CHINA PROVIDED Z10 HELICOPTER TO PAKISTAN

[jhungary]

I believe it was upgraded AH-1Zs. Not the most advanced helis, but they would be far safer than the current Pakistani cobra fleet.

The US offer is AH-1W super cobra not the zulu if i remember correctly.

AH-1Z is the latest cobra version, even the USMC were still upgrading their to zulu, it wont have second hand zulu anytime soon.

 

[That Guy]

The US offer is AH-1W super cobra not the zulu if i remember correctly.

AH-1Z is the latest cobra version, even the USMC were still upgrading their to zulu, it wont have second hand zulu anytime soon.

Ah, my mistake. Thank you for the correction.

 

[Beast]

just tell him China is superpower .he would calm down then.

Yes, a superpower that Turkey needs to buy a major weapon system like HQ-9 from.

I don't want to even respond to him. Ultra-nationalists will find every little thing to get offended about, there isn't even any reason to even insult him.

ULtra nationalist? Its more like you failure to back your reason for you fetish of turkish stuff without merit. You have yet to answer any of my enquiries.

 

[That Guy]

ULtra nationalist? Its more like you failure to back your reason for you fetish of turkish stuff without merit. You have yet to answer any of my enquiries.

Because your inquires are dumb, and have nothing to do with the current subject at hand. Also, your inquires involve stupid assumptions about me, and straw man arguments.

Your entire argument is based on logical fallacies.

 

[jhungary]

Ah, my mistake. Thank you for the correction.

no worries...

And i believe there are two different set of thing PAA should do, one is find a stop gap chopper and the other is making them themselves, since you cannot make them immediately, you would need to buy some to bridge the gap cause the Cobra PAA currently have is awful...

IMO PAA need to get some potent platform and have to be available now (So the only choice is probably Super Cobra or Mi35). Then think of TOT or design your own chopper....

As for AH1Z, T129B and Z10. If PAA goes with AH1Z then they are no doubt the best chopper and best battle proven chopper there are in the market, but they are also the most expensive (35 mil each...if I remember correctly) And you can forget about Making them yourselve.

T129B is a potent platform, with a better system compatiblity with Cobra and this means a easier and cheaper transition than Z10. But the main theme is the American Engine but they could be and would be solved easily. And Z10, well, not much is know about Z10 but if we assume they are the same class and firepower than T129 then I would still probably go for T129 with their system compatiblity, afterall, PAA have been operating American chopper for a long time and they would have a basic understanding on how western system works. Where the Z10 is a chinese chopper with Russian design, which would mean a venture into high water. As PAA have never have a Chinese Platform nor a Russian platform before

 

[syedali73]

Look at your double standard. One thing you say WZ-10 is unproven and yet T-129 has yet nothing of a combat history to prove anything and it goes to your favouritism without questioning.

A Pakistanis living in Canada will be typically bombard with all kind of anti-China bashing about China being a low tech and unproven technology. I can understand how you inherit this kind of mentality. Stop worshipping the West. The fastest super computer is build in China. China technology is on par or if not, better than some of them.

I could never understand this 'unproven technology' argument. F-16 is arguably one of the most potent and proliferative fighting machine of modern times. When it was incepted, was it based on a proven technology? F-117 and F-22 are technological marvels; were they based on any proven technology? AH-1 Cobra is the forefather of the attack helicopter design; was it based on any proven technology?

What is proven technology? This term, most of the time,is used incorrectly. In case of WZ-10, it is very well based on a proven technology, the technology behind the engine, the technology behind the rotors, the technology behind the overall shape of an attack helicopter (used in AH-1), the technology behind armored protection.What is technologically not proven? It is not that WZ-10 is a novel platform altogether powered by some mysterious engine running on a substance not present on the periodic table. Anything that has passed the initial phases of design and evaluation and entered into serial production is already technologically proven. What is remained to be done is to test the performance parameters of the machine in various environments and upgrade it as desired.

That is my two cents.

 

[Manticore]

How is the weapon payload and range compared to the cobra's we are operating?

I just made it via wiki


Was thinking of comparing the first 4 but decided to add some more during the process. Didnt add alligator,commanche,rooaivak as pak wont be getting them. Added apache, old cobra etc just for reference. z10 and t129 seem quite close. In terms of hard points all have 4-6.

here is the part2
Attack Helicopter Comparison | Page 3

 

[cabatli_53]

Unproven does not means is no good. If by your logic, the world will never progress with new technology.

WZ-10 design is more updated with reduced RCS and stealth coating. The advance HMS makes targeting and fire of ATGM a breeze.
Plus the KD-1 missile in terms of range and payload is superior to anything that the turkish can throw at us. The turkish even needs to buy HQ-9 SAM from China. I do not know what advantage of technology they have over China? If it's so good, they wouldn't even need to buy SAM but build one themselves.

Off topic: Turkish institutes want to develop domestic long range SAM system and claiming to finalize development of a much more advanced RF guided missile within max 7 years so making pressure politic wings of procurement to cancel the deal in order to start development of it as soon as possible but It is under consideration phase. I mean Ordering some missiles from China never mean Turkiye don't have sufficient technology which is going to be on par or surpass against Chinese or other missile makers. You are mixing the subjects...

Realistic, T-129 will forever stick with an American engine. Buying T-129 is as good as going back to square one.

I do not know what is your fetish with T-129 since many of their tech is still based on imported western technology. If you look at the spec between WZ-10 and T-129. WZ-10 gunship wins everything of T-129 in terms of weight , power and payload.

Wanted to buy a T-129 looks like a downgrade compare to WZ-10. T-129 is a light weight gunship not offering much protection while WZ-10 is a medium class gunship that will provide better spec.

Wins everything ? Overblown figures of your Z-10 on paper (Even If Z-10 has a weaker Power to weight ratio, Nobody can answer to me How Z-10 can reach higher altitude and climb quicker/per second than T129) makes you reach such a result ? Heavier take off weight on a weaker turboshaft engine than T129 is an advantage for you ?

I just made it via wiki


Was thinking of comparing the first 4 but decided to add some more during the process. Didnt add alligator,commanche,rooaivak as pak wont be getting them. Added apache, old cobra etc just for reference. z10 and t129 seem quite close. In terms of hard points all have 4-6.


here is the part2

Bro,
Performance specifications of Z-10 in this table never reflects truths. If you check kw/weight comparison among copters which is directly related with effective figures, You are going to see that heavier Z-10 with less powerfull engine is climbing faster, higher than almost all rivals in similar class. No need to mention "+" symbol to leave an open door. It is impossible in accordance with given weight and powerplant figures.

 

[A1Kaid]

Glad to see this acquisition take place. Will be interesting to see PAA experiment with the Z-10 in the battlefield.

 

[Manticore]

Bro,
Performance specifications of Z-10 in this table never reflects truths. If you check kw/weight comparison among copters which is directly related with effective figures, You are going to see that heavier Z-10 with less powerfull engine is climbing faster, higher than almost all rivals in similar class. It is impossible in accordance with given weight and powerplant figures.

The rate of climb by z10 might be calculated without full weapons load

 

[Viper0011.]

Well, it's not up to me, I'm a random guy expressing his opinion on the internet. Most of what you said, I've already mentioned in previous posts, so repeating myself would be pointless here.

You need to state your opinion once and stick to your position. The post I responded to, you were highlighting how Augusta is such a well known consortium and all. Which I agree with, but you also need to understand your country's financial power to buy the best and the most affordable in that cost it can afford. My post isn't saying anything you were nor do I really care to know how you think. You wrote a post, I stated my opinion. Anything more than that, you should go smoke a cigar and chill out!

 

[cabatli_53]

No hypocrisy here. The T-129 is being co-developed by AgustaWestland, which is a consortium with a proven history of developing reliable systems.

There is no need to be defensive about this. I get it, you feel the need to defend your nation's honor, but this isn't the place for that. I'm speaking from a political and military point of view, so getting offended over my comments is worthless for you to do.



So instead of addressing my points, you're going to attack me and my nationality? Why are you bringing up topics that have nothing to do with this subject? super computers have nothing to do with military helicopters.

As It is mentioned T129 is developed by a consortium called ATAK team (TAI,Agusta, Aselsan) and based on battle proven A-129 fuselage with wider, longer strenghtened fuselage with better gear box/powerfull engine, silent bigger 5 blade rotors and best EW sensor/avionics/radar/Electro-optics/Lazer sensors. Total carriage capacity of wings are also increased and Almost all mentioned parts are being manufactured by many Turkish institutes.

In recent years, A few Italian army A-129 were sent to Afganistan under the mission of NATO ISAF to provide effectiveness of copter to support ground and other aerial NATO troops. In an operation, An A129 was hitted by Taliban munitions and The copter turned the base without any damage on cockpit and engine...

10,000 Flight Hours for Italian A129 in Afghanistan

-----------------------------------------------------------------

In terms of T-129 Atak performance in trials,

From December 2011 to 2013/14, TAI pushed the limits of Atak prototypes and flew 3200+ hours. During flights, Following munitions were fired.

-42.000 (20mm gun)
-4.800 (70mm rocket)
-600 Flare

I think the reason of Proven/Unproven discussions will be clear more with all those informations...

 

[genmirajborgza786]

These gifts are on the similar lines of the 50 JF-17 gifts.. except even more dubious with this source.
Unless the Chinese are dying to battle-test their virgin toy, I have little faith in this story.

sir what about the Russian Mi-28 & Mi-35 , is Pakistan buying it ? , as I think its the best option both in terms of capability as well as Diplomacy from an Pak-Russia point of view

 

[OrionHunter]

For China, the "gift" to Pakistan could serve as a gift for the givers as well, as it might allow the PLA to see how the Z-10s perform in actual combat situations, providing valuable data for further research and development,

So the Chinese are using Pakistanis as Guinea pigs, making them do the testing on their behalf? Why can't they do it themselves? Is it too risky for the Chinese to do so?

No wonder they've given these choppers for free. But until further research and development is done, neither the Chinese would be able to use it nor can it be up for sale to other countries as no one will accept untested hardware. This will probably take another 3-5 years or so for it to be fully operationalized.

 

[Malik Alashter]

Pakistanis have a mine gold ( China) but they are not aware of it.

You should not only accept those z-10 but you have to go for full ToT from China.

those Z-10 are not less than any gun ship since Chinese are rich and they have the engeneering to do one of the best.

Any way how much this z-10 would cost in comparison to the Turkey sexy light at-129.