China is stumbling hard at acquiring the high-tech chip companies it wants so badly

[CriticalThought]

Yer welcome. Just another item in the technical fields that your Chinese friends will never be able to give and be honest about it.


Nonsense.

In engineering, we cannot afford to 'live in the past', another vague and usually meaningless pithy saying. But what am talking about has to do with dealing with the consequences of the past, and consequences are inevitable. You can force an inanimate object to do whatever you want at any time, but you cannot make a cultural change overnight, over a year, or even over a decade. For any cultural change, you need a new generation of people and China is still changing, not yet complete that transition. Corruption is still widespread at all levels of governance and corporations.

All the achievements that your Chinese friends boasts about here ? They are the exceptions, not the rule. The proverbial 'old guards' are still in influential positions of power in government and corporations. They change only if there are personal benefits involved, not because they feel anything for China as an ideal. That idealism belongs to the young and even though that change is happening, China still has a long way to go, pal.

But to return to semiconductor...

I do not support any sale of any US semicon company to any Chinese interests. And yes, I do believe it is our national interests to block such sale. Why should I care about China's national interests, other than to make them disadvantageous to the US ? You think any country is any different when it comes to their national interests ? You think I care if China is continuously behind US ? Do not talk to me about cooperation for humanity's sake. I can argue at the same level of abstraction that since China was committed to communism, an evil form of governance, why should we cooperate with any country that is willing to do such political harm to humanity in general ?

If China cannot acquire any tier-one semicon company, Western or Asian, China must work to develop her own indigenous semicon industry. That means government subsidies no matter what. Successes or failures must be taxpayer supported. Only thru trials and errors can any pure Chinese semicon company become intellectually independent and on the path to become a genuine innovator. Right now, China is NOT intellectually independent. Charge me with being a 'racist' all you want. It will not do away with the reality that China's semicon industry still needs foreign assist at every level. But then the problem of corruption remains. As long as taxpayers' money -- an apparently endless source of wealth -- are involved, taking a little bit here and a little bit there, who is going to miss those 'little bit', eh ?

So if you were to estimate a timeframe when China will acquire this technology what would you say?

 

[gambit]

So if you were to estimate a timeframe when China will acquire this technology what would you say?

China already know how to make semiconductor products, at least the commodity ones such as DRAM or NAND.

But the reason why China wants to acquire an entire tier-one semicon company is the access to the 'secret sauces' that every company has in order to become a genuine innovator, and not merely a commodity products producer. In this, there is no credible estimate for any timeframe for when China will achieve that status.

The quickest is to acquire a tier-one company, but the best path is to natively produce one. Sure, China can use mercenary engineers from any country, but at least whatever they produce will belong to China, not just in the legal but also in the intellectual realm. This Chinese company will have to create its own 'secret sauces' and produce products from there.

 

[Dash]

China already know how to make semiconductor products, at least the commodity ones such as DRAM or NAND.

But the reason why China wants to acquire an entire tier-one semicon company is the access to the 'secret sauces' that every company has in order to become a genuine innovator, and not merely a commodity products producer. In this, there is no credible estimate for any timeframe for when China will achieve that status.

The quickest is to acquire a tier-one company, but the best path is to natively produce one. Sure, China can use mercenary engineers from any country, but at least whatever they produce will belong to China, not just in the legal but also in the intellectual realm. This Chinese company will have to create its own 'secret sauces' and produce products from there.

Indian company TATA after buying Jaguar LR still can't touch British IP. I'm a little skeptic all of how China can acquire the "secret sauce " even after buying one.

 

[kankan326]

China already know how to make semiconductor products, at least the commodity ones such as DRAM or NAND.

But the reason why China wants to acquire an entire tier-one semicon company is the access to the 'secret sauces' that every company has in order to become a genuine innovator, and not merely a commodity products producer. In this, there is no credible estimate for any timeframe for when China will achieve that status.

The quickest is to acquire a tier-one company, but the best path is to natively produce one. Sure, China can use mercenary engineers from any country, but at least whatever they produce will belong to China, not just in the legal but also in the intellectual realm. This Chinese company will have to create its own 'secret sauces' and produce products from there.

Ever think about the possibility of semiconductor becoming next transistor? China is a leading researcher in quantum computer. Once China makes a big breakthrough in this field, most your technical barriers in the semiconductor will be meaningless.

 

[gambit]

Indian company TATA after buying Jaguar LR still can't touch British IP. I'm a little skeptic all of how China can acquire the "secret sauce " even after buying one.

The 'secret sauces' are not confined to written IP docs that are legally protected thru purchase agreements or joint ventures or something like that. These 'secret sauces' rests in what we call 'tribal knowledge' or 'institutional memory on how to get shit done'. These are essentially unsecured knowledge that no one can really quantify as to their benefits but everyone knows they are equally important as documented IP.

 

[大汉奸柳传志]

Kid, you do not know what you are talking about.

When the words 'high tech' or just 'tech' are used, it is vague enough to give the gullible certain impression. But when the word 'semiconductor' is used, you are talking about a specific industry with specific product lines.

In semiconductor manufacturing, there is something call 'deprocessing'...

http://www.ial-fa.com/blog/semiconductor-failure-analysis-deprocessing-modern-devices

While the above example mentions 'failure analysis', product deprocessing means buying a competitor's product, usually the latest and greatest, and take it apart to see how it works and hopefully to have educated guesses on how that product was designed and constructed. Secondary importance is to see if the competition is using your designs and this is where IP protection comes into play, but that is for a different debate. All semicon companies uses deprocessing methodologies. They uses it on their own products as well as on competitors' products.

What this mean is that all Chinese semicon companies know the details of US, JPNese, and SKReans products. Down to the individual substrate layers. Once a new product is available for engineering samples, everybody has it and begin taking it apart. What this also means is that once your new product is available for engineering samples to potential customers, and that your competitors got their hands on your new product and begins their own deprocessing methods, you are at best two yrs ahead of the competition. But more like one yr. That is how fast companies work on their competitors' products.

However, deprocessing can only get you so far. You WILL know the design, materials, and probably the construction recipes. But what you will not have are the finer points of the manufacturing steps that are unique from product to product, from fab to fab, and even down to chemical suppliers.

This is why it is always better to acquire the entire semicon company rather than try to figure out why their products works while yours, despite your best efforts at deprocessing, consistently fails. You may guess that a certain material was vapor deposited, but you cannot guess precisely at what voltage, temperature, or even if the oven chamber's design had any influence. And that is why your copy failed while your competitor's version sells profitably.

So just because you use the words 'high tech', it is meaningless to people like me who have semicon manufacturing experience, and I even have experience in taking apart competitors' products. The most important are recipes and manufacturing processes, not final products.

What point exactly are you trying to make gambit? Of course knowing the schematics and mastering the fine craftsmanship in the production process are two very different things - we are well aware of that. You somehow make it sound like the Chinese only want to buy the tech but not the whole business, which is beyond ridiculous.

Maybe in your limited imagination, when the Chinese bought the company, they just send in some people to raid the design dept for some "secretive recipe" written on some magical scrolls, after they found them, they just dump everything else in the trash and firing all the employees.

Nope. we have every intention of keeping these companies in business while making them more competitive, but who am I trying to convince here, these scenarios fit perfectly into the recurring nightmares of “Commies Taking Over” ever since your childhood. So I see this is pointless.

Maybe the only person who needs to grow up here, is you.

 

[gambit]

What point exactly are you trying to make gambit?

That you do not know what you are talking about just because you use the words 'high tech'.

China can buy some companies that are ancillary to semiconductor products, but the real achievement is a company that actually make semicon products.

You think the US is the only one concerned with China shopping ?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...hter-curbs-on-foreign-takeovers-idUSKBN19W2R6

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-push-to-curb-foreign-takeovers-idUSKCN1BT0SL

 

[大汉奸柳传志]

China can buy some companies that are ancillary to semiconductor products, but the real achievement is a company that actually make semicon products.

Do u consider Qualcomm or Apple less of a semiconductor company than Intel, simply because they don‘t “actually make semicon products”? If so，it is only your opinion and should be kept to yourself.

Everyone knows the Moore's Law is coming to an end, which means the chip making business is no longer a high stake race as it used to be. How is it possible to be always one step ahead of others, when the physical limit of silicon based IC is reached? It seems to me the chip makers will become less profitable in the foreseeable future, while going fabless is getting more viable. Same reason China focusing on chip designing rather than chip making is a smart move, and progresses have been made over the years even without buying foreign companies.

To dismiss them as not “real achievement” just because of your own preference, is simply outrageous!