China’s Economic Empire

[Battle of Kursk]

You have addressed zilch.

You ignored 90% of the article, which is about the non-Western world, and are basing you claims on a couple of examples in Western countries. Unions complain all the time about labor conditions, including against Western bosses; that's what they literally get paid to do.

Once again, the article is not about what China is doing in the West; it is about the battle for economic influence around the world, and the article claims that the West is "hampered" by concerns of human rights and fairness.

Wow, well I see that intellectual honesty is not your thing. I have ignored most of the article however I brought all the clauses relevant to what you and me were discussing, which was not the main point of the article. Anyone can see that we were not discussing China but Human rights practices by the EU/USA and it's effect

Whatever, anyone reading this thread can see who has made logical referenced points in our little discussion, and who didn't...

 

[Developereo]

I don't have full information, but for the sake of the argument I'll assume you do. 5% subsidiary is not the same as 20% wouldn't you agree? I have not argued that the west does not practice subsidiaries, I am just curious to compare the extent.

Again, it depends on specific industries. You can get VERY deep discounts in specific industries.

Anyone can see that we were not discussing China but Human rights practices by the EU/USA and it's effect

I don't know about you, but I specifically wrote that, while Western countries respect human rights domestically, their record is not so stellar on the international front, and thus the article's thesis fails. The debate was never about human rights within Western countries.

 

[Audio]

Your numbers don't differentiate between local and export oriented subsidies.

I don't have a handy table because subsidies are divided across the eurozone, but the numbers for German car subsidy ($5 billion/yr), biofeul subsidies ($10 billion/y), etc. add up.

Just the transportation sector alone enjoyed subsidies $240 billion/year in Europe and $695 billion/yr in the US.

Perverse Subsidies: How Tax Dollars Can Undercut the Environment and the Economy - Norman Myers, Jennifer Kent - Google Books

What exactly does the transportation sector export to China? They get subsidies for eco diesel, hybrids and electric vehicles.
btw, the link says "You have either reached the page which is unavailable for viewing or reached your viewing limit for this book".

And if i may add, the biofuel subsidy (all the eco subsidies-which i admit there are quite a few) is meant to keep Europe green and clean. Not like China where a man jumps into the river to save a girl and catches a lung infection for it. And especially they are not meant to boost ailing export companies balance books.

As for our beloved red flagged brothers:

China is looking at subsidizing electric and hybrid cars (while filing a case against the EU in the WTO, designed, cleverly, to stop Europe from subsidizing high-value green technologies, while China plays protectionist catch-up).

http://theconversation.com/is-supporting-the-car-industry-so-expensive-compared-to-our-heavily-subsidised-lives-13386

YOU came up with the 2005 limit. The article doesn't impose any such restriction.

Up to 2005 the data available on the one table i provided. The remark which you quoted was merely trying to point out the subsidies didn't end there. Not to impose any restrictions. Evident of this should have been the other table which listed top subsidy recipients in 2011.

I guess you must not be into wine and cheese, or you would have heard about the trade wars between the EU and US over subsidies.

No, i really am not too much into cheese with fungi, as for the wine, Slovenia has one of the world's finest, so i don't need to buy French, Argentinian, Australian etc and be aware of the shenanigans with pricings. Call me backward but i know a farmer from whom i bought wine every single year. And it's spectacular. Sweet chardonnay.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/dining/reviews/slovenias-vineyards-and-a-vibrant-wine-culture-rebound.html?_r=0

^^ non relevant link, just about wine in Slovenia, so you don't say i lie when i say stuff about good wines.

It's not about upper hand, but the intellectual dishonesty to claim that, when European countries do something, it is a "stimulus package", but when China does it, it amounts to a subsidy.

Ok, i get your point, though the stimulus package really wasn't for businesses, but only for banks, while in China the stimulus was used to bolster the books of exporting businesses.
Let's try it another way, point me to a manufacturer whose subsidies amounted to over 50% profits. Like Geely auto company.

Also a good read while we are on the car industry:

http://www.ustr.gov/about-us/press-office/fact-sheets/2012/september/wto-case-challenging-chinese-subsidies


About Angola, couldn't help myself from not replying to this-your debate with Kursk:
China offers more generous return schedules, that is because the bank that lends is government owned and can afford to keep liabilities on the books for 2 decades. European commercial banks can't.

http://admin.gga.org/analysis/chinese-take-aways

 

[Developereo]

What exactly does the transportation sector export to China?

These subsidies lower transport costs for materials throughout the supply chain, which can make a big difference to the bottom line.

btw, the link says "You have either reached the page which is unavailable for viewing or reached your viewing limit for this book".

It's a link to a google book about "perverse subsidies".