China ‘Decodes’ F-22, F-35 Puzzle; Flaunts ‘World’s First Anti-Stealth Radar’ That Can Detect Stealthiest Of Aircraft

[LeGenD]

Evry object that moves through radio waves creates disturbance and thus can be detected. Its simple physics.

The fundamental objective of stealth is to delay detection from various perspectives and create warfighting possibilities in this manner.

A great deal of science including Mathematics and Physics is involved in development of modern stealthy applications. This is largely classified work and not taught in schools.

Beside that you dont need any radar to defetct F-35, its a crappy jet with myriad of technical issues.

Greece wants to buy this shit as well and there is much oppossition for that, because most likely even an old Cessna is a more formidable aircraft.

You lost me here. A crappy jet with myraid of technical issues cannot function in technically demanding environments such as aircraft carrier(s) and deliver results in complex A2/AD environments such as Syria where Russian military is present.

F35 has only one engine, is slow and not very agile. The entire system is a joke. Evry helmet costs half a million euro and fits only one pilot. That system is ridicolous. Rafale and Eurofighter are superior in speed, agility and performance.

Greece needs an aircraft that ias agile, powerful and fast. The F35 meets none of those criteria.

Engine design and performance = important consideration

Snecma M88 (for Rafale F3R)
Military thrust = 50 kN
Afterburner thrust = 75 kN
TW ratio (Dry) = 5.68:1
TW ratio (Afterburner) = 8.52:1
OPR = 24.5:1

Pratt & Whitney F135 (for F35A/B/C)
Military thrust = 128 kN
Afterburner thrust = 191 kN
TW ratio (Dry) = 7.47:1
TW ratio (Afterburner) = 11.47:1
OPR = 28:1

- - - - -

F-35 HMD is the most advanced equipment of its kind in the world. It contains six external cameras in total, provides night vision and thermal imagery to the pilot, and also allows the pilot to see through the airframe and track targets without having to look back and forth from cockpit screen(s). It can process huge amount of information for the benefit of the pilot.

It is not casual wear, however. Well-trained technicians are involved in making sure that the F-35 HMD is good fit on a pilot.

- - - - -

Clean configuration vs. Loaded configuration? It is important to understand how a jet fighter will perform in Loaded configuration.

In the thick of combat, your ability to complete a mission is essential. It would be better for you to reduce your footprint instead of spiking it with use of afterburner(s). Towards this end, RCS reduction, Thermal reduction, Acoustics reduction, LPI sensor systems, very high degree of data fusion between onboard sensor systems, secured communication links, EW capabilities, supercruise (if available), and 'mission planning' are your best bet.

Contrary to misconceptions created by the usual suspects, F-35 is one of the most maneuverable jet fighters in the world.

I think you dont get it. We dont want an offensive airforce but a defensive one.

Its plain and simple? Can F-35 stand in a normal hangar without air condition, uses minimal effort to stay flightworthy and flightready? No. Even the helmet needs an own engineer.

Never seen photos of F-35 parked in open hangers?

Anyways:

"To achieve an excellent strength-to-weight ratio while pushing the service temperatures into the range from 600°F to 1,000°F in newer jet engines and fifth-generation fighter aircrafts has created an upsurging demand for composite materials. Lockheed Martin’s F-35, which has incorporated high-temperature composites, is among the best-selling fifth-generation aircraft. About 35% of the aircraft is made of composites, approximately 50% of which are high-temperature composites."

What are some recent advances in high-temperature materials for jet engines? - PreScouter - Custom Intelligence from a Global Network of Experts

What new materials are in development for jet engines that can provide higher melting points and greater intrinsic strength?

www.prescouter.com

True VLO class jet fighters are composed of uncommon materials which shall increase inspection and maintenance requirements. The effort is worth it, nevertheless.

I have a question for you:

Do you stick with legacy machines for personal use in the course of your life or try to adopt new technologies when they emerge as time passes by?

No, its not twisting. Its a simple fact.

The F-35 is plagued my thousands of quality issues. Its main gun has enormous flaws and bends. The aircrafts coat boils off when she goes above 1200 km/h. The aircraft starts to desintegrate when it flys over 1200 km/h longer than 10 minutes. The aircraft needs to stand in climatized hangars and even the helmet needs its own engineers.

So far Lockheed was not able to correct those issues.

I make it plain and simple for you. Greece gets hot in the summer days and we have to cover quite a large area of airspace. The aircraft must be flightready in extreme short time spans. The aircraft must operate under corrosive environment, since there is salt in the air.

In short, the F-35 doesnt work for Greece.

The US Airforce calls the F-35 a failure:

The US Air Force Quietly Admits the F-35 Is a Failure

The Air Force has finally admitted that the F-35 is not the aircraft the military hoped it would be, though we doubt Ferrari would appreciate being compared with the F-35.

www.extremetech.com

The Air Force has announced a new study into the tactical aviation requirements of future aircraft, dubbed TacAir. In the process of doing so, Air Force chief of staff General Charles Q. Brown finally admitted what’s been obvious for years: The F-35 program has failed to achieve its goals. There is, at this point, little reason to believe it will ever succeed.

According to Brown, the USAF doesn’t just need the NGAD (Next Generation Air Dominance) fighter, a sixth-generation aircraft — it also needs a new, “5th-generation minus / 4.5th-generation aircraft.” Brown acknowledged some recent issues with the F-35 and suggested one potential solution was to fly the plane less often.

In short, the F-35 is not worth a single €. It cant protect Greece. It cant act as defensive aircraft. It has a myriad of flaws and bad production quality.

o say the F-35 has failed to deliver on its goals would be an understatement. Its mission capable rate is 69 percent, below the 80 percent benchmark set by the military. 36 percent of the F-35 fleet is available for any required mission, well below the required 50 percent standard. Current and ongoing problems include faster than expected engine wear, transparency delamination of the cockpit, and unspecified problems with the F-35’s power module.

You will always find conflicting information and interpretations on the web. It is helpful to apply 'conventional wisdom' in your judgement and how you obtain information therefore.

F-35 cannot be plagued with thousands of issues at the stage of IOC let alone FRP. No jet fighter can be 'operationalized' in demanding environments with so many issues in the first place. This is absolutely unrealistic.

Modern aircraft are increasingly complex machines. Technological leap from WW2 era designs is enormous to put it mildly. It is a challenge to develop a modern jet fighter from scratch - a country must have a significant aerospace ecosystem for the needful. Few countries tick the box in this case.

F-35 is composed of incredibly sophisticated (and complex) set of technologies. These were supposed to be revolutionary or much better than previous generation. Some of the technologies could be ported from F-22A Raptor after desired modifications but others were build from scratch. These technologies necessitated a revisit to the tooling systems in use, and programming requirements.

F-35 software code is the largest and most complex to be written for a jet fighter and its diagnostics requirements thus far. It is in this area that Pentagon is seeking a rewrite from appropriate sources for better results. Refinement is the desired course in military projects. This matter will be addressed at some point as well.

Now, do you think that F-35 is unique in terms of presenting challenges in development phase?

Every modern jet fighter has a history. Difference is that some countries are less talkative about their projects than the others.

Did you see the Chinese complain about the 'problems' they have faced while developing J-20?

There were problems in J-20 that took much time to fix. The most recent update is in the case of engine which took over a decade to replace. The latest engine is LO-compliant with serrated nozzles and more - finally.

J-20 is still WIP on some counts.

Greece might not have the kind of 'support infrastructure' needed to operationalize F-35 in the present. This matter can be resolved through negotiations with Lockheed Martin, Pentagon and White House.

well speaking of facts, the radar to be jammed has to be well within the range of the aesa radar which the YLC-8E will not be, so...rip f35 and its radars. there's a reason why the u.s. hasn't brought it even remotely close to the the Chinese and taiwanese straits...

Incorrect.

A radar system can be subjected to EW attacks as soon as it is picked up by the RWR system. Radar system(s) can also be geolocated from hundreds of KM away.

Regarding F-35, check following response:

Turkey’s Air Force Is Obsolete, Warns New Study

also until 2025 Turkish Airforce will have air superiority unmanned Fighter Jet MIUS armed with AKDOGAN long range air to air missiles similar to METEOR + AESA Radar + data link What are you saying? Turkey does not have basic BVR missile with radar guidance and yet you claim that some random...

defence.pk

The bottom line is this:

No, Passive Radar Isn't Going To Make Stealth Technology Obsolete Anytime Soon

While passive radars will become increasingly valuable pieces of advanced air defense ecosystems, they don't invalidate stealth technology.

www.thedrive.com

F-35 is very strong in the EW regime. It feature 10 x RWR antennas (way above norm) and broadband EW capabilities.

- - - -

YLC-8E is better than YJ-27A and the sort in Chinese inventory; YLC-8E is more resistant to jamming as well.

For the sake of argument, even if YLC-8E can help trace F-35 about 30% further than YJ-27A, this is noticeable improvement and worth advertisement.

China is doing PSYOPS to boost national confidence, however. They do this from time-to-time.

The most practical solution is onboard the E2-D Advanced Hawkeye (airborne platform), IMHO. This aircraft will be on the move, and can be provided an escort in the course of operations. It has a better shot at illuminating stealthy aircraft from good-enough distance(s) in the thick of battle.

China ‘Decodes’ F-22, F-35 Puzzle; Flaunts ‘World’s First Anti-Stealth Radar’ That Can Detect Stealthiest Of Aircraft

Yes, applicable. How do we know these aren't being used already? In what ways ?

defence.pk

Radar systems on the ground are more vulnerable to strikes from a well-equipped foe. Case in point:

Source: Israeli F-35 destroyed Chinese-made radar during airstrikes in Syria

Last month, an Israeli satellite imagery analysis company ImageSat confirmed that Chinese-made JY-27 radar of the Syrian Air Defense at Damascus airport destroyed by Israeli airstrikes on January 20th. No airstrike details were given and the quoted ImageSat did also not contain any further...

defence-blog.com

 

[Apollon]

The fundamental objective of stealth is to delay detection from various perspectives and create warfighting possibilities in this manner.

A great deal of science including Mathematics and Physics is involved in development of modern stealthy applications. This is largely classified work and not taught in schools.


You lost me here. A crappy jet with myraid of technical issues cannot function in technically demanding environments such as aircraft carrier(s) and deliver results in complex A2/AD environments such as Syria where Russian military is present.


Engine design and performance = important consideration

Snecma M88 (for Rafale F3R)
Military thrust = 50 kN
Afterburner thrust = 75 kN
TW ratio (Dry) = 5.68:1
TW ratio (Afterburner) = 8.52:1
OPR = 24.5:1

Pratt & Whitney F135 (for F35A/B/C)
Military thrust = 128 kN
Afterburner thrust = 191 kN
TW ratio (Dry) = 7.47:1
TW ratio (Afterburner) = 11.47:1
OPR = 28:1

- - - - -

F-35 HMD is the most advanced equipment of its kind in the world. It contains six external cameras in total, provides night vision and thermal imagery to the pilot, and also allows the pilot to see through the airframe and track targets without having to look back and forth from cockpit screen(s). It can process huge amount of information for the benefit of the pilot.

It is not casual wear, however. Well-trained technicians are involved in making sure that the F-35 HMD is good fit on a pilot.

- - - - -

Clean configuration vs. Loaded configuration? It is important to understand how a jet fighter will perform in Loaded configuration.

In the thick of combat, your ability to complete a mission is essential. It would be better for you to reduce your footprint instead of spiking it with use of afterburner(s). Towards this end, RCS reduction, Thermal reduction, Acoustics reduction, LPI sensor systems, very high degree of data fusion between onboard sensor systems, secured communication links, EW capabilities, supercruise (if available), and 'mission planning' are your best bet.

Contrary to misconceptions created by the usual suspects, F-35 is one of the most maneuverable jet fighters in the world.


Never seen photos of F-35 parked in open hangers?

Anyways:

"To achieve an excellent strength-to-weight ratio while pushing the service temperatures into the range from 600°F to 1,000°F in newer jet engines and fifth-generation fighter aircrafts has created an upsurging demand for composite materials. Lockheed Martin’s F-35, which has incorporated high-temperature composites, is among the best-selling fifth-generation aircraft. About 35% of the aircraft is made of composites, approximately 50% of which are high-temperature composites."

What are some recent advances in high-temperature materials for jet engines? - PreScouter - Custom Intelligence from a Global Network of Experts

What new materials are in development for jet engines that can provide higher melting points and greater intrinsic strength?

www.prescouter.com

True VLO class jet fighters are composed of uncommon materials which shall increase inspection and maintenance requirements. The effort is worth it, nevertheless.

I have a question for you:

Do you stick with legacy machines for personal use in the course of your life or try to adopt new technologies when they emerge as time passes by?


You will always find conflicting information and interpretations on the web. It is helpful to apply 'conventional wisdom' in your judgement and how you obtain information therefore.

F-35 cannot be plagued with thousands of issues at the stage of IOC let alone FRP. No jet fighter can be 'operationalized' in demanding environments with so many issues in the first place. This is absolutely unrealistic.

Modern aircraft are increasingly complex machines. Technological leap from WW2 era designs is enormous to put it mildly. It is a challenge to develop a modern jet fighter from scratch - a country must have a significant aerospace ecosystem for the needful. Few countries tick the box in this case.

F-35 is composed of incredibly sophisticated (and complex) set of technologies. These were supposed to be revolutionary or much better than previous generation. Some of the technologies could be ported from F-22A Raptor after desired modifications but others were build from scratch. These technologies necessitated a revisit to the tooling systems in use, and programming requirements.

F-35 software code is the largest and most complex to be written for a jet fighter and its diagnostics requirements thus far. It is in this area that Pentagon is seeking a rewrite from appropriate sources for better results. Refinement is the desired course in military projects. This matter will be addressed at some point as well.

Now, do you think that F-35 is unique in terms of presenting challenges in development phase?

Every modern jet fighter has a history. Difference is that some countries are less talkative about their projects than the others.

Did you see the Chinese complain about the 'problems' they have faced while developing J-20?

There were problems in J-20 that took much time to fix. The most recent update is in the case of engine which took over a decade to replace. The latest engine is LO-compliant with serrated nozzles and more - finally.

J-20 is still WIP on some counts.

Greece might not have the kind of 'support infrastructure' needed to operationalize F-35 in the present. This matter can be resolved through negotiations with Lockheed Martin, Pentagon and White House.


Incorrect.

A radar system can be subjected to EW attacks as soon as it is picked up by the RWR system. Radar system(s) can also be geolocated from hundreds of KM away.

Regarding F-35, check following response:

Turkey’s Air Force Is Obsolete, Warns New Study

also until 2025 Turkish Airforce will have air superiority unmanned Fighter Jet MIUS armed with AKDOGAN long range air to air missiles similar to METEOR + AESA Radar + data link What are you saying? Turkey does not have basic BVR missile with radar guidance and yet you claim that some random...

defence.pk

The bottom line is this:

No, Passive Radar Isn't Going To Make Stealth Technology Obsolete Anytime Soon

While passive radars will become increasingly valuable pieces of advanced air defense ecosystems, they don't invalidate stealth technology.

www.thedrive.com

F-35 is very strong in the EW regime. It feature 10 x RWR antennas (way above norm) and broadband EW capabilities.

- - - -

YLC-8E is better than YJ-27A and the sort in Chinese inventory; YLC-8E is more resistant to jamming as well.

For the sake of argument, even if YLC-8E can help trace F-35 about 30% further than YJ-27A, this is noticeable improvement and worth advertisement.

China is doing PSYOPS to boost national confidence, however. They do this from time-to-time.

The most practical solution is onboard the E2-D Advanced Hawkeye (airborne platform), IMHO. This aircraft will be on the move, and can be provided an escort in the course of operations. It has a better shot at illuminating stealthy aircraft from good-enough distance(s) in the thick of battle.

China ‘Decodes’ F-22, F-35 Puzzle; Flaunts ‘World’s First Anti-Stealth Radar’ That Can Detect Stealthiest Of Aircraft

Yes, applicable. How do we know these aren't being used already? In what ways ?

defence.pk

Radar systems on the ground are more vulnerable to strikes from a well-equipped foe. Case in point:

Source: Israeli F-35 destroyed Chinese-made radar during airstrikes in Syria

Last month, an Israeli satellite imagery analysis company ImageSat confirmed that Chinese-made JY-27 radar of the Syrian Air Defense at Damascus airport destroyed by Israeli airstrikes on January 20th. No airstrike details were given and the quoted ImageSat did also not contain any further...

defence-blog.com

I respect your opinion but i dont believe that this aircraft is the right choice for Greece at this time. I guess we will buy those 24 aircrafts and they end as hangar queens and cost the tax payer alot of money.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

China ‘Decodes’ F-22, F-35 Puzzle; Flaunts ‘World’s First Anti-Stealth Radar’ That Can Detect Stealthiest Of Aircraft

ByAritra Banerjee
October 6, 2021
China has recently showcased what was touted to be a revolutionary radar at the Zhuhai airshow. The YLC-8E is a significant addition to the People’s Liberation Army’s anti-stealth capabilities, a development seen as a major challenge for the US’ highly advanced F-35 and F-22 fighter jets.


The EurAsian Times had previously reported that the China Electronics Technology Group Corporation (CETC) unveiled a prototype claiming that it could identify stealth aircraft in-flight.

Going by open-source intelligence, such a technology would likely work by generating an electromagnetic (EMW) storm which would serve to acquire the location of incoming stealth aircraft.

Researchers at China’s Tsinghua University had said they intend to develop a full-sized prototype. Chinese scientists explained that high-energy quantum particles would be able to acquire targets not typically visible to radars.

However, physicist Jeffrey Shapiro, a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and a pioneer of the quantum radar idea, opined that the process is fraught with far too many technical issues for it to be of any use.

An image was posted on social media of what was speculated to be China’s YLC-8E anti-stealth radar. (via Twitter)

Nevertheless, the Chinese research team has asserted in its paper that the EMW storm led to 95 percent stealth detection. Another interesting find was that the sensitivity of the radar did not suffer despite the increase in target distance.

The quality of stealth materials also did not seem to make a difference. It was further claimed that this detection would be possible from long-distance even in arduous climatic conditions.

This development gave a clear indication of China’s intent to circumvent American stealth technology.

How YLC-8E Was Developed
The YLC-8E is the brainchild of the Chinese state-owned CETC and has been touted to be the “flagship of Chinese stealth radar”.

The device has been described as the world’s first UFH band anti-stealth radar system and also the pioneer in special high-frequency radar technology and active phase-controlled array radar coupled with a novel anti-stealth sharp device.

China’s YLC-8B anti-stealth radar.

China’s state-owned Global Times had earlier explained that the antenna of the YLC-8E is gigantic. With its high power and cutting-edge information process technology, it can detect even the most advanced stealth aircraft. It can also detect other types of targets at long range and high definition with its key parameters superior, making it superior to foreign competitors.

The YLC-8E has the basic features seen in any 4th-generation intelligence radar. It can be leveraged to provide critical combat command systems with actionable intelligence, integrate the intelligence collected, and even intercept aerial threats and hostile weapon systems. This stealth reportedly possesses independent guidance capabilities as well.

The YLC-8E is mandated with a myriad of crucial battlefield functions, including providing anti-aircraft alerts emanating from varying altitudes.

It is also responsible for aircraft guidance tasks and target search and acquisition. To surmise, the YLC-8E has been described as the “backbone of the radar network.”

Should US Be Worried?
The Chinese YLC-8E system has been marketed as a super radar capable of detecting American aircraft F-22 and F-35.

According to Song Zhongping, a Hong Kong-based military commentator and a former PLA instructor, Beijing is making technological strides in quantum-based radars and laser-based radar systems besides metric wave radars which collectively improve the military’s capabilities.

This is part of an ongoing effort to integrate the entire nation’s early warning network. China’s quest to have more advanced anti-stealth radars came as countries around the world are researching and buying stealth fighters or drones to boost their defenses. And China is attempting to ensure its airspace remains secure.

Hu Mingchun one of the directors at the Research Institute at China Electronics Technology Group told theGlobal Times – The antenna of the YLC-8E is enormous. With its high power and state-of-art information process technology, the YLC-8E can discover even the stealthiest of aircraft. It can also detect other targets at long range and high definition making it much superior to other radars.

Earlier radars often had assigned purposes, but this highly versatile radar can not only detect stealth fighter jets and other aircraft but can also be employed for early warning and artillery reconnaissance. This means that this radar can single-handedly serve the purpose of multiple radars operating concurrently, Hu added.

China ‘Decodes' F-22, F-35 Puzzle; Flaunts 'World’s First Anti-Stealth Radar' That Can Detect Stealthiest Of Aircraft

China has recently showcased what was touted to be a revolutionary radar at the Zhuhai airshow. The YLC-8E is a significant addition to the People’s Liberation Army’s anti-stealth capabilities, a development seen as a major challenge for the US’ highly advanced F-35 and F-22 fighter jets...

eurasiantimes.com

The SAAB GlobalEye as well as the Gripen C/D/E/F all have anti-stealth radars and had had so for a couple of years.

That was introduced in the MS20 version of Gripen C/D and Gripen E/F will use the same backend on the Leonardo Raven radar.

The anti-stealth technology does away with the filter on the inputs that normally removes the echos that are too small to be an aircraft.

This is a primary reason why stealth aircrafts are ”invisible”.
Without the filter, the radar backend is exposed to thousand of echoes, and existing radars are not equipped to handle this.

The PS/05 radar in Gripen C has a new backend with massively parallell structures that can handle those echoes and make sense out of them.

According to SAAB, this will increase the detection distance for stealth targets by 150%. If a stealth target is detected at 20 km by a ”normal” radar, it would be detected at 50 km by the SAAB radar.

SAAB started development of a GaN based AESA version of the PS/05 some time ago. They brought the development to a prototype beforce announcement. After that the plans was to get an order that financed the productification of the radar.
They got an order from the United States for an unspecified aircraft.

The GlobalEye development of an GaN based AESA radar with the same anti-stealth capabilities has been funded by SAAB and has been flying for years,

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

No, German radar technology is not in the top league.
The world's top radar comes from China, the USA and Russia. The second league belongs to Ukraine, the Czech Republic and Israel. Germany may be able to join the third league.

I guess you ignore the worlds first GaN based airborne radar in production...

That's your choice but don't called F35 a trash and F35 can be useful in both roles (offensive and defensive), its needs less maintain prone than F22

The F-35 is so maintenance intensive that countries may only have a single base for them. If you take out that base, the F-35s cannot operate.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

F-35 software code is the largest and most complex to be written for a jet fighter and its diagnostics requirements thus far. It is in this area that Pentagon is seeking a rewrite from appropriate sources for better results. Refinement is the desired course in military projects. This matter will be addressed at some point as well.

Now, do you think that F-35 is unique in terms of presenting challenges in development phase?

Every modern jet fighter has a history. Difference is that some countries are less talkative about their projects than the others.

Actually both the F-35 and the Gripen E has around 20-25 million lines of source code, but the Gripen E uses ”model based design”, sometimes called ”digital engineering” and the core is written in Ada.
The language is less important for Gripen, since the source code is generated from the models.

The F-35 is mostly developed in raw C++. Traditional C++ has so many issues due to people not realizing the consequences of their code.
Even Bjarne Stoustrup, the inventor of C++, does not fully understand the language. At least, that is what he has been saying himself.

The software architecture of the Gripen E is similar to the iOS in that you have a core, which contains the flight control. Then you have ”Apps”, which can be downloaded from an ”Apps” store.
As long as you do not change the core, you do not have to go through extensive, expensive and time consuming requalifications. You can upload a new version of an app to control the Meteor missile while sitting in the cockpit Between flights.
A pilot will login to his aircraft, and it is personalized according to his user settings.
A Gripen customer can use the published API to develop support for their own weapon, without SAAB getting involved.

This development process was used by SAAB-Boeing to develop the T-X trainer, and this is what made the US open their eyes to ”model based design”. This also started the discussion on rewriting the F-35 software from scratch.
The F-35 software is monolithic, so if you want to change the background colour of the screen, you need full requalification which takes months and months and million of dollars.

A different colour on the Gripen screen could be deployed in a few hours,