China takes cue from Gujarat Inc

[mfreak]

I hate repeating this - but what according to you is 'secularism' ?

The Indian constitution does not define it for me . Atleast you can help

It means India is NOT a Hindu state. It means each and every religion can be practiced in the state. Without persecution. OR, you can be an Atheist like me without anyone trying to take a dump in your oatmeal.

This is why we have Hindu Marriage act, Muslim marriage act (whatever they are called) etc.,

The preample of the Indian constitution defines India as secular. Secularism itself means freedom to practice whatever religion, so that word does not require explicit definition. Its like saying - India is a socialist country. Define socialism. Thats retarded, doesnt make sense.

Preamble:

WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure to all its citizens:
JUSTICE, social, economic and political;

LIBERTY, of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship;

EQUALITY of status and of opportunity;

and to promote among them all

FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and integrity of the Nation;

IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, DO HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION.

So dont come here and spew some Hindu crap on me. I personally consider religion itself to be the banal of human society. But atleast am okay with people's beliefs, not go around like a moron with a safron turban taking down mosques and churches.

Religion should NEVER and I repeat NEVER be allowed to affect governance. This is what I am worried about when I see people like Modi.

 

[Bhairava]

The westerners did? Only those really ignorant of Hinduism and dependent on the dictates of a village priest in Kanchi dan say that. The definition that you reject was the definition of Rammohun Roy, of Vidyasagar, of Ramakrishna Paramahansa, of Vivekananda, of Aurobindo. Not of sniveling little cowards like Savarkar, begging for mercy to the same Westerners that you act so brave about because you have to do nothing but posture on the Internet.

Snivelling little coward...dependent on the dictates of a village priest in Kanchi dan..? hahaha someone thought he has successfully insulted me. *facepalm*

Now that the discussion has come to the level of being personal, I take it that you have nothing better to add.

Let me just add that a personality like Savarkar will always stand tall enough to remain unblemished by the likes of you, how much ever you try. As they say, if you try to spit on the sun.........link

 

[Bhairava]

It means India is NOT a Hindu state.

That is a very shallow definition for secularism. Today the state religion of Gujarat is not Hinduism. So by your argument that means Gujarat is secular.

It means each and every religion can be practiced in the state. Without persecution. OR, you can be an Atheist like me without anyone trying to take a dump in your oatmeal.

Ok..that is not exactly what secularism means. That is just the Right to Worship. The state religion of England is Anglican Church and yet they have what you just said above.

This is why we have Hindu Marriage act, Muslim marriage act (whatever they are called) etc.,

Actually if you knew one bit of what 'secularism' actually is, you would not have said this. Secularism means no religion specific laws. Uniform Civil Code. One law for all citizens. Oh wait, that would be classified as 'communal' by 'secular' people like you

The preample of the Indian constitution defines India as secular. Secularism itself means freedom to practice whatever religion, so that word does not require explicit definition. Its like saying - India is a socialist country. Define socialism. Thats retarded, doesnt make sense.

No it is not secularism. You dont even know what secularism is.

Preamble:

WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure to all its citizens:
JUSTICE, social, economic and political;

LIBERTY, of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship;

EQUALITY of status and of opportunity;

and to promote among them all

FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and integrity of the Nation;

IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, DO HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION.

Oh boy..everyone is here only after getting great marks in 6ht grade civics. No need to copy paste the same stuff. No where is the definition of 'secularism' given in the above quoted part. Can somebody help me finding it out.

So dont come here and spew some Hindu crap on me. I personally consider religion itself to be the banal of human society. But atleast am okay with people's beliefs, not go around like a moron with a safron turban taking down mosques and churches.

Needless chest thumping. I just asked you if the Indian constitution defines what the word "Secularism" is and here we have hot rhetoric. Cool down,

Religion should NEVER and I repeat NEVER be allowed to affect governance. This is what I am worried about when I see people like Modi.

Gujarat is today one of the best governed states in india. If this is what religion does to governance, then I am all for it.

 

[Bhairava]

Gujrat develops because of enterprenural spirit of gujratis, not because of modi. But he is an able administrator, which makes things easier.

I would rate the Marwaris better than the Gujjus in enterprenural spirit. Why is Gujarat there where it is and Rajasthan there where it is ?

However that does not make him any less guilty (at least morally) for presiding over the worst communal riots in India, which gave India a bad name.

No one outside India hardly cared/cares what goes in India. And frankly who gives a damn as to what the Goras think about our internal affairs ?

Also they were not the worst communal riots in India..not by a long shot. Gujarat itself has seen much worse riots than this. This was just one in a long list of riots in India.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Snivelling little coward...dependent on the dictates of a village priest in Kanchi dan..?

Now that the discussion hass come to the level of being personal, I take it that you have nothing better to add.

Let me just add that a personality like Savarkar will always stand tall enough to remain unblemished by the likes of you, how much ever you try. As they say, if you try to spit on the sun.........link

Standing tall in a kneeling position? Oh, I get it. I am not well versed in Yoga.

A coward is a coward.

 

[Bhairava]

.... Babu Bajrangi and Maya Kodnani have been charged and arraigned, tried and convicted. There was not a whimper of protest from the proud Hindutvavadis......

.

Because Hindutvadis are not what your believe to be in your make-believe world where prejudice is the order of the day.

Standing tall in a kneeling position? Oh, I get it. I am not well versed in Yoga.

A coward is a coward.

Repost : Let me just add that a personality like Savarkar will always stand tall enough to remain unblemished by the likes of you, how much ever you try. As they say, if you try to spit on the sun.......

 

[Joe Shearer]

Snivelling little coward...dependent on the dictates of a village priest in Kanchi dan..? hahaha someone thought he has successfully insulted me. *facepalm*

Now that the discussion has come to the level of being personal, I take it that you have nothing better to add.

Let me just add that a personality like Savarkar will always stand tall enough to remain unblemished by the likes of you, how much ever you try. As they say, if you try to spit on the sun.........link

Please.

You are being very unfair to yourself. If I had intended to insult you, you would have known about it, and would not be guessing. I was merely citing facts. It is easy to understand your confusion, since facts are merely artifacts that you produce according to the dictates of the situation. So when somebody talks facts, clearly your mind travels towards what interpretation can be put to its appearance. It being the simple truth of course never occurs as a possibility. Pity is called for, not censure.

 

[Bhairava]

..... and the figures show the reality - inexorable decline since then.

Wait till reality hits you in the face.

And don't hold your breath counting the increasing number of semi-literates from capitation fee education swelling your numbers.

Even those semi-literate have the right to vote. That is what matters.

 

[Bhairava]

The 'minorities' didn't commit the killings, criminals did. The minority did not act together; there were no women or children at Godhra. Why did they have to face the consequences?

Criminals from the minority community. They were in a way responsible for everything that happened then and after. They should have thought what would happen if they indulged in this vile, barbaric attack.

Dara Singh, who called himself a Hindu, burnt alive an unarmed man and his two infant children. Are you, you hero, willing to be burnt alive as a punishment for his crime, just because you happen to be a Hindu?

Are you crazy ? He reaped what he sowed.

When people in a locality don't like goras coming and converting people often through fraudulent means it is always better to leave rather than wait for **** to hit the fan. These foreign funded conversions are undermining the very root of the Indian society and upsetting the delicate social fabric and in some cases even causing people to be openly anti-national as we saw during the Kudankulam protest which was nothing but a church sponsored agitation at the behest of foreign vested interests. No religious visas should be given to Goras to come and spread their **** here. If pos like these come from Australia and openly denounce Hinduism standing right inside a temple, then the Dara Singhs are not to be blamed. And if people are expected to tolerate these vile attacks on their religion,civilization under the crucifix of being 'secular', then to hell with it.

 

[Bhairava]

After the burning of train and the factions involved, govt. had to be on alert and should have taken appropriate measures, curfew and shoot at sight order if any revenge attack happened.

I hope not everyone thinks Godhara to be something to be proud of.

Man shoot at sight orders were very well there. Why are you people not taking into account one very crucial thing - the state of preparedness of the Indian police forces. How many have even seen Indian police with decent rifles, BPGs and sufficient ammo. When I was in NYC, I saw every cop carrying atleast 5 clips of 9mm. How many do Indian police carry, if at all they carry.

How many Police were there in Ahmedabad..how many were armed...how many rioters were there...was the amount of police sufficient to control the rioters ? Modi is on record saying [in the presence of Digvijay Singh, the then MP CM] that his request for additional police force to control the riots was denied by all three surrounding Congress rules states - Rajasthan, MP and Maharashtra. Do you think he has a magic wand, swishing which everything would return back to normal ?

We say how much time it took for the Army to be deployed in Assam..in 2012...in Gujarat Army was deployed in less than 3 days...

Lets also not forget about 250 Hindus were also killed..more than a hundred from police firing. The situation was simply out of hand... So lets give credit where it is due.

 

[Joe Shearer]

That is a very shallow definition for secularism. Today the state religion of Gujarat is not Hinduism. So by your argument that means Gujarat is secular.

" 'What is truth', said jesting Pilate, and would not pause for an answer."


The State of Gujarat is not safe for anybody not a Hindu. It does not have to declare its state religion as Hindu; it is already so, in fact, if not by statute. Statutes and laws are your weak point. What have you done of note other than through a mob?

Ok..that is not exactly what secularism means. That is just the Right to Worship. The state religion of England is Anglican Church and yet they have what you just said.

What nonsense! The state religion of England is not allowed to interfere with public life, with public affairs, except in the matter of the succession to the throne, which is defined by statute. Britain is secular in exactly the way that Gujarat is not, by practice. Their actions keep religion from impinging on the lives of citizens; in Gujarat, it is in the faces of citizens at all times.

Actually if you knew one bit of what 'secularism' actually is, you would not have said this. Secularism means no religion specific laws. Uniform Civil Code. One law for all citizens. Oh wait, that would be classified as 'communal' by 'secular' people like you

Nobody, anywhere, stopped your political front organization, that acts as a parliamentary party to gain power, from bringing in a civil code. Nobody, anywhere, stopped Hindus from giving up their privileged position in taxation, and the laws still allow them these special privileges. Why grudge these to other communities?

How many Hindus have subjected themselves voluntarily to the civil marriage act? I have, and in Januarys, my daughter will. We live our life secular. You, bigoted.

No it is not secularism. You dont even know what secularism is.

It is not a quiz competition, nor a test of knowledge. That is the trouble with all of those who live by dry-as-dust scriptural precept. If you know what secularism is, why are you asking? Why don't you practice it? Or if you have problems with it, why not spell them out, instead of hiding obscurantism behind a barrage of words?

Oh boy..everyone is here only after getting great marks in 6ht grade civics. No need to copy paste the same stuff. No where is the definition of 'secularism' given in the above quoted part. Can somebody help me finding it out.

If you want to know, I suspect your resources are up to this very difficult task. If you do not, then you should not waste everybody's time in concealing your own inadequacies, and in resorting to diversions.

Needless chest thumping. I just asked you if the Indian constitution defines what the word "Secularism" is and here we have hot rhetoric. Cool down,

Gujarat is today one of the best governed states in india. If this is what religion does to governance, then I am all for it.

Do you mean to say that if exclusion of religion would bring good governance, you would be for it? Testing that is fairly easy.

On the other hand, it is quite likely that you would be all for religion a priori, without the fig-leaf of good governance. You would have supported Modi originally, wouldn't you, even before your claims about Gujarat became apparent, even after the killings, when there was nothing to him but brutality?

 

[Joe Shearer]

I would rate the Marwaris better than the Gujjus in enterprenural spirit. Why is Gujarat there where it is and Rajasthan there where it is ?




No one outside India hardly cared/cares what goes in India. And frankly who gives a damn as to what the Goras think about our internal affairs ?

Also they were not the worst communal riots in India..not by a long shot. Gujarat itself has seen much worse riots than this. This was just one in a long list of riots in India.

This must be your finest hour.
"These were not the worst communal riots, there were worse. So this is not worth discussing."
"Who cares what the gora thinks (apart from when he decides my annual increment). We will riot the way we want!"
Truly, what a view inside your mind. Inspiring.

 

[Bhairava]

How could you ever have been a Dhimmi? Was, or is India an Islamic state? Do its Muslim citizens replace their taxes with zakat? Are you required to pay jiziya?

In a way yes - the money I give as offerings in a temple for its upkeep (and not for anything else) is used by the system to subsidise things like Haj. While whatever the parish or waqf properties are , are not touched by the Govt. So in a way I'm paying jiziya.

Aren't you effectively saying, between remaining a peaceful law-abiding citizen of a secular country and being a violent Hindu, you prefer to be a violent Hindu? (only on the Internet, of course. The very many obstructions to being a violent Hindu in real life are obviously very great).

No. You heard me right the first time..the choice was being a de-racinated, self-loathing 'liberal' who thinks it is incumbent on him to take every discrimination,abuse meted out to him for the sake of being liberal and a violent one. In that doomsday scenario, I prefer the latter. It is more honorable being violent than being impotent.

 

[Bhairava]

"These were not the worst communal riots, there were worse. So this is not worth discussing."

Nice try. But as always you failed. My reply was to another person who said definitively that this was India's worst communal riot. Not knowing India itself had a violent birth in the midst of a massive communal riot.

"Who cares what the gora thinks (apart from when he decides my annual increment). We will riot the way we want!"

I stand by it. NO one gives a damn what a friggin gora thinks of me. I'm not going to marry his daughter. The bolded part is as usual, trying to put words in one's mouth. *yawn* dont you ever get tired ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

I would rate the Marwaris better than the Gujjus in enterprenural spirit. Why is Gujarat there where it is and Rajasthan there where it is....

Of course. Now we have Bhairava the economic analyst. Laxmi Mittal, Kumaramangalam Birla, Gautam Singhania, Vijay Singhania, the Ruia Brothers....oh, but it's about the state, right? Have you really looked at the figures? Have you seen the Millennium Goal rating by state?