China Leads Race to the Moon

[jhungary]

Sorry to say this but US was busy of making wars and plot for global domination during these 40 years, it didn't have time to think for the moon. so please stop your pretentious claim that US is so lawfull and respect the treaty, if US could unilaterially abolish the ABM treaty and unlawfully take unilaterally military without UN approval, you think it care about outer space treay??? simply US don't have any mean to take this huge moon resource mining project over these 40 years after making huge spending in military for global domination.

When China land and build the moon base, we will do what ever we want including the exploitation of the Helium 3, and US will certainly not the one to declare war with China over this issue...LMAO

lol okay...

whatever you say

 

[Shotgunner51]

lol wut, Japan has better soil for new ideas? are you serious?

Yup I think so. The fact is core techs keep popping out from Japan, mostly in semi-conductors, electronics, precision tooling, robotics. They just lack the cost advantage in manufacturing but as as yen goes weaker manufacturing lines will move back to Japan, and that's our challenge.

On a more interesting note, I found background scene of "Interstellar" so similar to a Doreamon (Japan animation) movie 5 years ago, UFO on a corn field, worm holes .... etc. I am impressive with their imagination. My cousin just bought a PS4 international version, wow that's quite a leap forward from PS2 I played 10 years ago.

Anyway, I know that Japan is way more advanced in idea creations now. Hope we can catch up to their level soon, but by that time maybe Japan has evolved into Coruscant of the Galactic Republic.

 

[dankey]

Did you read this article suggesting the UN should get involved and set the rule on mining on the Moon? LOL We spent our effort and money into this and had to share? Did anyone share any resources they got with us? We have to pay market price for everything!

Now we said before that the 21st century greatest challenge to us is securing energy resources. We "somewhat" accomplish that but it is still not to our demand. We need more, a lot more. We are just glad that there is an alternative solution to our energy needed without causing dispute and conflict. So we expect everybody to respect our goal and don't mind what we are doing in our "scientific study of the moon".

agree.USA reject our scientific cooperation,becuase they paid the most money.so,we have the right to institute rules too.
yes,<in my place,you should listen to me> we learn it from the USA,and zhou jie lun.

Nobody has any right to stop us from exploring the resources on the moon. NOBODY, period! Can we get this clear?

relax."don't care the noice,just do it. " --by deng xiao ping

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Yup I think so. The fact is core techs keep popping out from Japan, mostly in semi-conductors, electronics, precision tooling, robotics. They just lack the cost advantage in manufacturing but as as yen goes weaker manufacturing lines will move back to Japan, and that's our challenge.

What new things have come out of Japan in semiconductors? What new materials or architectures are they utilizing? How are they working on materials beyond Si, or niche use materials such as materials for photodetectors, solar, etc? I'm in materials physics and I'm not aware of any Japanese achievements in the past 10 years that are revolutionary, at least in the field of semiconductor materials. However, I'm quite aware of numerous Chinese achievements, such as the engineering of a nanomotor (Rotating nanotube motors offer glimpse of future nanodevices optical stealth materials (Nearly perfect, ultrathin invisibility cloak could have wide practical applications and the development of spintronics (information manipulation with spins instead of/in addition to charge) in graphene (Graphene and 'spintronics' combo looks promising

Robotics - that's an interesting one; which artificial intelligence institutes does Japan have? The ones I'm aware of are from Baidu and Google. To speak of artificial intelligence, search is one of the applications of artificial intelligence. What search engine has Japan come up with? Precision tooling - now is this a NEW technology?

I think you have it backwards, in fact - the reason that Japan is coming out with "core technologies" in these areas is because it has been completely unable to adapt to the changing market, which is more networked, global and mobile than ever before. It is coasting on previous gains (吃老本). It keeps going in these traditional areas because it is unable to compete in new areas. That's why Japan is doing very poorly in mobile phones, software, telecommunications hardware, internet, etc. because it has been unable to adapt to change.

 

[Shotgunner51]

What new things have come out of Japan in semiconductors? What new materials or architectures are they utilizing? How are they working on materials beyond Si, or niche use materials such as materials for photodetectors, solar, etc? I'm in materials physics and I'm not aware of any Japanese achievements in the past 10 years that are revolutionary, at least in the field of semiconductor materials. However, I'm quite aware of numerous Chinese achievements, such as the engineering of a nanomotor (Rotating nanotube motors offer glimpse of future nanodevices optical stealth materials (Nearly perfect, ultrathin invisibility cloak could have wide practical applications and the development of spintronics (information manipulation with spins instead of/in addition to charge) in graphene (Graphene and 'spintronics' combo looks promising

Robotics - that's an interesting one; which artificial intelligence institutes does Japan have? The ones I'm aware of are from Baidu and Google. To speak of artificial intelligence, search is one of the applications of artificial intelligence. What search engine has Japan come up with? Precision tooling - now is this a NEW technology?

I think you have it backwards, in fact - the reason that Japan is coming out with "core technologies" in these areas is because it has been completely unable to adapt to the changing market, which is more networked, global and mobile than ever before. It is coasting on previous gains (吃老本). It keeps going in these traditional areas because it is unable to compete in new areas. That's why Japan is doing very poorly in mobile phones, software, telecommunications hardware, internet, etc. because it has been unable to adapt to change.

I am an outsider of material physics, so I respect your views in it.

On electronics, I think Japan still dominates the uppermost sector in the value chain. Take smartphone as an example, critical components like camera lens and CMOS senors are still in their hand, while SK/Taiwan can only match (not exceed) in displays. On the metallic casings, circuit board, Taiwan corps dominates the production with machines made in Japan. And DRAM, micro-processor, lithium battery, Japanese has core tech that Taiwan/SK and US defense contractors (e.g. Boeing on 787, Lockheed Martin on PAC-3) have to reply on their supply. This is an one area that we China has to work hard.

On mechanical engineering, just in civilian sector, we rely on Japan to supply say automatic gear boxes, air-con compressors, ball bearings, etc. The gap is bigger in industrial machinery, say 9 axis digital milling machine (critical to producing big parts that need precision like propeller of SSBN). I would say the lead is even more prominent than as in electronics. In another country can match, that would only be Germany (say Rheinmetall in Dusseldorf ), not US, not China.

They are doing poorly downstream in the value chain, be it manufacturing and marketing, so they just retreat upstream to focus on what they do best, R&D - invention - setting standards. That's what we can't match, as of now.

 

[Established_1965]

Not at all
In fact I would have said in my earlier comment succinctly the titile is provocative.

We have come a long way despite the cold shoulders. We indeed have done many breakthroughs but China is also not leading in "New Space Race" overall. There are still quite a number of domains where we have to settle for 2nd, 3rd or even lower bests whereas the USA is still ways ahead of the rest such as

1. We have not done anything substantial onto Mars yet
2. The heaviest lift of our rockets right now is still below those of the USA, Russia, Japan
3. GPS' differential positioning system can be as accurate as only 10cm
4. US spy satellites can produce much better imaging on smaller object
5. NASA's Voyager 1 has already left the solar system in 2012 since its launch in 1977 and still navigating deep into the interstellar space. Such momentous feat is unachievable by CNSA now
6. NASA and company have set up a sizeable space station which is still functioning in orbit for its 15th year currently since launch etc

So there is still many Kms for us to cover. We still have to work harder

I strongly believe China got human resource and $$$ to do it and Thanks for an excellent explanation.

PS: This is the first time on this forum someone cared to explain my question with appropriate answer rather than trolling, cursing and abusing.

 

[MarkusS]

I appreciate evry step in that direction. The EU also plans a moon base. We want 3d print the base there so we don´t need to bring up all the material. ESA already made a technology that can use the regolith there to build the basic structure. It can make 2 meters wall each hour.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

I am an outsider of material physics, so I respect your views in it.

On electronics, I think Japan still dominates the uppermost sector in the value chain. Take smartphone as an example, critical components like camera lens and CMOS senors are still in their hand, while SK/Taiwan can only match (not exceed) in displays. On the metallic casings, circuit board, Taiwan corps dominates the production with machines made in Japan. And DRAM, micro-processor, lithium battery, Japanese has core tech that Taiwan/SK and US defense contractors (e.g. Boeing on 787, Lockheed Martin on PAC-3) have to reply on their supply. This is an one area that we China has to work hard.

On mechanical engineering, just in civilian sector, we rely on Japan to supply say automatic gear boxes, air-con compressors, ball bearings, etc. The gap is bigger in industrial machinery, say 9 axis digital milling machine (critical to producing big parts that need precision like propeller of SSBN). I would say the lead is even more prominent than as in electronics. In another country can match, that would only be Germany (say Rheinmetall in Dusseldorf ), not US, not China.

They are doing poorly downstream in the value chain, be it manufacturing and marketing, so they just retreat upstream to focus on what they do best, R&D - invention - setting standards. That's what we can't match, as of now.

None of those are inventions nor revolutionary. You specifically said that Japan is setting *new* standards and having *new* ideas. Can you tell the difference between a BYD lithium ion battery (used in motor vehicles), an LG one, and a Sony one? These are refinements on sectors they are already entrenched in, not new sectors and new markets. Your arguments are actually just supporting my views. They are doing RD in areas they already know, what we call "shaving significant figures".

 

[Shotgunner51]

None of those are inventions nor revolutionary. You specifically said that Japan is setting *new* standards and having *new* ideas. Can you tell the difference between a BYD lithium ion battery (used in motor vehicles), an LG one, and a Sony one? These are refinements on sectors they are already entrenched in, not new sectors and new markets. Your arguments are actually just supporting my views. They are doing RD in areas they already know, what we call "shaving significant figures".

You are not arguably wrong but complete negligence of fact. Japanese invention and setting standard is very well known, you may easily compile a list, here is an incomplete one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_inventions; for those who are interested, please do further research.). No new standards from Japan?

Since 1949, there have been 22 Japanese (or Japanese born) winners of the Nobel Prize. Moreover, 19 of them in natural sciences. No new ideas from Japan?

The hard cruel fact is, Japan still leads in natural sciences, applied sciences, R&D, technology and top-notch production. They dominate supply of a lot of critical components/equipments/tools/know-how that we need to upgrade our business.
We have to catch up, but how?
Why they have achieved so much, and we haven't?
My answers are in my previous posts, new constructive ideas for betterment are welcome for brain-storming.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

You are not arguably wrong but complete negligence of fact. Japanese invention and setting standard is very well known, you may easily compile a list, here is an incomplete one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_inventions; for those who are interested, please do further research.). No new standards from Japan?

Since 1949, there have been 22 Japanese (or Japanese born) winners of the Nobel Prize. Moreover, 19 of them in natural sciences. No new ideas from Japan?

The hard cruel fact is, Japan still leads in natural sciences, applied sciences, R&D, technology and top-notch production. They dominate supply of a lot of critical components/equipments/tools/know-how that we need to upgrade our business.
We have to catch up, but how?
Why they have achieved so much, and we haven't?
My answers are in my previous posts, new constructive ideas for betterment are welcome for brain-storming.

Those achievements are in the distant past. Even the Nobel Prize last year was awarded for something that happened in the early 90's. What are they achieving that is *new* right now, not new 20 years ago? I think we have different definitions of the word "new" but to me 20 years ago is not "new".

I don't think they have some magical, insurmountable achievement. Japanese society is very different from US society, and the US has allowed Japan to catch up. You haven't said anything productive or constructive and you are not looking at Chinese achievements.

I also don't think Nobel Prizes are an accurate measure of scientific progress. South Korea has less natural science Nobel Prize winners than India and Pakistan. Nobel Prize is not transparent, there's some fields that will never have a Nobel Prize no matter how good you are, and no one knows how the committee comes to a conclusion. What about number of publications, citations (both total and per-paper), patent publication numbers and other mainstream metrics?

Also, for standards, all I know is that Japan uses the failed CDMA 2000 standard, whose planned upgrade of UMB has been abandoned in favor of LTE.

TD-LTE is one of two LTE standards (the other being frequency-division LTE), which has been developed almost entirely by Chinese companies. Time-Division Long-Term Evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Shotgunner51]

Those achievements are in the distant past. Even the Nobel Prize last year was awarded for something that happened in the early 90's. What are they achieving that is *new* right now, not new 20 years ago? I think we have different definitions of the word "new" but to me 20 years ago is not "new".

I don't think they have some magical, insurmountable achievement. Japanese society is very different from US society, and the US has allowed Japan to catch up. You haven't said anything productive or constructive and you are not looking at Chinese achievements.

I also don't think Nobel Prizes are an accurate measure of scientific progress. South Korea has less natural science Nobel Prize winners than India and Pakistan. Nobel Prize is not transparent, there's some fields that will never have a Nobel Prize no matter how good you are, and no one knows how the committee comes to a conclusion. What about number of publications, citations (both total and per-paper), patent publication numbers and other mainstream metrics?

Also, for standards, all I know is that Japan uses the failed CDMA 2000 standard, whose planned upgrade of UMB has been abandoned in favor of LTE.

TD-LTE is one of two LTE standards (the other being frequency-division LTE), which has been developed almost entirely by Chinese companies. Time-Division Long-Term Evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I hope you are not changing the point of argument from yes or no to what's new and what's "distant past". Japan has achieved a lot (with no quantum shift in parameters there is no reason to project that this momentum will stop all of a sudden), Japan now still leads (factual), Japan's soil does breed brilliant minds.

There is no point in finding another measure to replace a widely appreciated measure like Nobel Prize to to gauge Japan's success. Anyway what we need is an order of magnitude of success, which cannot be numerised down to the last digit. Different measures give different results, and measures themselves need to be calibrated for accuracy anyway. My observation is, Japan is classified as a leading country in tech compared to China, any counter argument with proof welcome.

I have no idea while telco standard is brought to discussion? It's no fun at all. Ok let's summarize the events then, anyway I have worked in telco before .... the framework is simple, just as any free markets Japan is much more relaxed on telco standards, market is the only driving force. From 1G (Cellular, GSM) to 4G (FDD-LTE), companies from Europe, Japan and US all (Ericsson, Alcatel, NTT Docomo, Toshiba, NEC, Qualcomm, CISCO, AT&T etc) have their bet on the market, winning or loosing, pure market rules. Later, some Chinese companies (like Huawei, ZTE) come into the picture, doing what they do best - manufacturing the equipments. At 3G (CDMA, WCDMA), China GOVERNMENT wanted to have a say in the market standard, invited Datang (a Chinese firm) to launched another standard alongside with CDMA, and finally end up with TD-CDMA which is not a completely new thing but variation of WCDMA. The result was not totally satisfying, go check with any Chinese consumers who have chosen TD-CDMA of China Telecom as compared to WCDMA of Unicom. The same happened again in LTE era, FD as a variation alongside with FDD. This exactly proves that yes we are try catching up, but no we are not not leading. Yes we are good at making, and yes quite OK in participating in innovation, but no we are absolutely not innovation leaders yet.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

I hope you are not changing the point of argument from yes or no to what's new and what's "distant past". Japan has achieved a lot (with no quantum shift in parameters there is no reason to project that this momentum will stop all of a sudden), Japan now still leads (factual), Japan's soil does breed brilliant minds.

There is no point in finding another measure to replace a widely appreciated measure like Nobel Prize to to gauge Japan's success. Anyway what we need is an order of magnitude of success, which cannot be numerised down to the last digit. Different measures give different results, and measures themselves need to be calibrated for accuracy anyway. My observation is, Japan is classified as a leading country in tech compared to China, any counter argument with proof welcome.

Nobel prizes only measure the top 0.1% of the country's innovators. It doesn't measure all innovators. Like I said - which is more advanced, South Korea or Pakistan?

I don't doubt that Japan's soil breeds brilliant minds. What I'm doubting is that your claim is that it breeds brilliant minds at a rate extraordinarily higher than other major countries such as China, and more importantly, whether it can translate brilliant minds into opening new markets in the 21st century. They have a culture of conformity, which I've stated before, and which I've said will hold them back in new innovations in the 21st century, that is, within the last 10 years. That has been evidenced by Japan's lack of leadership in the markets and research fields that have opened up in the last 10 years.

I'm not doubting Japanese leadership in technology; I'm doubting that you are placing them as so far out of reach of China that it requires China to undergo extraordinary social and cultural changes to catch up. Just look at scientific publication and patent trends over the last 30 years.

Also, are Huawei and ZTE not two of the leading companies in telecom patents count? Then why classify them as "makers" and "followers", when they've got the patents? I find it funny that ppl like you often apply a double standard - when a Chinese firm makes something, its because "Chinese are only good at making, but bad at designing." When a Chinese fabless firm gets a new product out made by someone else, its "Who cares about the design, they can't even make it". LMAO.

 

[Beidou2020]

the race was won in 69'

But when the Chinese go to the moon, it will be the first time humans have gone to the moon. China doesn't need studios.

Indeed, I watched the Apollo 11 lunar landing on television at the time. I was 10 and I can remember it very clearly. The Communist Chinese are some decades too late in this race.

You will get the real thing when China goes to the moon. This will not be done in hollywood studios like in 1969.

 

[TaiShang]

Service module of China's lunar orbiter enters moon's orbit

BEIJING, Jan. 11 (Xinhua) -- The service module of China's unmanned test lunar orbiter successfully decelerated, allowing it to enter an 8-hour orbit on Sunday, according to the Beijing Aerospace Control Center.


Following instructions from the center, the service module conducted the braking at around 3 a.m. and entered the 8-hour elliptical moon orbit with a perilune of about 200 km and an apolune of about 5,300 km.

The spacecraft has sustained balanced energy and is in a sound condition, according to the center, adding that the center exercised timely and stable control and tracing of the service module and relevant tests had been carried out smoothly.

The module will make its second and third braking in the early hours of Jan. 12 and 13 respectively to enable it to enter the target 127-minute orbit for tests to prepare for the next lunar probe mission, Chang'e-5, said center's chief engineer Zhou Jianliang.

"The first braking is the most crucial," Zhou said. "Precise braking must be performed at perilune to prevent it from flying away from the moon."

The lunar orbiter was launched on Oct. 24. The service module was separated from the orbiter's return capsule on Nov. 1, which returned to Earth on Nov. 1 after circling the moon during its eight-day mission.

The service module reached the Earth-Moon second Lagrange Point (L2) in late November and left the L2 point on Jan. 4 after completing all preset scientific detection tasks.

The orbiter is a test run for the final chapter of China's three step lunar program -- orbiting, landing and returning.

The obtaining data and validating re-entry technology will inform the development of Chang'e-5, which is slated for launch around 2017.

 

[Red Spinifex]

But when the Chinese go to the moon, it will be the first time humans have gone to the moon. China doesn't need studios.



You will get the real thing when China goes to the moon. This will not be done in hollywood studios like in 1969.

Another fool who believes the 1969 lunar landing was staged by the Americans. I'll bet he believes the earth is flat, too.