China, Pakistan ink $820m Thar coal agreement!

[Bilal.]

Project planned on faulty assumptions = mirage.

Faulty assumption as in? I thought you would have checked nayvelli and Hungarian lignite heating values by now.

 

[VCheng]

Faulty assumption as in? I thought you would have checked nayvelli and Hungarian lignite heating values by now.

What has that got to do with the lack of feasibility for Thar Coal? But it's okay. I have no problem if the project fails and the State is left to repay the loans at high interest. It won't be the first time Pakistan was taken for a ride. I will leave you to celebrate your delusions. Good day, Sir.

 

[Bilal.]

What has that got to do with the lack of feasibility for Thar Coal? But it's okay. I have no problem if the project fails and the State is left to repay the loans at high interest. It won't be the first time Pakistan was taken for a ride. I will leave you to celebrate your delusions. Good day, Sir.

And why do you claim thar coal as lacking feasibility? You have been citing it's heating value as the reason and when I am pointing to similar heating value (or lower) lignite being utilised successfully elsewhere suddenly it's irrelevant. My esteemed friend, what logic one needs to present that would hold more weight then your back of the envelope calculation? Because you neither believe in bankable feasibilities nor in similar projects elsewhere in the world.

 

[VCheng]

Bilal bhai,

Neyveli lignite lies right on the surface, which makes it cheap and easy to exploit. From what little I know of Thar Coal, it is not the same. After all, if that was so why wud Prof Mubarakmand suggest UGC?

Regards

Other places have successful UCG projects too. That failed with Thar coal, just as large-scale electricity generation using it will fail, given that there no way around the quality and the economics.

 

[Bilal.]

Bilal bhai,

Neyveli lignite lies right on the surface, which makes it cheap and easy to exploit. From what little I know of Thar Coal, it is not the same. After all, if that was so why wud Prof Mubarakmand suggest UGC?

Regards

Depth of thar coal has not been cited as an issue, it's calorific value has been.

 

[VCheng]

Syed sb,

Other places have successful UCG projects too.

Interested in hearing that, sir. Are these projects you are referring to large enough to meet energy needs of large countries like India or Pak? What is the scale? 100s of MWs?

Regards

As an example, here is a 50MWe project in South Africa, there are many others:

Update on the 50-MWe Theunissen Underground Coal Gasification Project | CORNERSTONE MAG

 

[insight-out]

What has that got to do with the lack of feasibility for Thar Coal? But it's okay. I have no problem if the project fails and the State is left to repay the loans at high interest. It won't be the first time Pakistan was taken for a ride. I will leave you to celebrate your delusions. Good day, Sir.

I first heard about Thar coal about 6 or 7 years ago. Over the years, there have been ups and downs, missteps and hyperbole. And yet through all the exploration activities, tests and feasibility studies, both the private sector and the government appear to have persisted in their pursuit of commercializing these mines.

What you are essentially suggesting is that this is one big evil scheme cooked up by a large number of people in government and the private sector, both in and outside Pakistan. That sounds like a textbook definition of a conspiracy theory.

 

[VCheng]

I first heard about Thar coal about 6 or 7 years ago. Over the years, there have been ups and downs, missteps and hyperbole. And yet through all the exploration activities, tests and feasibility studies, both the private sector and the government appear to have persisted in their pursuit of commercializing these mines.

What you are essentially suggesting is that this is one big evil scheme cooked up by a large number of people in government and the private sector, both in and outside Pakistan. That sounds like a textbook definition of a conspiracy theory.

No conspiracy here Sir. There is money to be made in inking deals, that is all I will say.

 

[insight-out]

No conspiracy here Sir. There is money to be made in inking deals, that is all I will say.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Conspiracies do not exist in a vacuum. Conspiracies are hatched to accomplish some illegal/harmful end, which per your suggestion is money.

 

[VCheng]

The two are not mutually exclusive. Conspiracies do not exist in a vacuum. Conspiracies are hatched to accomplish some illegal/harmful end, which per your suggestion is money.

So how do you think the State agreed to provide the sovereign guarantees to a private company for such a dubious project? Yes, I know, it must be the vitally important nature of the project, right?

 

[insight-out]

So how do you think the State agreed to provide the sovereign guarantees to a private company for such a dubious project? Yes, I know, it must be the vitally important nature of the project, right?

We do not know for sure if this is a "dubious project". I am saying that there may be some merit in this project. Of course money will be made on the side. That is true for any project. But your assertion that this entire deal is a ruse with the sole objective of making money illegally for a few is a classic conspiracy theory.

 

[VCheng]

We do not know for sure if this is a "dubious project". I am saying that there may be some merit in this project. Of course money will be made on the side. That is true for any project. But your assertion that this entire deal is a ruse with the sole objective of making money illegally for a few is a classic conspiracy theory.

Sir, this project has no real merit to its economics, or its end results. That is already quite clear, but of course people will want to test that conclusion out of misguided patriotism as always. It is their right which I respect, but without agreeing in this case.

 

[Viper0011.]

Why do you insist on digging yourself deeper in BS? Just how well has Dr. Mubarikmand's UCG project worked out in Thar so far? The rest of your diatribe is similarly useless in context.

You have NO come back to the facts I've stated.....you don't have background in this area. I actually have worked in this area......but you'll call others fact based comments "bullshiit". I even quoted the US Government's audit reports (GAO = Government Accountability Office). But yet, you'll continue on!! This is when one feels like you are arguing with tnternet warriors who are so close minded that to prove their comment, they'll just get personal. Come back when you have facts to counter the facts I've provided.

I am really sorry as this might hurt or offend many, but really? You think Dr. Mubarik is an authority on Oil and Gas? The guy's a scientist a Metallurgist I believe. In companies like XOM (Exxon), and GE, there are THOUSANDS of Mubarks and Mike's and Shakti's that conduct research day and night, for money that is probably ten times the budget of the entire Pakistan.

When you get Chest pains, do you go to your family doctor or a cardiologist? When someone has a Polyp inside their intestines, do they go to an Endocrinologist or a Registered Nurse???? You always go to specialists in a specialist field. Freckling, Sand Refinement, Coal - Gas production, Wind energy, Hydro, etc, are highly specialized engineering fields. A scientist working on Wind energy mechanics, would require a few years in Hydro, or Coal / Gas power plants. You can't just put people across different specialties just because they are "Scientists". Similarly, you can't treat a Cardiac patient by a family practitioner because they are all "Doctors". You need a cardiologist for it.

What Dr. Mubarik did, was a "Hypothesis" , meaning a proof of concept. The guy's been working in Weapons field, that's the best he could do. If you needed to run this project correctly, he needed to be TRAINED and gain experience on coal energy mining, extraction, engineering techniques to produce Coal from whatever grade it exists in.

This is the same mentality that took Nandi Por over by hundreds of millions dollars. The smart engineers told the government that " we've been running Tarbela for 5 decades, this is a small project and no match, start the project, we'll learn to manage and fix the machinery". Not realizing they are working on 5 decades old German machinery and an entirely different technology set!!

Shaky ground, previous history ....y such hate towards the project ...do u think all 6 -7 banks approved 820Mil in air

Arguing with the wrong mentality there, people like these, don't use common sense. So many banks have risked their money and the entire project is out there for public discussions. No politician or banker would want to go to jail by doing such open and mass scale corruption. Its very common in Pakistan to just blame the US for everything, or just use conspiracy theories and blame on corruption. People like the ones you are arguing with, has NO qualifications to be sounding like an expert on this (I can guarantee it by reading his "statements" without facts). But, he's a conspiracy theorist and that's what they specialized in doing.

I've come up with a new degree for these people: PhC = "Philosophy in Conspiracies" (aka, the conspiracy theories), while the PhD means Philosophy Doctorate.

 

[VCheng]

But yet, you'll continue on!

Okay, let us resume this dialogue when there are actually some results to discuss. Fair enough?

So many banks have risked their money and the entire project is out there for public discussions.

Wrong Sir. The loans have sovereign guarantees. Their money is not at risk at all. The good people of Pakistan are on the hook.

 

[Viper0011.]

Wrong Sir. The loans have sovereign guarantees. Their money is not at risk at all. The good people of Pakistan are on the hook.

and ALL other loans are uncle Sam's responsibility????? This post of yours, is YET another post that clearly shows how disconnected you are from the real world!!!!! Any loan that any country has, is a burden on Pakistan. Without googling it, tell me what's a sovereign guarantee..????? A loan is a debt on a country, PERIOD. Burden on her people if the economy doesn't grow to pay it off. Soverign guarantee is something ENTIRELY different. If you don't have a command on the subject, why keep wasting your and everyone else's time??

Its pretty obvious to every reader that you don't have knowledge on the subject, so why sound like a PhC (Philosopher in Conspiracy Theories)???? I came up with this degree for people like you. PhD means Philosopher Doctor. But PhC suits people like you