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Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

I must've watched two different videos, ma bro. :D To me, it looked like the J-20 took about 10 seconds compared to the F-22 which looked like it took 11.5 seconds to take off. Still -- advantage J-20! lol --. What do you consider the point of "taking off" the instant it lifts its front gear, or the instant the main landing gear lifts off the runway? I used the front gear. There does seem to be a longer lag time to get all wheels off the ground in the F-22 than the J-20, for sure.

BTW, on a separate note re. the article you posted, I'm trying to see what the author was referring to when he mentioned a lightly redesigned radome in the new J-20 with the WS-15 engines but I can't see anything. Do you or @Deino or @siegecrossbow or @LKJ86 notice anything different? I thought immediately that he was referring to the stealth ridges on the chin of the radome and maybe they made them a little sharper or more pronounced than the original ones, but hard to really tell. Any ideas from anyone?

View attachment 970241


So nice must see twice!
So I had to capture & crop it! :victory:

View attachment 970267

It almost looks like it has a pair of big truck exhaust stacks coming out from behind the canards lol, the way those vortices look like they're blowing exhaust smoke.

I know hard comparisons depend on many variables and given the secrecy surrounding both aircrafts, but in your opinion, how do you rate the J-20 compared to the F-22?
 
I know hard comparisons depend on many variables and given the secrecy surrounding both aircrafts, but in your opinion, how do you rate the J-20 compared to the F-22?
Low observability: F-22 > J-20
Maneuverability: F-22 > J-20
Speed: F-22 > J-20
Supercruise: F-22 > J-20 (Currently), F-22 = J-20 (with WS-15 engines)
Range: J-20 > F-22
Payload: J-20 > F-22
Sensors: J-20 > F-22
Information Fusion: J-20 > F-22
 
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Low observability: F-22 > J-20
Maneuverability: F-22 > J-20
Speed: F-22 > J-20
Supercruise: F-22 > J-20 (Currently), F-22 = J-20 (with WS-15 engines)
Range: J-20 > F-22
Payload: J-20 > F-22
Sensors: J-20 > F-22
Information Fusion: J-20 > F-22

Weapon Package?
 
Weapon Package?
Likely J-20 due to greater variety of ammunition that are developed later. Stealing a pic of a model from this place:


1699388334423.png
 
I know hard comparisons depend on many variables and given the secrecy surrounding both aircrafts, but in your opinion, how do you rate the J-20 compared to the F-22?

IMO and simply put, I would say the F-22 has a slight edge overall. And I base that strictly objectively. We also have more available data & information about the F-22 than we do about the J-20 so like you said, it's difficult to accurately rate the difference.

But taking @S10 's list, I'd agree with most of it. The only things I might disagree with are the radar and sensor fusion. He lists "Sensors" & "Information Fusion" whereas I would put the radar in the sensor category and sensor fusion in the Information Fusion category.

The AN/APG-77 has just about the same number of modules as the KLJ-5, between 1,900 and 2,000 each. Both are X-band AESA and range is almost identical @ roughly 150km including angles @azimuth etc.

The only thing I really can't speak of since I don't know much about without access to credible data is the PL-10, PL-12 & PL-15. The PL-17 & PL-22 are not fielded yet from what I know. Has there been any publicized testing of any of those? Because then we can compare to the AIM-9X and AIM-120D/AIM-260 of which we do have published credible data.

A2G munitions I would give the edge to the F-22.
Raptor:1000lb JDAM & GBU-39B Small Diameter Bomb AND IT HAS A GUN - M61A1 Vulcan Gattling Gun Cannon. :D
Black Eagle: LS-6/50 kg and LS-6/100 kg Small-diameter precision-guided bomb
No gun.

Sensor fusion & avionics suite are impossible to rate. That is one of the most-classified systems that no one can know except those who manufacture the aircraft and those who fly them. When they perform the duties of electronic warfare & countermeasures and spoofing and things of that sort, that stuff is always OPSEC and kept secret as to the true capabilities for obvious reasons.

Bottom line, both are pretty killer fighters and a fun thing to do would be to take a pole and see which one comes out on top! 🙂
 
IMO and simply put, I would say the F-22 has a slight edge overall. And I base that strictly objectively. We also have more available data & information about the F-22 than we do about the J-20 so like you said, it's difficult to accurately rate the difference.

But taking @S10 's list, I'd agree with most of it. The only things I might disagree with are the radar and sensor fusion. He lists "Sensors" & "Information Fusion" whereas I would put the radar in the sensor category and sensor fusion in the Information Fusion category.

The AN/APG-77 has just about the same number of modules as the KLJ-5, between 1,900 and 2,000 each. Both are X-band AESA and range is almost identical @ roughly 150km including angles @azimuth etc.

The only thing I really can't speak of since I don't know much about without access to credible data is the PL-10, PL-12 & PL-15. The PL-17 & PL-22 are not fielded yet from what I know. Has there been any publicized testing of any of those? Because then we can compare to the AIM-9X and AIM-120D/AIM-260 of which we do have published credible data.

A2G munitions I would give the edge to the F-22.
Raptor:1000lb JDAM & GBU-39B Small Diameter Bomb AND IT HAS A GUN - M61A1 Vulcan Gattling Gun Cannon. :D
Black Eagle: LS-6/50 kg and LS-6/100 kg Small-diameter precision-guided bomb
No gun.

Sensor fusion & avionics suite are impossible to rate. That is one of the most-classified systems that no one can know except those who manufacture the aircraft and those who fly them. When they perform the duties of electronic warfare & countermeasures and spoofing and things of that sort, that stuff is always OPSEC and kept secret as to the true capabilities for obvious reasons.

Bottom line, both are pretty killer fighters and a fun thing to do would be to take a pole and see which one comes out on top! 🙂

Thanks for the pretty detailed and comprehensive answer.

I find it incredibly that even though the Chinese are catching up to the US in terms of aviation technology, that the US is pretty far ahead, probably a generation or two, especially in terms of propulsion and information fusion. At the end of the day, the F-22 is a plane conceived in the 1980s & built in the 1990s. A full decade and half older than the J-20 but still ahead in two critical categories.
 
I must've watched two different videos, ma bro. :D To me, it looked like the J-20 took about 10 seconds compared to the F-22 which looked like it took 11.5 seconds to take off. Still -- advantage J-20! lol --. What do you consider the point of "taking off" the instant it lifts its front gear, or the instant the main landing gear lifts off the runway? I used the front gear. There does seem to be a longer lag time to get all wheels off the ground in the F-22 than the J-20, for sure.

BTW, on a separate note re. the article you posted, I'm trying to see what the author was referring to when he mentioned a lightly redesigned radome in the new J-20 with the WS-15 engines but I can't see anything. Do you or @Deino or @siegecrossbow or @LKJ86 notice anything different? I thought immediately that he was referring to the stealth ridges on the chin of the radome and maybe they made them a little sharper or more pronounced than the original ones, but hard to really tell. Any ideas from anyone?

View attachment 970241


So nice must see twice!
So I had to capture & crop it! :victory:

View attachment 970267

It almost looks like it has a pair of big truck exhaust stacks coming out from behind the canards lol, the way those vortices look like they're blowing exhaust smoke.

The WS-15 has an afterburner thrust of 185 KN, and a TWR close to 11.

The F119 has an afterburner thrust of 156 KN (177 KN without the 2D TVC nozzle), and a TWR close to 11.

The WS-15 was developed about 15 - 20 years later than the F119, so it makes sense it is slightly superior in performance.

China has started the ground test for the 6th gen VCE engine back in 2017, and its code name is Jomolangma (Mount Everest), The code name for the WS-15 is Mount Emei.

The 6th gen VCE engine will be the main battleground between China and the US, and I predict both countries will fly its prototype around 2025 - 2030.
 
IMO and simply put, I would say the F-22 has a slight edge overall. And I base that strictly objectively. We also have more available data & information about the F-22 than we do about the J-20 so like you said, it's difficult to accurately rate the difference.

But taking @S10 's list, I'd agree with most of it. The only things I might disagree with are the radar and sensor fusion. He lists "Sensors" & "Information Fusion" whereas I would put the radar in the sensor category and sensor fusion in the Information Fusion category.

The AN/APG-77 has just about the same number of modules as the KLJ-5, between 1,900 and 2,000 each. Both are X-band AESA and range is almost identical @ roughly 150km including angles @azimuth etc.

The only thing I really can't speak of since I don't know much about without access to credible data is the PL-10, PL-12 & PL-15. The PL-17 & PL-22 are not fielded yet from what I know. Has there been any publicized testing of any of those? Because then we can compare to the AIM-9X and AIM-120D/AIM-260 of which we do have published credible data.

A2G munitions I would give the edge to the F-22.
Raptor:1000lb JDAM & GBU-39B Small Diameter Bomb AND IT HAS A GUN - M61A1 Vulcan Gattling Gun Cannon. :D
Black Eagle: LS-6/50 kg and LS-6/100 kg Small-diameter precision-guided bomb
No gun.

Sensor fusion & avionics suite are impossible to rate. That is one of the most-classified systems that no one can know except those who manufacture the aircraft and those who fly them. When they perform the duties of electronic warfare & countermeasures and spoofing and things of that sort, that stuff is always OPSEC and kept secret as to the true capabilities for obvious reasons.

Bottom line, both are pretty killer fighters and a fun thing to do would be to take a pole and see which one comes out on top! 🙂
I only marginally gave speed advantage to F-22 since J-20 currently in service are equipped with WS-10/AL-31. That will become a toss up once WS-15 completes its trials.

J-20's radar was developed nearly 2 decades after AN/APG-77 and takes advantage of developments not available at the time of ATF. It features a larger dimension which should be able to accommodate more T/R modules than AN/APG-77, not to mention a capable EOTS system similar to F-35 to augment its detection capabilities. Its avionics are known to be enhanced with AI assist. The larger airframe of J-20 also provides more room for future upgrades.

In terms of air to air weapons, PL-15 outranges current AIM-120D by a significant margin and PL-10 has similar performance to AIM-9X. You cite AIM-260, but it has not been confirmed to be in service as of today. J-20 has a slightly larger weapon bay which could theoretically house munition with greater range and variety compared to F-22. And then you have this:

1699417591004.png


The WSO in the back will control multiple low observable UCAVs to perform strike missions. These drones will fly ahead of J-20S and scan for threats, relaying the data to paint a complete battlefield picture.
 
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BTW, on a separate note re. the article you posted, I'm trying to see what the author was referring to when he mentioned a lightly redesigned radome in the new J-20 with the WS-15 engines but I can't see anything. Do you or @Deino or @siegecrossbow or @LKJ86 notice anything different? I thought immediately that he was referring to the stealth ridges on the chin of the radome and maybe they made them a little sharper or more pronounced than the original ones, but hard to really tell. Any ideas from anyone?

View attachment 970241


Yes there is something available …

1699424115711.jpeg



for the side I need to look (PS/edit ... got it)

1699424100118.jpeg
 
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Why we never seem to bear in mind the most important factor?

When shit hits the fan , truly hits the fan, where will be the bases, and shape of bases that going to send out J-20s and the F-22s ?

Or those planes can fight without the bases and carriers and AWACs? in skys populated with PL-12s PL-15s?
And can work fine with only pep talk from Geriactic Joe and his pet Uncle Tom and Rainbow outfit who might not even know which toilet to go to?

The commanders of DFs and cruise missiles be doing nothing but to twiddle thumbs blissfully unaware of bases in Japan and Okinawa and Philipine and Taiwan and Singapore?
 
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The WS-15 has an afterburner thrust of 185 KN, and a TWR close to 11.

The F119 has an afterburner thrust of 156 KN (177 KN without the 2D TVC nozzle), and a TWR close to 11.

The WS-15 was developed about 15 - 20 years later than the F119, so it makes sense it is slightly superior in performance.

China has started the ground test for the 6th gen VCE engine back in 2017, and its code name is Jomolangma (Mount Everest), The code name for the WS-15 is Mount Emei.

The 6th gen VCE engine will be the main battleground between China and the US, and I predict both countries will fly its prototype around 2025 - 2030.
China flying a 6th gen fighter engine in 2025 is quite epic. In fact, even 2032 is quite epic and breakthrough
 
China flying a 6th gen fighter engine in 2025 is quite epic. In fact, even 2032 is quite epic and breakthrough

The development of the 6th gen VCE engine will be smoother than the WS-15.

And the WS-10 was by far the one that suffered with most setbacks, it was because China wasn't a mature jet engine developer during that time.
 
The development of the 6th gen VCE engine will be smoother than the WS-15.

And the WS-10 was by far the one that suffered with most setbacks, it was because China wasn't a mature jet engine developer during that time.


Would you please be so kind and reply to this post?


I know we don’t have always the same opinion but it is always most interesting and inspiring to discuss with you.
 
Thanks for the pretty detailed and comprehensive answer.

I find it incredibly that even though the Chinese are catching up to the US in terms of aviation technology, that the US is pretty far ahead, probably a generation or two, especially in terms of propulsion and information fusion. At the end of the day, the F-22 is a plane conceived in the 1980s & built in the 1990s. A full decade and half older than the J-20 but still ahead in two critical categories.

Indeed. What China has accomplished in the aviation field is nothing short of miraculous. Miraculous in the sense that it's brought about by sheer will and effort, not by accident.

And those two categories I mentioned are not different in a significant way and I also could be wrong about them. But I do try and take every detail possible into account.

The WS-15 has an afterburner thrust of 185 KN, and a TWR close to 11.

The F119 has an afterburner thrust of 156 KN (177 KN without the 2D TVC nozzle), and a TWR close to 11.

I remember seeing infographs on the statistics of the both engines and actually do remember them. The WS-15s AB thrust was around 178 kN but that's not significantly different from your 185, so no argument from me.

The F-119s thrust of 156 kN you listed is at sustained supersonic speed or super cruise not at afterburner ma bro. I don't believe its AB rating is publicly available to tell you the truth, at least I haven't seen actual or even semi-official data on its max. AB rating. But most credible info out there has it guesstimated a between 165–174 kN range. I'd say best case scenario it's right up there with the WS-15.

China has started the ground test for the 6th gen VCE engine back in 2017, and its code name is Jomolangma (Mount Everest), The code name for the WS-15 is Mount Emei.

Hahaha, that is cool! Love those names. Those names couldn't be better since developing an engine is akin to climbing the highest mountain, only 100 x harder! :D

J-20's radar was developed nearly 2 decades after AN/APG-77 and takes advantage of developments not available at the time of ATF. It features a larger dimension which should be able to accommodate more T/R modules than AN/APG-77, not to mention a capable EOTS system similar to F-35 to augment its detection capabilities. Its avionics are known to be enhanced with AI assist. The larger airframe of J-20 also provides more room for future upgrades.

Good points, I agree with everything except I don't put too much stock into AI-assisted technology, at least not now in its infancy. There's a reason why it's "artificial" and only assists in ways that humans have programmed it to do. Not saying it's useless by any means, just not a huge advantage.

As far as a larger airframe, there are some advantages and certainly some disadvantages, particularly if the initial design was primarily focused on stealth features. Having greater fuel capacity by sacrificing low observability is a bit counterproductive. But it seems the designers of the J-20 realized that and accepted the sacrifice for the sake of prioritization the jet's mission parameters.

At the same time, the F-22 has IFR to compensate for the requirements of additional fuel. As far as I know, there hasn't been any published photos of the J-20 actually performing in-flight refueling that I know of, are there? Do we know if this is in fact the retractable IFR probe for the J-20 or is the bottom pic a photoshop? If it does, does anyone have a better pic showing the IFRP?

1699467706057.png


In terms of air to air weapons, PL-15 outranges current AIM-120D by a significant margin and PL-10 has similar performance to AIM-9X. You cite AIM-260, but it has not been confirmed to be in service as of today. J-20 has a slightly larger weapon bay which could theoretically house munition with greater range and variety compared to F-22.

True on the AIM-260. I should've been clearer in that it's expected to be operational in 2026. But the weapons advantage still goes to the Raptor since it carries 8 missiles to the J-20's 6. Some might think that's not a big deal, but that is a huge difference, especially in A2A combat. Not only having the 2 additional missiles, but back to my original gripe about the gun which also gives the Raptor the advantage. Those are super critical areas of consideration.

But this here in this pic, is nothing short of outstanding! That's been one of my favorite features on the Black Eagle. Not only having a side bay, but being able to open the bay door, pop the missile out and close the door while keeping the missile racked up is just great.

1699468389352.png


Some would say oh having the missile racked up outside the fueselage ruins its stealth but what they don't realize is that those two side bays are for the short range PL missiles. So using them is within short ranges and within short ranges, the importance of stealth is negligable, at best. So IMO, that is a great feature because in anticipation of a close combat engagement, he can rack up the two missiles and not have to worry about the time it takes for the doors to open and fire the missile. This, IMO, is hardly unimportant but the opposite, a huge advantage.

1699417591004.png


The WSO in the back will control multiple low observable UCAVs to perform strike missions. These drones will fly ahead of J-20S and scan for threats, relaying the data to paint a complete battlefield picture.

When the J-20B first came out, first thing I thought was I'm glad it still looks great! Usually the 2-seat variants end up looking like ugly ducklings, but that thing is sweet. I am wondering why the radome seems a bit smaller though, and if that is the result of a new radar perhaps. I guess we'll soon find out.
 
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