What's new

China Cancels Plans for Two Nuclear-Powered Super Aircraft Carriers

Reashot Xigwin

SENIOR MEMBER
Joined
Oct 20, 2012
Messages
5,747
Reaction score
0
December 7, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Asia Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: ChinaAircraft CarrierLiaoningU.S. NavyPacific

Too expensive? Seems so.

by Sebastien Roblin

China’s People’s Liberation Army Navy takes many of its cues from the U.S. Navy as it develops its carrier aviation branch. It is seeking similar flat-deck carriers to its U.S. counterpart, and has developed airborne early warning planes and electronic attack jets comparable to American E-2D Hawkeyes and EA-18 Growlers.

But that tendency may have backfired for once. That’s because the U.S. Navy has been beset by major cost overruns and delays in deploying its new generation Gerald Ford-class supercarriers due to persistent flaws in their catapults, arresting gear, radars and weapons elevators. You can read more about these many problems in an earlier article.

Similar problems apparently are affecting China’s carrier program. On November 28, Minnie Chan of the South China Morning Post reported that Beijing was scrapping plans for a fifth and sixth nuclear-powered carrier, once it finished construction of two new steam-powered vessels.

The reason? “Technical challenges and high costs,” including issues particularly linked to development of the latter two vessel’s electromagnetic launch systems—the same system bedeviling the U.S. Navy.

China’s Truncated Aircraft Carrier Program

For over a decade, China has been steadily building up plans to deploy six aircraft carriers of progressively greater capability.

China’s first carrier, the Type 001 Liaoning, was actually an old Soviet “aircraft-carrying cruiser” purchased by an ex-basketball star from Ukraine, ostensibly for use as a floating casino, and then extensively refitted into a carrier. Considerably smaller than U.S. carriers, the Liaoning features a curved ‘ski jump’ ramp that limits the fuel and weapons payload carried by her J-15 Flying Shark fighters.

The second carrier, launched in 2017—variously designated the Type 001A or Type 002—was China’s first entirely domestically built carrier, and is essentially a modestly improved Type 001.

China’s third and fourth carriers (the Type 002 or Type 003 depending on which nomenclature you prefer) are significantly larger and more capable, with flat, catapult-equipped flight decks that would allow deployment of fully combat-loaded jet fighters.

The final stage of the Chinese carrier program was two even larger flat-deck carriers using nuclear propulsion—intended essentially to be equal in capability to the U.S. Navy’s super carriers.

But rather than adopt the steam catapults used on most flat-deck aircraft carriers, Beijing was determined to steal a technological step by directly adopting next-generation electromagnetic launch systems, or EMALs—currently only featured on two new Gerald Ford class carrier.

U.S. Navy planners have long enthused that EMALs would save billions of dollars in operating costs compared to steam catapults, speed up aircraft operations 25%, and reduce wear-and-tear on aircraft by allowing the amount of impelling force to be fine-tuned according to operational needs.

But unfortunately, Pentagon testing reports revealed that EMALs remained far from mature, exhibited dramatically higher failure rates, and required excessively long times to repair due to the Ford’s distributed power system.

The catapults used by China’s third and fourth-carriers are also experiencing teething issues, according to Chan: “tests of the electromagnetic catapults used to launch the J-15, China’s only carrier-based fighter, had yet to meet the required standard.”

Chan cites a military insider in describing two other factors behind the axing of China’s plans for nuclear-powered supercarriers.

One problem is the need to develop a next-generation carrier-based stealth fighter to succeed the PLAN’s current J-15s. Indeed, there are conflicting reports as to whether China will evolve the lighter, and as yet non-operational J-31 stealth fighter for carrier operations, or develop a naval variant of the larger Chengdu J-20 stealth jet currently in service.

Chan’s source also claimed “China doesn’t possess the nuclear technology required, although it has developed many nuclear-powered submarines.” Apparently carrier’s larger scale needs pose a greater technical challenge.

Prestige versus Combat Power

Beijing may also be having second thoughts on whether springing big bucks for big carriers is the best use of its defense budget. China’s carriers greatest value may lie more in prestige, power projection against weaker adversaries, and building experience for later capability growth, rather than as deterrence against the U.S. Navy.

After all, a six-carrier PLA Navy would still be balancing against eleven higher-capability U.S. carriers. In the past, such naval imbalances in power often resulted in the weaker side’s most valuable ships staying in port rather than sallying forth into likely defeat. Consider the 17 huge Kaiser Wilhelm dreadnaughts built prior to World War I, which saw limited action because they were contained by the 29 dreadnaughts in the Royal Navy.

In a high-intensity conflict with the United States, the PLA Navy would likely struggle to use its carriers without exposing them to unacceptably high levels of risk. Cheaper but still capable surface warships and submarines, as well as land-based missiles and long-range anti-ship bombers offer the PLA Navy a more immediately useable means to contest the western Pacific against a peer adversary.

Debatably, such long-range standoff weapons threaten the future viability of even the United State’s more mature carrier fleet. Adapting supercarriers to survive against them may involve developing new long-range unmanned systems radically different from the Super Hornet and Lightning fighters in current carrier air wings.

Thus, China’s downsizing of its carrier ambitions may leave it with more time to evaluate just what the carriers of the future will really look-like—and whether they’re worth the cost.

Sébastien Roblin holds a Master’s Degree in Conflict Resolution from Georgetown University and served as a university instructor for the Peace Corps in China. He has also worked in education, editing, and refugee resettlement in France and the United States. He currently writes on security and military history for War Is Boring.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...uclear-powered-super-aircraft-carriers-103187
 
.
This is from the source of the SCMP.

Three possible reasons for the news:
(1) trade deal to limit PLAN carriers
(2) technical issues/challenges due to nuclear power
(3) fake news to fool the West

Any other explanations?
 
. .
This is from the source of the SCMP.

Three possible reasons for the news:
(1) trade deal to limit PLAN carriers
(2) technical issues/challenges due to nuclear power
(3) fake news to fool the West

Any other explanations?

The first two seem reasonable---. Just like the J31---that has been put on the back burner after the US congress openly scathed over china for stealing the F35 designs---.
 
.
This is from the source of the SCMP.

Three possible reasons for the news:
(1) trade deal to limit PLAN carriers
(2) technical issues/challenges due to nuclear power
(3) fake news to fool the West

Any other explanations?
  1. The first one is not possible. trade/economy deal and political/military are separately dealt with, which is agreed by both side(China/US)
  2. China has no interest to limit our military capability by treaty with US. US will not keep their promise anyway, why should we tie our hands?
  3. China military expenditure is still much less than US, and we will spent our money according to our budget and national interest, instead of military complex interest. So we lack interest to negotiate with US.
  4. China PPP is much larger than US, will be double of US soon. If US want an arm race, so be it, the US will lose anyway.
  5. China will develop by our own pace, regardless how US threaten us, we don't care. The US dare not to fight with Iran, dare not to fight with North Korea. I don't think US can fight with China, if they do, they will fail politically and economically.
  6. Last but not least, Nuclear powered aircraft carrier has some advantage, but not much. China can built much larger aircraft carrier if needed, power consumption is just about money. Actually traditional powered aircraft carrier can be built faster, and the capability is the almost the same as nuclear powered one.
  7. The power of oil engine and nuclear engine can be same powerful, China has developed electromagnetic propulsion with oil engine without problem.
 
Last edited:
.
yes, all those satellites will miss a town sized ship being built which can only be built on a few dedicated shipyards.

They are not going to be built until after the old type 002s are finished. That is 3 years down the road or more. So fake news is an option, fooling the West that carriers of the class of the Americans can't be done. This would ease the fears of Washington that China is going to catch up to US military by 2030 and US economy too. So 4 years of fake news on a nuclear carrier can ease tensions to allow Chinese military and economy to grow at the same rate as planned.

  1. The first one is not possible. trade/economy deal and political/military are separately dealt with, which is agreed by both side(China/US)
  2. China has no interest to limit our military capability by treaty with US. US will not keep their promise anyway, why should we tie our hands?
  3. China military expenditure is still much less than US, and we will spent our money according to our budget and national interest, instead of military complex interest. So we lack interest to negotiate with US.
  4. China PPP is much larger than US, will be double of US soon. If US want an arm race, so be it, the US will lose anyway.
  5. China will develop by our own pace, regardless how US threaten us, we don't care. The US dare not to fight with Iran, dare not to fight with North Korea. I don't think US can fight with China, if they do, they will fail politically and economically.

China has sold out North Korea in the past to keep their export economy going, they would risk some carrier production to do the same.
 
.
They are not going to be built until after the old type 002s are finished. That is 3 years down the road or more. So fake news is an option, fooling the West that carriers of the class of the Americans can't be done. This would ease the fears of Washington that China is going to catch up to US military by 2030 and US economy too. So 4 years of fake news on a nuclear carrier can ease tensions to allow Chinese military and economy to grow at the same rate as planned.



China has sold out North Korea in the past to keep their export economy going, they would risk some carrier production to do the same.
Sold out? How? North Korea did NOT follow anyone's order basically. They rule North Korea like a king, you can stop trade with them, but only the peasants will be starved to death, the king will not suffer.
It's the US, who did NOT want to destroy North Korea no matter the rhetoric they say. It's the threat from North keep South Korea licking US boots. and US would like to enjoy the situation as long as possible. There is no way North Korea can threaten US, the nukes is not a threat to US at all.
The North kings like the lives as you and me do, or even more. they enjoy the best quality life, do what they want in their little kingdom. You think they would suicide to nuke US? of course not.
China is much more angry with North Korea than US. No country like a neighbor with nukes. Just like how India hate Pakistan nukes.
 
Last edited:
.
Sold out as in not blocking UN resolutions in the Security Council.

So you are saying if China fully support North Korea when the latter was labelled an member of the fake 'Axis of Evil', that Bush/Obama and the globalists would still have funneled billions to China's multi-trillion euro growth.

No, Bush and Obama would have started a trade war against China for supporting a "terrorist regime in North Korea". What is keeping this trade war going now is that trump wants the trade war to not simply bully Beijing to abandon the North Koreans, trump wants to destroy the Chinese economy with zero benefit to China. So giving up nuclear powered carriers is an option. What dispels this argument is trump, trump is mad crazy to cripple the Chinese economy as are the trolls here. A few carriers not being produced is not enough for the crazy orange monster. So this is a possibility, but not likely with trump's fanaticism.
 
.
Sold out as in not blocking UN resolutions in the Security Council.

So you are saying if China fully support North Korea when the latter was labelled an member of the fake 'Axis of Evil', that Bush/Obama and the globalists would still have funneled billions to China's multi-trillion euro growth.

No, Bush and Obama would have started a trade war against China for supporting a "terrorist regime in North Korea". What is keeping this trade war going now is that trump wants the trade to not simply bully Beijing to abandon the North Koreans, trump wants to destroy the Chinese economy with zero benefit to China. So giving up nuclear powered carriers is an option. What dispels this argument is trump, trump is mad crazy to cripple the Chinese economy as are the trolls here. A few carriers not being produced is not enough for the crazy orange monster. So this is a possibility, but not likely with trump's fanaticism.
Come on, we hate North Korea Nuke, why should we block UN sanction? It has nothing to do with sold. we just dislike their behaviors. North Korea disrespect our interest, why should China care their interest?
It's irony, intelligent people like you did NOT fully understand the diplomacy of North Korea nuclear issue. No one can completely immune from US propaganda.

Sold out as in not blocking UN resolutions in the Security Council.

So you are saying if China fully support North Korea when the latter was labelled an member of the fake 'Axis of Evil', that Bush/Obama and the globalists would still have funneled billions to China's multi-trillion euro growth.

No, Bush and Obama would have started a trade war against China for supporting a "terrorist regime in North Korea". What is keeping this trade war going now is that trump wants the trade war to not simply bully Beijing to abandon the North Koreans, trump wants to destroy the Chinese economy with zero benefit to China. So giving up nuclear powered carriers is an option. What dispels this argument is trump, trump is mad crazy to cripple the Chinese economy as are the trolls here. A few carriers not being produced is not enough for the crazy orange monster. So this is a possibility, but not likely with trump's fanaticism.
Sold out? How? North Korea did NOT follow anyone's order basically. They rule North Korea like a king, you can stop trade with them, but only the peasants will be starved to death, the king will not suffer.
It's the US, who did NOT want to destroy North Korea no matter the rhetoric they say. It's the threat from North keep South Korea licking US boots. and US would like to enjoy the situation as long as possible. There is no way North Korea can threaten US, the nukes is not a threat to US at all.
The North kings like the lives as you and me do, or even more. they enjoy the best quality life, do what they want in their little kingdom. You think they would suicide to nuke US? of course not.
China is much more angry with North Korea than US. No country like a neighbor with nukes. Just like how India hate Pakistan nukes.
 
.
North Korea disrespect our interest,

This is because China has taken the West's position on PDRK. If the West was friendly to NK, China would trade too.

The only thing Washington does is bribe, threaten, terrorize, blackmail and bomb. That is it.
 
.
This is because China has taken the West's position on PDRK. If the West was friendly to NK, China would trade too.

The only thing Washington does is bribe, threaten, terrorize, blackmail and bomb. That is it.
You take too much rhetoric from west. The truth I can tell you is opposite.
US like North Korea. US has no intention to unify North Korea and South Korea. It's like Germany, once Germany unified, you think Germany will be licking US boots as hard as before?
China has no problem with both side, if they figure it out and unified, China is fine. The Korean Peninsula will be in China's influence sphere anyway, it's just a matter of time.
Once Korean Peninsula unified, the US will be kicked out, it will NOT happen at once, but the nationalist will do it sooner or later.
Without Korean Peninsula, Japan will lose the strategic depth. Korea was colonized by Japan, they hate Japanese more than anyone else. A stronger Korea is very bad to Japan, a out of control Korea is very bad to America.

China will lose some influence, but it's ok. A Korean Peninsula without US interference is good for China.

China hate North Nukes, but it's not a threat to China neither. US dislike North Nukes, but US enjoy the situation when South Korea need US protection. So it's dead lock.
 
.
Why are no Chinese officials correcting the story from SCMP if this is fake news? Is that normal? That is what I am unaware of: is un-refuted fake news common for such a large military project?

I can come up with some reasons to explain this SCMP article, but that is what I don't know about, internal politics in China regarding their media. I never studied that at the University.
 
.
Why are no Chinese officials correcting the story from SCMP if this is fake news? Is that normal? That is what I am unaware of: is un-refuted fake news common for such a large military project?

I can come up with some reasons to explain this SCMP article, but that is what I don't know about, internal politics in China regarding their media. I never studied that at the University.
For those who deeply understand China policy will not read SCMP at all. Their reputation is way too bad regarding military/strategic issue.

You think brainwashed HK can have intelligent strategic analysis? I can assure you, NO.

If you want to understand East Asia politics with some depth, you either read Chinese, or I can give Singapore some credit. The Singapore are ethnic Chinese also, but they managed to grow some organic intellectuals, who can understand both China and the west.

For those places penetrated by western media, their intellectuals failed to think without western social analysis framework. A good analysis should take local society history, culture, development challenge into account.

You can take India media and intellectuals for example, I do NOT see good intellectuals from India, their minds are locked.
 
.
For those who deeply understand China policy will not read SCMP at all. Their reputation is way too bad regarding military/strategic issue.

You think brainwashed HK can have intelligent strategic analysis? I can assure you, NO.

If you want to understand East Asia politics with some depth, you either read Chinese, or I can give Singapore some credit. The Singapore are ethnic Chinese also, but they managed to grow some organic intellectuals, who can understand both China and the west.

For those places penetrated by western media, their intellectuals failed to think without western social analysis framework. A good analysis should take local society history, culture, development challenge into account.

You can take India media and intellectuals for example, I do NOT see good intellectuals from India, their minds are locked.

So the reputation of SCMP is so bad that Beijing allows them to print garbage without the need to refute anything they say, for it would be a waste of time. Thanks. So this is fake news fooling some in the West about carriers that can rival American carriers, when it is likely that China is going full steam on the said carriers. Her source would be the clue if this was Chinese expert directed, unlikely. Or simply another terrible source, far more likely.
 
.
So the reputation of SCMP is so bad that Beijing allows them to print garbage without the need to refute anything they say, for it would be a waste of time. Thanks. So this is fake news fooling some in the West about carriers that can rival American carriers, when it is likely that China is going full steam on the said carriers. Her source would be the clue if this was Chinese expert directed, unlikely. Or simply another terrible source, far more likely.
hey, it has nothing to do with Beijing. It's HK media, and they can say whatever they want in HK, literally anything.
 
.

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom