China and Japan must remember the spirit of their 1978 peace treaty

[mike2000]

well its true that being united and living in peace between asias 2 largest countries will be good. However thats all wishful thinking. IMO.
Both countries simply have too much differences/hostilities towards each other to be able to achieve this. And moreover Japan is still an occupied country(almost like a U.S colony.lol) There is no critical foreign policy decision/initiative that Japan ca take without consulting/seeking approval from its patron the U.S even if its against its own interests Japan will never go against the U.S, the recent sanctions on Russia is one example/and the refusal to relinquish its claim/make a compromise with the U.S.S.R for the return of some Kuril islands back to Japan which was imposed to it by the U.S.
So china or even Russia should stop dreaming, there will be no alliance/partnership/coalition ever between them and Japan. Unless there is a revolution in Japan to kick out the U.S , but we all know it wont ever happen, since Japan is still largely favorable towards the U.S than to any other Asian country.
However if China becomes the top dog in few decades from now, then maybe things might change. Untill then you can all keep dreaming.

 

[Aepsilons]

well its true that being united and living in peace between asias 2 largest countries will be good. However thats all wishful thinking. IMO.
Both countries simply have too much differences/hostilities towards each other to be able to achieve this. And moreover Japan is still an occupied country(almost like a U.S colony.lol) There is no critical foreign policy decision/initiative that Japan ca take without consulting/seeking approval from its patron the U.S even if its against its own interests Japan will never go against the U.S, the recent sanctions on Russia is one example/and the refusal to relinquish its claim/make a compromise with the U.S.S.R for the return of some Kuril islands back to Japan which was imposed to it by the U.S.
So china or even Russia should stop dreaming, there will be no alliance/partnership/coalition ever between them and Japan. Unless there is a revolution in Japan to kick out the U.S , but we all know it wont ever happen, since Japan is still largely favorable towards the U.S than to any other Asian country.
However if China becomes the top dog in few decades from now, then maybe things might change. Untill then you can all keep dreaming.

Agreed. Japan and the United States are too integrated, now. In fact, the United States was the one encouraging Japan to take up greater military responsibilities. Our politicians in the past have been hesitant. Shinzo Abe is different. He is a nationalist.

And i think the Yanks like him , too.

 

[mike2000]

When America was worried about Japan's economic rise, they simply forced them to accept the "Plaza accord" which vastly appreciated the Yen and led to the asset-bubble crash which started Japan's lost decade, from which their economic growth has never recovered.

And now, America is also trying to force China to appreciate the Yuan massively upwards, like they did with Japan. But luckily the Chinese government is not buying it. We are conducting our economic reforms at a very slow pace, which will allow us to maintain stability and competitiveness throughout our economic shift.

The U.S never set any

This is very true, back in the 80's the US was worried Japan would overtake the American economy and set up a trap for the Japanese. Now that China is becoming a threat, they are making things worse between China and Japan. If both Asian economic giants (also the largest creditors to the US) would be having a war with each other the Americans would be the only one to benefit from it. What the US government is trying to do is delaying the rise of China through certain countries.

Reading this makes me laugh, its true the U.S wouldnt have like Japan to overtake it in the 70s and 80s. But there is nothing like a trap the U.S set to Japan. Afterall, the U.S still has military base in Japan and all but controls the country totally. Even of the U.S set a trap to Japan as you said, do you think the Japanese are so foolish as to fall into such an obvious/easy trap?
Stop blaming the U.S for everything, Japan simply had no chance of overtaking the U.S no matter the situation. Japan will have to be twice as productive as a knowledge based country like the U.S to even stand a chance of overtaking the U.S , the U.S has much more landmass,resources, manpower etc than Japan. Japan doesnt/didnt stand a chance of overtaking the U.S
However, i agree with China is different, since China dwarfs the U.S in all these points i mentioned and is still a relatively poor country, so has a large room for growth unlike Japan who has reached its optimum/peak growth/wealth. China has much more chance of obvertaking the U.S, not because the communist party is brillant or efficient or whatever, but simply because when you start from a low base down, the only direction is up. So china has to be just half as productive as Japan or the U.S to overtake/double the U.S GDP. If anything, China is still way under its potential.
The hell even India i belive will overtake Japan and the U.S in a longer term.

 

[terranMarine]

Japan has been enslaved forever

 

[armchairPrivate]

Economy is like a blob of ink dropped on a piece of rice paper. It spreads out. The bigger blob will over cover the smaller blob.

Guess which is the bigger blob?

Time is on China's side.

 

[mike2000]

Japan has been enslaved forever

call it enslave or whatever you like. But dont blame the U.,S for everything in this world. Japan afterall started the war in Asia(and massacred millions), so it has only itself to blame, not the U.S. In fact Japan should even be thankful to the U,S, since had the soviet Union or even China occupied Japan, then believe me, they wouldnt have been that nice to Japan like the U.S has been. Japan will have been divided like North and south Korea, or Vietnam before, and they would have faced a much more disastrous situation than they are at the moment. so if anything the U.S has been a benevolent master to Japan, and will keep being for a long time.
anyway i dont see Japan complain about being a quasi colony of the U,S, so theres no point in even having this discussion.

 

[terranMarine]

call it enslave or whatever you like. But dont blame the U.,S for everything in this world. Japan afterall started the war in Asia(and massacred millions), so it has only itself to blame, not the U.S. In fact Japan should even be thankful to the U,S, since had the soviet Union or even China occupied Japan, then believe me, they wouldnt have been that nice to Japan like the U.S has been. Japan will have been divided like North and south Korea, or Vietnam before, and they would have faced a much more disastrous situation than they are at the moment. so if anything the U.S has been a benevolent master to Japan, and will keep being for a long time.
anyway i dont see Japan complain about being a quasi colony of the U,S, so theres no point in even having this discussion.

What a load of crap, when did i blame the US for everything? And no China would not have occupied Japan because the Japanese forces sustained heavy damage fighting the US air/naval forces. Japan no choice but to surrender to the US after receiving 2 atomic bombs. Ofcourse Japan had the option to surrender to USSR, still it would not have been divided into 2 parts had the Russians occupied Japan. Besides i doubt the Americans would have allowed the Russians to fully occupy Japan.

 

[xunzi]

The U.S never set any



Reading this makes me laugh, its true the U.S wouldnt have like Japan to overtake it in the 70s and 80s. But there is nothing like a trap the U.S set to Japan. Afterall, the U.S still has military base in Japan and all but controls the country totally. Even of the U.S set a trap to Japan as you said, do you think the Japanese are so foolish as to fall into such an obvious/easy trap?
Stop blaming the U.S for everything, Japan simply had no chance of overtaking the U.S no matter the situation. Japan will have to be twice as productive as a knowledge based country like the U.S to even stand a chance of overtaking the U.S , the U.S has much more landmass,resources, manpower etc than Japan. Japan doesnt/didnt stand a chance of overtaking the U.S
However, i agree with China is different, since China dwarfs the U.S in all these points i mentioned and is still a relatively poor country, so has a large room for growth unlike Japan who has reached its optimum/peak growth/wealth. China has much more chance of obvertaking the U.S, not because the communist party is brillant or efficient or whatever, but simply because when you start from a low base down, the only direction is up. So china has to be just half as productive as Japan or the U.S to overtake/double the U.S GDP. If anything, China is still way under its potential.
The hell even India i belive will overtake Japan and the U.S in a longer term.

I never believe Japan had any chance or shot of overtaking the US. It is just a tactic back in the 70s and 80s to shore up American nationalism to force Japan onto its knee.

 

[mike2000]

I never believe Japan had any chance or shot of overtaking the US. It is just a tactic back in the 70s and 80s to shore up American nationalism to force Japan onto its knee.

well it might have been a tactic as you said, but i dont believe it was to put Japan at its knee per say. As i said, Japan is still a quasi colony of the U.S, the U.S still occupies it, so the U.S doesnt really needs to put it down on its knee(it already is to the U.S). so i believe it was just to shore up american nationalism and not make americans complacent. Its always good to have an external competitor/threat(even if fabricated), It helps keep the country on its toes. However, as i said before, with China its different, since its large,populous,independent,has resources, and has just started making use of its true potential. so it still has a large room for growth. This is one reason why you see our companies in the west/U.S/Japan/south Korea etc all veeing for the China market, since our capitalist companies/corporations all know the market there is huge and is still got a huge potential market which is yet to be exploited. This is one main advantage China has given its huge market/demand and a lack of ideology to export which makes it hard for the U.S to contain it(unlike the soviet Union). Unfortunately for us,this is why i believe China cant be contain.

 

[xunzi]

well it might have been a tactic as you said, but i dont believe it was to put Japan at its knee per say. Ai colony of ts i said, Japan is still a quashe U.S, the U.S still occupied it, so the U.S doesnt really needs to put it down on its knee(it already is to the U.S). so i believe it was just to shore up american nationalism and not make americans complacent. Its always good to have an external competitor/threat(even if fabricated), It helps keep the country on its toes. However, as i said before, with China its different, since its large,populous,independent,has resources, and has just started making use of its true potential. so it still has a large room for growth. This is one reason why you see our companies in the west/U.S/Japan/south Korea etc all veeing for the China market, since our capitalist companies/corporations all know the market there is huge and is still got a huge potential market which is yet to be exploited. This is one main advantage China has given its huge market/demand and a lack of ideology to export which makes it hard for the U.S to contain it(unlike the soviet Union). Unfortunately for us,this is why i believe China cant be contain.

Nope. There is certainly some threat from Japan growing stronger, gaining more influence through the West's global financial system that they become more confidence in political independent. So the US gathered its friends and try to pressure Japan into appreciating its currency and the rest is history. While there is no real threat to US's global leadership from Japan, a strong Japanese influence in the 80s is counteract to what the US was trying to build and maintain. Don't forget, in those period, Japan relationship with SK/CN was very good.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Nope. There is certainly some threat from Japan growing stronger, gaining more influence through the West's global financial system that they become more confidence in political independent. So the US gathered its friends and try to pressure Japan into appreciating its currency and the rest is history. While there is no real threat to US's global leadership from Japan, a strong Japanese influence in the 80s is counteract to what the US was trying to build and maintain. Don't forget, in those period, Japan relationship with SK/CN was very good.

The Plaza Accord was the death knell for the Japanese growth story.

Japan back then (and even today) was dependent on exports in a way China never was, China's growth story is almost entirely driven by domestic investment.

There is NO way Japan would have "voluntarily" accepted the Plaza Accord, and destroyed the foundation for their economic growth of their own free will.

America forced it on them, they had no choice to refuse it, they destroyed their own economy on America's orders, just to help revive America's long-suffering domestic industries.

They can't do the same to China, but that doesn't stop them whining about the value of the Yuan every other day. They are hoping that we will do a "Plaza Accord" to ourselves.

That will never happen. China's economic reforms will be slow and steady, for the benefit of our own economy.

 

[bolo]

The Plaza Accord was the death knell for the Japanese growth story.

Japan back then (and even today) was dependent on exports in a way China never was, China's growth story is almost entirely driven by domestic investment.

There is NO way Japan would have "voluntarily" accepted the Plaza Accord, and destroyed the foundation for their economic growth of their own free will.

America forced it on them, they had no choice to refuse it, they destroyed their own economy on America's orders, just to help revive America's long-suffering domestic industries.

They can't do the same to China, but that doesn't stop them whining about the value of the Yuan every other day. They are hoping that we will do a "Plaza Accord" to ourselves.

That will never happen. China's economic reforms will be slow and steady, for the benefit of our own economy.

China is an independent country unlike nippon.

 

[terranMarine]

Look Mike, if you truly believe the US had nothing to worry about Japanese rise during the 80's why did the Americans told the Japanese to sign the Plaza Accord? It was this Accord that led to the Japanese lost decades. Apparently the Americans thought the colony was doing a bit too well compared to the US so the Americans drafted this plan and we know how it has worked out for the slave. A master-slave relationship that's the best way to describe it

 

[mike2000]

Nope. There is certainly some threat from Japan growing stronger, gaining more influence through the West's global financial system that they become more confidence in political independent. So the US gathered its friends and try to pressure Japan into appreciating its currency and the rest is history. While there is no real threat to US's global leadership from Japan, a strong Japanese influence in the 80s is counteract to what the US was trying to build and maintain. Don't forget, in those period, Japan relationship with SK/CN was very good.

LOL well even if its true as you said that the U.S and its european subordinates pressured Japan to appreciate its currency. this just goes to shows that the U.S was/.is still Japans patron, and that Japan will basically follow the U.S policy even if its against its own interest as i said before. So you are just confirming my point that Japan is already at its knees towards the U.S. so why would the U.S be scared of Japan? The U.S is already engrained in Japanese society, its even more than a colony, since nobody in Japan will ever dare challenge the U.S on U.S core issues/interests. So there was never a Japan threat towards the U.S, it was just a fabricated threat our media created for their own personal interests.

 

[gambit]

The Plaza Accord was the death knell for the Japanese growth story.

Japan back then (and even today) was dependent on exports in a way China never was, China's growth story is almost entirely driven by domestic investment.

There is NO way Japan would have "voluntarily" accepted the Plaza Accord, and destroyed the foundation for their economic growth of their own free will.

America forced it on them, they had no choice to refuse it, they destroyed their own economy on America's orders, just to help revive America's long-suffering domestic industries.

They can't do the same to China, but that doesn't stop them whining about the value of the Yuan every other day. They are hoping that we will do a "Plaza Accord" to ourselves.

That will never happen. China's economic reforms will be slow and steady, for the benefit of our own economy.

Here you go...

IMF to China: Plaza Accord Didn’t Sink Japan - China Real Time Report - WSJ

The International Monetary Fund fired the latest salvo in its long-running campaign for faster yuan appreciation, rejecting an often-heard argument in China that a sharp rise in the yen in the 1980s led to Japan’s economic stagnation.