problem with the 2052 is the US has control over its export.

China managed to get some tech from the Israelis during the Lavi program. Some 2035 tech managed to make it to China through Lavi.

 

[Tank131]

I doubt there's any truth to that 2052-China connection. NAV only made a similar looking design as the 2052. The problem with the 2052 is the US has control over its export.

China managed to get some tech from the Israelis during the Lavi program. Some 2035 tech managed to make it to China through Lavi.

Sorry i edited my post, please re-read it and respond. As i stated, the only reference to 2035 i have ever seen was a 1980s pulse doppler radar.

 

[randomradio]

Sorry i edited my post, please re-read it and respond. As i stated, the only reference to 2035 i have ever seen was a 1980s pulse doppler radar.

Yes, I was referring to the old radar made for the Lavi program by the Israelis. That was the last time the Chinese had any real relations with the Israelis.

I don't think the KLJ-7A is a derivative of anything foreign. It is likely a Chinese original, whatever that means.

 

[Akasa]

And there are no EL/M 2035 Elta system of radars but 2032, which using in J-10A radarsand in JF-17 blk-1,2 as a KLJ-7 an KLJ-7v2 we are talking about newly Chinese develop AESA which is on par with EL/M 2052, do research before you troll here @randomradio you're reported for your trolling @randomradio

J-10A does not use 2032.

 

[Tank131]

Yes, I was referring to the old radar made for the Lavi program by the Israelis. That was the last time the Chinese had any real relations with the Israelis.

I don't think the KLJ-7A is a derivative of anything foreign. It is likely a Chinese original, whatever that means.

Again there is no elm 2035. The Israelis gave the chinese elm 2032 which was speculated to have given rise to the Type 1473 (not the same radar but a modern development of it). The notion the Osrael and China haven't dealt in tech since 1990s is false, and the complaints that the US levied against Israel are testament to that.

J-10A does not use 2032.

The J-10A uses the Type 1473 which, as i stated above, may be derived from ELM 2032.

 

[Akasa]

Again there is no elm 2035. The Israelis gave the chinese elm 2032 which was speculated to have given rise to the Type 1473 (not the same radar but a modern development of it). The notion the Osrael and China haven't dealt in tech since 1990s is false, and the complaints that the US levied against Israel are testament to that.



The J-10A uses the Type 1473 which, as i stated above, may be derived from ELM 2032.

1473 was supposedly derived from 2035 meant for the Lavi, I don't think 2032 was mentioned in any source. But again, this is only a rumor so you and I could both be wrong.

 

[randomradio]

Again there is no elm 2035. The Israelis gave the chinese elm 2032 which was speculated to have given rise to the Type 1473 (not the same radar but a modern development of it). The notion the Osrael and China haven't dealt in tech since 1990s is false, and the complaints that the US levied against Israel are testament to that.

The EL/M 2035 is just a larger version of the 2032.

You are correct about Israeli sales continuing, but it's very unlikely for them to get the 2052. The radar itself was ready only a few years ago.

 

[Tank131]

1473 was supposedly derived from 2035 meant for the Lavi, I don't think 2032 was mentioned in any source. But again, this is only a rumor so you and I could both be wrong.

There have been no official claims about anything called 2035, but there have been vague references to it on the internet aroumd Lavi and that it was a variant of 2032. Im not sure we will ever really know whether there was such a radar or not, but it doesnt matter, it was a variant of 2032 (whether they called it 2032 or 2035 doesn't matter). However the Israelis have funneled a lot of tech to china and a version of 2052 would not be out of the question, and there is enough circumstantial evidence to say some type of AESA tech made its way from Israel to China for it to be a real possibility.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Yeah
There is no Diamond nose thing needed as such. The diamond

Not everyone commenting on PDF has any engineering know how or even jf17 knowledge

yes I'm aware...that's why I asked so that some credible source(an insider perhaps?) can confirm it.

As for the radar selection between KLJ7A and some other Chinese company(I can't recall the name), that info supposedly came from some insider.