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Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

What the J-20 Fighter's Arrival Means for China's Power Projection Capabilities
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15:48 05.10.2017(updated 17:35 05.10.2017)

The People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has officially commissioned the Chengdu J-20 fifth-gen stealth fighter into military service, with testing underway to make the plane fully operational. In an exclusive analysis for Sputnik, Russian military observer Vasily Kashin outlines the capabilities that the new plane provides.

China has become the second country in the world after the United States to formally adopt a fifth-generation fighter plane into service. Alongside the American F-22 and F-35, and Russia's Su-57, the J-20 has brought China into a very small group of countries capable of building fifth-gen aircraft.

Last week, Defense Ministry spokesman Wu Qian confirmed that the twin-engine, single-seat jet had been "officially commissioned" into service with the PLAAF, adding that flight testing is being carried out "as scheduled."

"This is an outstanding achievement," according to military observer Vasily Kashin, "but its real impact on the combat capabilities of the PLAAF will depend on a large number of factors which are not entirely known to us," he wrote in an analysis of the new plane for Sputnik.

The analyst, a specialist Chinese military power, explained that these factors include the question of whether the Chinese aviation industry will be able to achieve a relatively high production rate for the new aircraft at an affordable price.

The history of the US effort to build fifth-gen fighters serves as a cautionary tale, Kashin noted. After all, he recalled, the high production cost of the world's first fifth-gen fighter, the US F-22 Raptor, led to the early termination of production of that aircraft.

Such things have already occurred in the Chinese military industry in the past, the analyst stressed. "It's enough to recall the story of the arrival of the first batch of JH-7 bombers into the Chinese' Navy's air force (the PLANAF), after which production of the planes was halted, and resumed only in 2004 with the advent of the more advanced JH-7A."

The navy was left dissatisfied with the JH-7's lack of precision air-to-surface strike capability, which the JH-7A remedied. The new plane also includes a stronger airframe (increasing its maximum ordnance load), improved sensor systems, electro-optics, counter-jamming, radar, flight control systems and other upgrades.

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Kashin doesn't believe that the 'base' J-20 will meet the same fate as the JH-7. Nevertheless, the observer stressed that "mastering such a complicated machine will not be an easy task for the PLAAF," particularly if global experience in the production of fifth-gen fighters is anything to go by.

Recalling again the experience of the US, the observer pointed out that the US Air Force first began purchasing F-22s in 1999 for testing and pilot training. The planes didn't reach basic combat readiness until December 2005, after which they began to be used in major drills. Reaching full combat readiness required another two years, until December 2007.

The US wouldn't deploy its F-22s in the Persian Gulf until 2009, and they wouldn't see their first combat use until 2014, when they were used to strike Daesh (ISIL/ISIS) in Syria and Iraq, in spite of the fact that the US military was involved in several wars during this period (Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya).

"The development of the second US fifth-generation fighter, the F-35, has been even more painful," Kashin added. "The US Air Force received its first batch of F-35As in 2011, but was not ready to announce their basic combat readiness until the end of 2016."

Another problem with the F-35 is its staggering cost, with an estimated total price tag in excess of $1.5 trillion dollars and climbing. Military observers call the F-35 a perfect example of what happens when engineers are given a blank check to build a miracle super plane, and then given more and more money as the military attempts to get something for the immense funds committed to the program.

Russia has faced its own problems with the Sukhoi Su-57 (formerly known as the T-50 or PAK FA), an aircraft in the active prototype stage since 2009. Making its first flight in 2010, the plane, expected to be introduced sometime between 2018 and 2019, has faced problems with the creation of a truly fifth-generation engine, instead using NPO Saturn izdeliye 117 engines, the same as those used by the 4++ generation Su-35S air superiority fighter, in the interim. Designers expect to equip the T-50 with fifth-gen izdeliye 30 engines starting in 2020.

According to Kashin, part of the problem faced by fifth-generation fighter designers worldwide is that "many of the capabilities of these planes which lead to a huge increase in costs may prove superfluous in the wars for the future."

The analyst noted, for instance, China and other powers are allocating vast resources to combatting stealth capabilities via air defense. This means that many of the technologies used by these planes to ensure low-visibility on radar will depreciate in value with the passage of time.

Furthermore, the observer pointed out that "very often, air power will be used against irregular forces and insurgents. In the fight against this kind of adversary, there is no need for the capability to cruise at supersonic speed, low visibility or powerful radar with active phased array antennae. What the aircraft will need is the ability to maintain a very high rate of combat operations –flying several combat sorties per day, without interruptions or excessive time on the ground for maintenance."

For these kinds of missions, Kashin wrote, "fifth-gen planes may lose out to older planes."

Ultimately, the analyst believes that China will be likely to continue to maintain its fleet of less expensive fourth generation aircraft, such as the J-11B and the J-11D, as the backbone of the country's air defenses. "Fourth generation planes will also be used in ground operations where the capabilities of fifth-gen aircraft are clearly redundant –for example, near China's south and southwestern borders."

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As far as the J-20 is concerned, Kashin said that for now, the PLAAN will continue to experiment with the new aircraft, "developing their own tactics for using stealth plane and, simultaneously, creating new tactics for combatting enemy stealth aircraft."
https://sputniknews.com/military/201710051057975225-j20-chinese-air-power-russian-perspective/

LOL. This is Russian "expert", Vasily Kashin, writing for the trashy Russian sputniknews wants to compare the production of J-20 with JH-7.

Why not compare J-20 with Nanchang A-5?

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If there is one country in the world, which could produce a 5-gen fighter, in large numbers, and at an affordable price, it will be China.
 
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No ... Yes, maybe a bit, but that image was already posted three or four times and is from the 81-parade showing three J-20s and three J-16s.

Ahhh, shucks! I thought it was from the July '17 parade.
That event did look like showing off new active matériels.

Thanks and good day both, Tay.
 
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LOL. This is Russian "expert", Vasily Kashin, writing for the trashy Russian sputniknews wants to compare the production of J-20 with JH-7.

He isn't comparing just mentioning what has happend in the past with the production of fighters espacially the 5th generation. You should also read where he says it won't suffer the same fate as the jh-7.
 
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When cruising subsonic, canards are stealthy as they stay level with no deflection. The aircraft's pitch control would rely on the minimum deflection of elevons.
I have said this on this forum many times over the last 8 yrs and so far, NO ONE have proved me wrong. In fact, under the current laws of nature, no one can prove me wrong.

So here goes...

In designing a 'low radar observable' body, there are three main rules:

1- Control of quantity of radiators
2- Control of array of radiators
3- Control of modes of radiation

The above maybe called 'rules' but they are more like guidelines. The body is by DEGREES OF OBEDIENCE OR COMPLIANCE rather than by violations.

Of being 'low radar observable', the sphere is considered the most obedient or compliance.

1- The sphere has only one radiator -- itself.

2- The sphere has only one array of that one radiator -- a small flat surface area facing the radar.

3- The sphere has three modes or ways on how a radar signal would leave its body -- specular, surface waves, and leaky waves.

This is why the sphere is used as a calibration body because no matter which way it is positioned, it still has the same degree of obedience to the three rules.

http://www.centurymetalspinning.com/radar-calibration-spheres/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Calibration_Sphere_1
The Lincoln Calibration Sphere 1, or LCS-1, is a large aluminium sphere in Earth orbit since 6 May 1965. It is the oldest spacecraft still in use, having lasted for over 50 years. It was launched along with the Lincoln Experimental Satellite-2 on a Titan IIIA. It is technically the oldest operational spacecraft, but it has no power supply or fuel; it is merely a metal sphere. It has been used for radar calibration since its launch.
The human body, an automobile, or an aircraft, each is considered a complex body under radar bombardment. For each body, as its orientation to the radar changes, its radar cross section ( RCS ) changes. The body can move while the radar is stationary, or vice versa, or both can move in relation to each other. But no matter which, total RCS changes. So as RCS changes, it means the body's obedience to the three rules changes.

From the rear viewing angle, the canards are not be visible to the seeking radar.

From the starboard viewing angle, the port canard is not visible to the seeking radar.

From the port viewing angle, the starboard canard is not visible to the seeking radar.

If the canard moves, its orientation changes with respect to the seeking radar, so in this case, its RCS will increase. If the canard does not move, there is still a base RCS value. This is the law of nature that you cannot change, even if you are Chinese.

The J-20 has eight major structures protruding from its main body, pairs of: wings, vertical stabilators, ventral fins, and canards.

You can have these structures covered with absorbers but that will not change the laws of nature -- that the more quantity of radiators, the higher the quantity of reflected signals. Absorbers are just one method of reduction or negation of those reflected signals. But RAM do not change the laws of nature.

The only significantly unstealthy moment, as I can see, is when maneuvering in high angle of attack, canards would need to deflect more than usual to provide proper pitch control. But I think stealth is not important then as only close distance dog fights require high AoA maneuvers, and such big deflection only happens in short moments.
This does not negate Rule 1.

At high AOA maneuvers, you already present the main body to the seeking radar, so perhaps the canards, as they could be visible at the same time, does not matter much, if any at all. It is like looking at a plate, so why bother with looking at a couple of minor protrusions from that plate ?

But depending on viewing angle at BVR ranges, the less compliance you are to Rule 1, the greater your vulnerability at being seen first.

I am not expert, but if the canard can return significant radar return, won't the main wing return huge radar return?

I seen some wrote that is bacause the canard's significant radar is due to refelection from its perpendicular position retaltive to fuselage, but if you observe carefully, this is not the case for J20's canard's positioning.
Then see Rule 2: Control of ARRAY of radiators.

The word 'array' means how these structures are in a layout in relations to each other. The closer they are to each other, the greater the interactions of reflected signals between structures. These interactions are either 'destructive interference' or 'constructive interference'.

Destructive -- good.
Constructive -- bad.

With constructive interference, there is a higher contribution to final RCS.

That is why Rule 1 says you should minimize the QUANTITY of radiators whenever feasible.

...the RCS discussion is pointless and leads nowhere ... this has been debated for 6 years to no avail.
You are wrong. The RCS issue is not pointless because most people, yourself included, are generally ignorant on even basic radar detection principles, thereby producing misleading arguments.
 
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LOL. This is Russian "expert", Vasily Kashin, writing for the trashy Russian sputniknews wants to compare the production of J-20 with JH-7.

He isn't comparing just mentioning what has happend in the past with the production of fighters espacially the 5th generation. You should also read where he says it won't suffer the same fate as the jh-7.
Sputnik is complete garbage. Their "expert", Vasily Kashin, is the go to person for all things military for basically all nations. Russia wants to badmouth the J-20 because they know their Su-57 hasn't gotten very far ... :(
 
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