China threatens retaliation after US shot down spy balloon

[White and Green with M/S]

I don't think China needs to use a spy balloon, it's just over inflated sensational stuff for the media. Cold war point scoring.

Ok sir but remember Sir China have no other way to spy USA other than satellites Sir

 

[epebble]

Well, I don't know, and I don't like to guess. I mean, they can have 20+ solar panel and it didn't have anything to power, I mean for all I know, it could have been a trojan horse and those 20+ panel were aesthetic, and they are doing this for LOL (I mean if this is the case, then the balloon plus 20 panel is probably less than $5000). While that is not likely, it's a possibility.

The thing I can comment on is what I saw and what I know that were confirmed. Remember when I say it will take a 40 ft trailer to fix all the RC-135 equipment on? That thing is about 90 ft long, it literally could have anything in it, and the estimate power generation from what I see is enough to power a server blade, that's a lot of computational power, not even on our RC-135 have that.

I mean, at the end of the day, unless the DoD reveal the wreckage, we really don't know what this balloon is for, but I very much doubt you need that much power that we know of (it can also have a RAT or other kinetic energy generation onboard) and that could power a lot of thing. But then all these is up to our imaginations

Another thing is, to get any kind of SIGINT from 60,000 feet, you need those humongous high gain dish or Yagi type Antennas. This craft had nothing of that sort visible, the only visible hardware being solar panels.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

well can you explain why the Canadians kept quiet after a Chinese spy balloon went all the way through its entire west coast?

Canadian arm force is under command into Pentagon via NORD

Another thing is, to get any kind of SIGINT from 60,000 feet, you need those humongous high gain dish or Yagi type Antennas. This craft had nothing of that sort visible, the only visible hardware being solar panels.

YOUR ANSWER IS SATCOM ANTENNA

 

[sms]

lol, that thing have 20 + solar panel on it, I would say it generate electricity between 6000-8000W (my home have a 2000W system, and it only have 8x250W Panel on them, and it is enough to power half my house) on it, it's enough to power a small supercomputer (10 blade server is only around 5kW with 20 Intel Xeon CPU) Unless that balloon is hosting some kind of online gaming tournament while they process weather data, you have to be stupid to believe that was a weather balloon.

Lot can be done with 8KW, much more than just reading wind speed and barometric pressure.

2KW only!
How do you survive in Aus. A small air con + Fridge + dishwasher + washer/ dryer will consume much more than 2KW. Don't be cheap add put few Louboutin on ebay to get at least 5KW

 

[大汉奸柳传志]

Canadian arm force is under command into Pentagon via NORD

what about its civil government or the public? they don't seem to mind the balloon neither

In fact the US government and military was gonna choose to ignore the balloon as well, but some media picked it up and decided to hype it up, and it evolved into a situation.

 

[jhungary]

Lot can be done with 8KW, much more than just reading wind speed and barometric pressure.

2KW only!
How do you survive in Aus. A small air con + Fridge + dishwasher + washer/ dryer will consume much more than 2KW. Don't be cheap add put few Louboutin on ebay to get at least 5KW

I don't use much electronic, call me old fashion or call me paranoid from all the military intelligence experience, I don't use a lot of "Chips" at homes. The electronic I use are.

TV
Gaming Console
Washing Machine
270L Fringe
Computer (me) and iPad (my wife)
20000BTU Air Conditioning

And I did not install that Solar System myself, it comes with the house when I bought it.

Another thing is, to get any kind of SIGINT from 60,000 feet, you need those humongous high gain dish or Yagi type Antennas. This craft had nothing of that sort visible, the only visible hardware being solar panels.

This is a RC-135 rivot joint.

Did you see any high gain antennas or dish outside?? The package is on the wing (the probe) and the radar dome and whatever inside the aircraft. You won't see anything protruding outside, and mind you, this RC-135 is 130 x 136 ft, the balloon is not much smaller, anything probing can be hidden inside the payload.

 

[Oldman1]

the whole thing is just media overreaction to a weather balloon

World View's high-altitude Stratollite balloons capture some great images | TechCrunch

Pioneering near-space company World View is showing off what its so-called 'stratollite' balloons can do with a simple, off-the-shelf imaging sensor and a

techcrunch.com

World View’s high-altitude Stratollite balloons capture some great images​

Pioneering near-space company World View is showing off what its so-called ‘stratollite’ balloons can do with a simple, off-the-shelf imaging sensor and a view of Earth from between 65,000 and 75,000 feet up.

The company is hoping to use its ultra high-altitude balloons in a variety of commercial applications, including real-time image capture, and so it sent up one of its balloons to take pictures using optical imaging sensors that can provide sub-meter resolution of objects on the ground. That’s a tricky resolution to nail from low-Earth orbit, and World View is hoping its alternative will be useful to customers who want remote imaging without the trade-offs of orbital satellites.

Stratollites from World View will soon be able to deliver 10-15cm resolution, and it’ll also be able to offer “real-time, continuous downlink” connects for transfer of images, suitable for both commercial and government customer applications. These could be handy in surveilling a large work or job site, for instance, or in monitoring a location from a security perspective, too.

This is what their balloon looks like.

 

[Zhukov]

From intercepting Nuclear ICBMs to Solar power Baloons.

Warfare going Green and Cute.

 

[jhungary]

From intercepting Nuclear ICBMs to Solar power Baloons.

Warfare going Green and Cute.

IIRC Germany require all armoured vehicle, including tank, to meet the emission standard.

"Our army may not be designed to fight war, but they are certainly good for the environment."

 

[Wesen Hunter]

Empty words.

 

[khansaheeb]

Ok sir but remember Sir China have no other way to spy USA other than satellites Sir

They have ships, commercial planes and ground assets. Other than radar spectrum frequency mapping and air defense response what else can the balloon be used for?

 

[gambit]

I was not aware of sending Spy balloons to airspace of other countries is an acceptable practice. Is it?

@gambit please enlighten us.

No, it is not. Here is a little factoid not many talks about...

Vertical territorial airspace is as much as a country can exert PHYSICAL control. Horizontally, territorial airspace ends at the country's borders, but upward? The higher you can exert PHYSICAL control, the more you can claim how much is yours. The general acceptance is about 60,000 ft limit. Higher than that, it is somewhat open to interpretation whether a country can claim jurisdictional authority. The keyword is 'jurisdictional', as in law.

Being able to go to X altitude does not qualify as physical control. You have to be able to go a certain altitude, loiter around to make your presence known, challenge or put down challenger(s), and you must be able to do that under any condition, not just clear sky. Missiles do not qualify because they simply destroys. To exert control means you have the ability to let some lives and some dies at your pleasure. What restrains you are YOUR laws, not anyone else's.

60,000 ft altitude is actually quite difficult to control despite how much monitoring you can do. Air density at 60,000 ft is quite low and less air means more fuel to burn. So if you do not have a jet engine that can sustain itself so you can loiter around, you essentially do not have control at 60,000 ft and higher, which mean anyone can fly over your country with relative impunity.

At the time of the Chinese balloon shoot down, the F-22 launched a Sidewinder at 58,000 ft...

F-22 Safely Shoots Down Chinese Spy Balloon Off South Carolina Coast

A U.S. Air Force fighter safely shot down a Chinese high-altitude surveillance balloon, Secretary of Defense Lloyd J. Austin III said in a written statement.

www.defense.gov

The F-22 fired the Sidewinder at the balloon from an altitude of 58,000 feet. The balloon at the time was between 60,000 and 65,000 feet.​

As of now, the world understands that the US can decide who lives and dies at 60,000 ft and probably up to 70,000 ft over its land territory. This is actually bad news for the rest of the world because if you cannot control your country's airspace up to 60,000 ft, we can overfly you at our convenience. I do not mean just overfly but can loiter for as long as our fuel holds. It means that we can hang over your country at 70,000 ft and take as many pics as we like and know that you cannot to the same against US. People can laugh at US for shooting down a claimed 'weather' balloon, but legal and war experts knows better.

 

[sms]

No, it is not. Here is a little factoid not many talks about...

Vertical territorial airspace is as much as a country can exert PHYSICAL control. Horizontally, territorial airspace ends at the country's borders, but upward? The higher you can exert PHYSICAL control, the more you can claim how much is yours. The general acceptance is about 60,000 ft limit. Higher than that, it is somewhat open to interpretation whether a country can claim jurisdictional authority. The keyword is 'jurisdictional', as in law.

Being able to go to X altitude does not qualify as physical control. You have to be able to go a certain altitude, loiter around to make your presence known, challenge or put down challenger(s), and you must be able to do that under any condition, not just clear sky. Missiles do not qualify because they simply destroys. To exert control means you have the ability to let some lives and some dies at your pleasure. What restrains you are YOUR laws, not anyone else's.

60,000 ft altitude is actually quite difficult to control despite how much monitoring you can do. Air density at 60,000 ft is quite low and less air means more fuel to burn. So if you do not have a jet engine that can sustain itself so you can loiter around, you essentially do not have control at 60,000 ft and higher, which mean anyone can fly over your country with relative impunity.

At the time of the Chinese balloon shoot down, the F-22 launched a Sidewinder at 58,000 ft...

F-22 Safely Shoots Down Chinese Spy Balloon Off South Carolina Coast

A U.S. Air Force fighter safely shot down a Chinese high-altitude surveillance balloon, Secretary of Defense Lloyd J. Austin III said in a written statement.

www.defense.gov

The F-22 fired the Sidewinder at the balloon from an altitude of 58,000 feet. The balloon at the time was between 60,000 and 65,000 feet.​

As of now, the world understands that the US can decide who lives and dies at 60,000 ft and probably up to 70,000 ft over its land territory. This is actually bad news for the rest of the world because if you cannot control your country's airspace up to 60,000 ft, we can overfly you at our convenience. I do not mean just overfly but can loiter for as long as our fuel holds. It means that we can hang over your country at 70,000 ft and take as many pics as we like and know that you cannot to the same against US. People can laugh at US for shooting down a claimed 'weather' balloon, but legal and war experts knows better.

It sounds like a viable tactic to spy/ survey without any impunity. Why don't countries use balloons capable of flying >70K feet

 

[gambit]

It sounds like a viable tactic to spy/ survey without any impunity. Why don't countries use balloons capable of flying >70K feet

You have to ask that country. A high altitude balloon is not always the solution. Even if powered, a balloon is more susceptible to atmospheric wind and whatever gas used in the balloon expands as atmospheric pressure decreases creating its own set of issues.

The US military is testing stratospheric balloons that ride the wind so they never have to come down

A sensor that can spot the wind direction from miles away will let DARPA’s surveillance balloons hover at the very edge of space in one spot indefinitely.

www.technologyreview.com

There’s a major snag, though: current balloons shift with the wind and can only stay in one area for a few days at a time. At the height of the stratosphere, some 60,000 feet (18,300 meters) up, winds blow in different directions at different altitudes. In theory it should be possible to find a wind blowing in any desired direction simply by changing altitude. But while machine learning and better data are improving navigation, the progress is gradual.

If the target country is next door, it may not be tactically feasible to use a balloon because by the time your balloon reached that high altitude, it may not be over that target country. There are plenty of issues involved.

 

[jhungary]

They have ships, commercial planes and ground assets. Other than radar spectrum frequency mapping and air defense response what else can the balloon be used for?

I think mods need to merge all those balloon thread into one. Had been answering that question in all the different threa

Balloon at 60k ft can do a lot more than Spy SAT, Spy SAT can mostly do rudimentary work, such as IMGINT, or real time/near real time surveillance.

Balloon can do basically everything, flying at 60,000 ft, they can do MASINT, they can detect EM, RF, Heat emission, SIGINT, Radio Communication, active microwave transfer, they can even do stuff like tracking or eavesdropping on people conversation over cellphone as well as anything Satellite can do.

Another thing is Balloon fly slow. it means it have more loitering time on target. Balloon is a logical choice for those kind of work except that for China to do it, they must have known we will know and engage that balloon, especially they were flying on the low end of the spectrum, which is visually identifiable, most of the time anyone fly those balloons would go with between 70-90k corridor, which mean you can't see them from the ground and it will be hard for you to engage because fighter jet don't go up that high, you will need stuff that can go up to stratosphere.

On the other hand, speaking as a former counter intelligence person, that balloon is going to be treasure trove for the CIA and the FBI.