Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Asoka]

Indeed it's true! If any member here compares the mod's works by Deino with, let say, the other Eng defence forum so-called the SDF, a Tampa, FL-hosted site, see how the single-handedly managed iron-fist is applied there by one mod I think that's why PDF is more vibrant and is a more active site.... hence, my choice of stay.

And let it be that way. Thank you for every one who helps make it an enjoyable stay here.

Btw, Asok, thanks for your many interesting posts, though some truths may not be known until long in the future or may simply be never known, some of your persistent & lengthy expositions still provide the reading interests (though I ain't agree with your rants against the FC-31).
Cheers, have a nice day!

Thanks samsara, I find your comment is well balanced and much appreciated. We are here to entertain each other and further our interests in military affairs. Despite our disagreements over WS-15, I do think Deino is doing a decent service for us.

"(though I ain't agree with your rants against the FC-31)."

I don't like this plane one bit. But I have always been wondering why it exist at all. If PLAAF is not interested in it, the chance of being a successful export product is next to zero. There is no fighter plane that were exported, but not used by its own country.

Now that I appreciate the Art of Deception more, I advance this outrageous theory/speculation that this plane is a distraction or decoy. It's been more than 4 years now, but it has flew only a few times.

It might have the purpose of creating the impression/perception that China is going to produce two thousands of them as High/Low mix with J-20, and J-20 will stop production at 200 units, just like F-22.

There are many Chinese fanboys at various Forum who are vigorously pushing this High/Low mix "setup". At first, I totally dismiss them as ignorant. Now, I am thinking may be they are working, unknowingly, for China's Bureau of Strategic Deception.

Now that J-20 is going into LRIP and mass production soon. China needs to hide its true production target number with more lies/deception/misinformation/disinformation, so it won't prompt US to restart F-22 production soon.

I just thought of it. Don't take me too seriously. If it turned out to be true, it's diabolically genius. I don't think the Chinese are this deviously clever.

That is a great gesture!

To me, a forum is a venue where members share, exchange information, idea and most of all minus the trolls.

So a moderator should judiciously filtered out the unwanted elements without the perception of being biased.

Well. It is easier said than done.

Thanks CAPRICORN-88! We could disagree and stay civilized. After all, this is a internet military affair forum for popular entertainment, not some cut throat arena.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong in adopting the core technology of a product which was based on very sound engineering and design e.g. German Dr Felix Wankel designed the rotary engine but it was the Japanese Mazda that perfected it.

Whether it is in the PW F119 or its evolved F135 or the WS-15 variants, there are no doubt that they are all heavily influenced by Russian R79-300 engine and the core technologies are drawn from it.

As for the so-called Technology Transfer from Russia to China, this was probably what happened?
We all know that both AMNTK Soyuz of Sukhoi, they are all Russia SOE and they were all cash-scrapped and needed to survive the crisis. They did not have any new fund for further development, so they were forced to and reluctantly sold off these design to both China and USA in exchange for cash.

So they probably told the Chinese: "Here are the blueprints and a finish prototype model. Take it and sort it out yourself."

So R79-300 ended up in USA as the evolved F119 and F135 and in China as the evolved WS-15 emei. Certainly NOT a bolt to nut copy as some may like to imagine.

In histories, NO developed countries have ever really transfer their technologies to other nation.

Yes. The story by the Chief designer sums it all. Yes. Designing and building aero-engine is NO easy task.
For China it has been tedious and heartbreaking learning process. Although China has been involved in constructing aero-engine since the 1950's and it was only quite recent that they achieved breakthrough and success e.g. China is now the second nation in the world apart from USA that has successfully designed and manufactured hollow section crystal blades.

In fact the construction of aero-engine involving many related, strategic and critical technologies apart from good design and a pool of experienced aeronautical engineers, scientists, machinists, technicians, etc. example metallurgy, powder intrusion machine, high capacity forging press, etc. Mind you. No advanced nations will ever sell them to them.

The 10 storey tall 80,000-ton press forge in Deyang, Sichuan. How can any nation hope to be an aerospace nation e.g. Indonesia, etc without the related technology to build one of these very expensive machine?

Remember, in the 1990's, China was struggling with WS-10 (TWR 8), with absolutely no help from US, in fact the military embargo stopped all military cooperation. The chance of successfully complete WS-10 was bleak.

And here we have this, powerful (>200kN thrust) Russian R79-300 engine , available for sale, with complete blueprints, and documentations, and even the designers were for available for hiring.

Would China jump on this God sent gift and develop its own TWR 10 engine?

You bet!

Yep, these types of domain are accumulative rather than brainstorming.

Since the US still holds these accumulative domains because decades of legacy after the cold war, but lacking those brainstorming geniuses. When you invest in the brand new technology, you need those brainstorming types of scientists.

Yup, you can take a leap of imagination and design a TWR 15 engine in a computer, but if you don't have the material, process, and manufacturing techniques to go with it, you are not going to make it.

 

[Tiqiu]

Deino, I do apologize for my argumentative manners. I have not given you enough credit for running this thread in a manner that is actually pretty good. I actually appreciate your hard work and time put into this thread and PDF forum. Please accept my apology. --Asok.

Well done, Aosk. As I said a while ago Deino did a good job, it requires lots of patience,effort and time(even sleep time) to manage this forum.

Please don't feel that way, personally I think you did a good job in many things.

And some words to @Deino if you could please allow me:
The worst assumption is assumption itself.
I understand sometimes you might feel some Chinese members were attacking your lacking of the Chinese language skills rather than your arguments. And I understand that some Chinese members were regarding you as one more Gorden Chang type of China-basher. Of course I maybe wrong since I am relatively a new member here. I think this misperception from both sides may caused by the simple fact that English is second language for all of us, we are all not very comfortable to do a thorough and skillful writing to cover all we wanted to cover.

Allow me to give your one example to illustrate what it means:
Not long ago I upload this image tying to show that J-20 were deployed to Dingxin base.

Here is what you replied

NO, the first image shows a J-11B assigned to the 175. Brigade and the image below shows several MKK from the 18. Division .. completely different units.

Actually I am aware of 20796 is D18's; I assumed People would understand "金头盔大赛" (Golden Helmet Competition- jets of different military units fly in to compete),I merely wanted to point out that the J-20 would do some war game at Dingxin base.

As you can see in this case,the sparklers for potential conflict was just laziness or a lack of effort to explain more. Thus I think to make lives easy for all of us in the future, we all ought to try to give others the benefit of doubts before blowing off. We should all remember " Animosity builds upon error"

 

[Deino]

Well done, Aosk. As I said a while ago Deino did a good job, it requires lots of patience,effort and time(even sleep time) to manage this forum.



And some words to @Deino if you could please allow me:
The worst assumption is assumption itself.
I understand sometimes you might feel some Chinese members were attacking your lacking of the Chinese language skills rather than your arguments. And I understand that some Chinese members were regarding you as one more Gorden Chang type of China-basher. Of course I maybe wrong since I am relatively a new member here. I think this misperception from both sides may caused by the simple fact that English is second language for all of us, we are all not very comfortable to do a thorough and skillful writing to cover all we wanted to cover.

Allow me to give your one example to illustrate what it means:
Not long ago I upload this image tying to show that J-20 were deployed to Dingxin base.

Here is what you replied


Actually I am aware of 20796 is D18's; I assumed People would understand "金头盔大赛" (Golden Helmet Competition- jets of different military units fly in to compete),I merely wanted to point out that the J-20 would do some war game at Dingxin base.

As you can see in this case,the sparklers for potential conflict was just laziness or a lack of effort to explain more. Thus I think to make lives easy for all of us in the future, we all ought to try to give others the benefit of doubts before blowing off. We should all remember " Animosity builds upon error"

Thanks for this comment and it's exactly what I meant; I can only concur. Thanks again !

 

[Asoka]

China's turbofan engine is like its supercomputing domain, it got no superstar leading scientists like Professor Ma or Professor Pan, but it can still blow out of people's expectation.

Just look at the achievement of Taihulight, then the turbofan engine is going to do the same.

Well done, Aosk. As I said a while ago Deino did a good job, it requires lots of patience,effort and time(even sleep time) to manage this forum.



And some words to @Deino if you could please allow me:
The worst assumption is assumption itself.
I understand sometimes you might feel some Chinese members were attacking your lacking of the Chinese language skills rather than your arguments. And I understand that some Chinese members were regarding you as one more Gorden Chang type of China-basher. Of course I maybe wrong since I am relatively a new member here. I think this misperception from both sides may caused by the simple fact that English is second language for all of us, we are all not very comfortable to do a thorough and skillful writing to cover all we wanted to cover.

Allow me to give your one example to illustrate what it means:
Not long ago I upload this image tying to show that J-20 were deployed to Dingxin base.

Here is what you replied


Actually I am aware of 20796 is D18's; I assumed People would understand "金头盔大赛" (Golden Helmet Competition- jets of different military units fly in to compete),I merely wanted to point out that the J-20 would do some war game at Dingxin base.

As you can see in this case,the sparklers for potential conflict was just laziness or a lack of effort to explain more. Thus I think to make lives easy for all of us in the future, we all ought to try to give others the benefit of doubts before blowing off. We should all remember " Animosity builds upon error"

Yup, I am guilty of laziness in quoting my sources. I am not writing a scholarly paper that requires vigorous listing of all sources of information. I often, I just write my comments, and assuming others have the same background informations as I am. So I don't bother to show where I got them.

For example, it is well known to many Chinese that China hired thousands of experts from former USSR to help with the military technology, and China also brought many hardwares from USSR. I assumed people here at PDF are also aware that. So I didn't list any sources that China got a lot of technical help from Russia for the WS-15 project.

In fact, both the West and China hired many Russian and Ukraine scientists after the fall of USSR.

I worked in a US Defense Contractor Company, which makes command control coordination and communication equipment (C4) for Pentagon. I was surprised to see so many Russian PH.Ds there. The fact that they could obtain Top Secret Clearance testify their skills were in demand even in US.

 

[samsara]

The 10 storey tall 80,000-ton press forge in Deyang, Sichuan. How can any nation hope to be an aerospace nation e.g. Indonesia, etc without the related technology to build one of these very expensive machine?

Curious about what can be the possible applications of such giant press forging machine, I searched around and found this old yet still relevant article.

---------

Under Pressure: The 10-Story Machine China Hopes Will Boost Its Aviation Industry.

By Dinny McMahon - China Real Time Report - The Wall Street Journal (2014-12-03)

In April last year (2013), Erzhong Group published a photo of its new, 80,000 ton hydraulic press forge, the biggest of its kind in the world.

DEYANG, China – The engineers started closing the rollerdoor the moment they saw a foreigner walking toward them.

Standing around laughing in blue overalls and yellow hard hats, they went quiet the moment I started walking up the drive. I asked if I could take a peek behind the door. They said it was a secret.

Still, I managed to catch a glimpse of two floors’ worth of the 10-story-tall machine Beijing hopes will play a major role in driving China’s aviation and aerospace industries: an 80,000-ton closed-die hydraulic press forge.

Repeated requests for a tour of the forge were declined. Both Zhang Jian, the head of propaganda at Erzhong Group, the company that built and operates the forge, and Wang Yu, the secretary of the board of directors of Erzhong’s Shanghai-listed unit, said that the forge is “confidential.”

It’s not immediately clear what about the machine – which is painted green with Erzhong Group printed across it in red Chinese characters – is so secret.

The machine is the biggest of its kind in the world. The biggest forge in the U.S. can exert only 50,000 tons of pressure, and is operated by Alcoa in Ohio. France has a 65,000-ton machine, and Russia has a machine capable of exerting 75,000 tons of pressure.

But the technology China is using is nothing new. It is based on modifications of Russian designs from the 80s, according to a person involved in the development process.

More sensitive is what China can potentially do with it.

Press forging involves shaping a piece of metal under high pressure by squeezing it into a mold. That alters the flow of the metal’s grain – its internal structure – allowing engineers to create stronger and lighter components than would be possible by just beating them into shape or welding them together. Greater pressure results in stronger components.

The Erzhong forge can exert up to 80,000 tons of downward pressure using five columns. Flipped upside down, it could lift China’s Liaoning aircraft carrier, with room to spare for a handful of submarines. Airbus is using the Russian forge to make landing gear components for the A380, the world’s biggest passenger plane. Having the world’s biggest forge should allow China to produce large components of higher strength than possible elsewhere.

The technology was pioneered during WWII by Germany, which didn’t have a sufficient supply of steel and so had to mold its air force out of more brittle, but lighter metals, according to Tim Heffernan, a writer who has researched the U.S. forge program. The end of the war brought the start of the jet age, and the U.S. government provided support for the building of forges around the country, so that the country was able to produce light planes that were sufficiently strong to withstand supersonic speeds.

Alcoa’s forge has been producing parts for Boeing and Airbus for decades. The company says it supplies forged wheel and brake components for almost all U.S. military aircraft and helicopters, including the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the U.S. military’s newest fighter jet.

Erzhong hasn’t explicitly said what the forge will be used for, but academics involved in its development process said there are potential military applications.

The first component produced by the forge at its official launch in April last year was the landing gear for the C919, China’s long-awaited and much behind schedule narrow-bodied passenger aircraft being built by the Commercial Aircraft Company of China.

Since then, though, the forge hasn’t gotten much use. People at the company say that there haven’t been many orders.

Note: A previous version of this post said that Alcoa makes almost all wheel and brake components for U.S. military aircraft and helicopters. It has since been corrected.

~~~~~~~~~~~

I really doubt that in recent years that giant press forging machine has been sitting in any lackluster fashion, lacks of orders... ha ha ha... the author had too early the verdict!

=======================

Here's another article by FRANCE-METALLURGIE; however, this article seems to be a machine-translated one into English thus its readability is rather challenging yet it contains some interesting info.

China’s 80,000-ton press forge almost ready for use (US) – FRANCE-METALLURGIE

By Metallurgist (2013-03-18)

"In Dec 2007, China started the building of an 80,000-ton press forge (800MN heavy die forging press) in Deyang, the southwestern Sichuan Province. The press will be ready by Jan 2013."

"China in fact, has long been determined to produce large press. In 1975, some proposal was submitted to the then State Planning Commission on the construction of large forging hydraulic press base, and has been approved. However, due to the limited conditions, only completed the design and prototype manufacturing, the ultimate goal has not been achieved. After 30 years, the absence of large presses, had severely constrained the development of China’s aerospace industry."

"Deputy chief engineer Chen Xiaoci to reporters cited other important uses of the press: the gas turbine with a large wheel forgings, flue gas turbine with a large wheel forgings, all kinds of engine blades, large marine die forgings, power stations, large die forgings, pressure vessel forgings, as well as other types of civilian goods production die forgings are inseparable press. In the past, China has no large press, the production of large forgings by casting or free forging method. Due to high material consumption, and the lack of precision, resulting in some forgings have to be imported. Construction of the press, will make the production of a number of artifacts by casting into forging by free forging into forging, so that product quality would be enhanced. Chen Xiaoci said 80,000 tons the press wholly owned independent intellectual property rights. After the unremitting efforts of several generations, Chinese manufacturing enterprises and research institutes in the overall structure and technical aspects of the press to achieve a breakthrough, he said. Technically there is no big obstacle, simply modern control techniques applied to large presses. However, the construction of 80,000 ton press, after all, is a large and complex system engineering, there are still some key technologies needed to overcome."

 

[Asoka]

Well done, Aosk. As I said a while ago Deino did a good job, it requires lots of patience,effort and time(even sleep time) to manage this forum.



And some words to @Deino if you could please allow me:
The worst assumption is assumption itself.
I understand sometimes you might feel some Chinese members were attacking your lacking of the Chinese language skills rather than your arguments. And I understand that some Chinese members were regarding you as one more Gorden Chang type of China-basher. Of course I maybe wrong since I am relatively a new member here. I think this misperception from both sides may caused by the simple fact that English is second language for all of us, we are all not very comfortable to do a thorough and skillful writing to cover all we wanted to cover.

Allow me to give your one example to illustrate what it means:
Not long ago I upload this image tying to show that J-20 were deployed to Dingxin base.

Here is what you replied


Actually I am aware of 20796 is D18's; I assumed People would understand "金头盔大赛" (Golden Helmet Competition- jets of different military units fly in to compete),I merely wanted to point out that the J-20 would do some war game at Dingxin base.

As you can see in this case,the sparklers for potential conflict was just laziness or a lack of effort to explain more. Thus I think to make lives easy for all of us in the future, we all ought to try to give others the benefit of doubts before blowing off. We should all remember " Animosity builds upon error"

"Well done, Aosk. As I said a while ago Deino did a good job, it requires lots of patience,effort and time(even sleep time) to manage this forum."

I do think Deino was prompt in stopping irrelevent comments and postings to this thread.

Curious about what can be the possible applications of such giant press forging machine, I search around and found this old yet still relevant article.

---------

Under Pressure: The 10-Story Machine China Hopes Will Boost Its Aviation Industry.

By Dinny McMahon - China Real Time Report - The Wall Street Journal (2014-12-03)

In April last year (2013), Erzhong Group published a photo of its new, 80,000 ton hydraulic press forge, the biggest of its kind in the world.

DEYANG, China – The engineers started closing the rollerdoor the moment they saw a foreigner walking toward them.

Standing around laughing in blue overalls and yellow hard hats, they went quiet the moment I started walking up the drive. I asked if I could take a peek behind the door. They said it was a secret.

Still, I managed to catch a glimpse of two floors’ worth of the 10-story-tall machine Beijing hopes will play a major role in driving China’s aviation and aerospace industries: an 80,000-ton closed-die hydraulic press forge.

Repeated requests for a tour of the forge were declined. Both Zhang Jian, the head of propaganda at Erzhong Group, the company that built and operates the forge, and Wang Yu, the secretary of the board of directors of Erzhong’s Shanghai-listed unit, said that the forge is “confidential.”

It’s not immediately clear what about the machine – which is painted green with Erzhong Group printed across it in red Chinese characters – is so secret.

The machine is the biggest of its kind in the world. The biggest forge in the U.S. can exert only 50,000 tons of pressure, and is operated by Alcoa in Ohio. France has a 65,000-ton machine, and Russia has a machine capable of exerting 75,000 tons of pressure.

But the technology China is using is nothing new. It is based on modifications of Russian designs from the 80s, according to a person involved in the development process.

More sensitive is what China can potentially do with it.

Press forging involves shaping a piece of metal under high pressure by squeezing it into a mold. That alters the flow of the metal’s grain – its internal structure – allowing engineers to create stronger and lighter components than would be possible by just beating them into shape or welding them together. Greater pressure results in stronger components.

The Erzhong forge can exert up to 80,000 tons of downward pressure using five columns. Flipped upside down, it could lift China’s Liaoning aircraft carrier, with room to spare for a handful of submarines. Airbus is using the Russian forge to make landing gear components for the A380, the world’s biggest passenger plane. Having the world’s biggest forge should allow China to produce large components of higher strength than possible elsewhere.

The technology was pioneered during WWII by Germany, which didn’t have a sufficient supply of steel and so had to mold its air force out of more brittle, but lighter metals, according to Tim Heffernan, a writer who has researched the U.S. forge program. The end of the war brought the start of the jet age, and the U.S. government provided support for the building of forges around the country, so that the country was able to produce light planes that were sufficiently strong to withstand supersonic speeds.

Alcoa’s forge has been producing parts for Boeing and Airbus for decades. The company says it supplies forged wheel and brake components for almost all U.S. military aircraft and helicopters, including the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the U.S. military’s newest fighter jet.

Erzhong hasn’t explicitly said what the forge will be used for, but academics involved in its development process said there are potential military applications.

The first component produced by the forge at its official launch in April last year was the landing gear for the C919, China’s long-awaited and much behind schedule narrow-bodied passenger aircraft being built by the Commercial Aircraft Company of China.

Since then, though, the forge hasn’t gotten much use. People at the company say that there haven’t been many orders.

Note: A previous version of this post said that Alcoa makes almost all wheel and brake components for U.S. military aircraft and helicopters. It has since been corrected.

~~~~~~~~~~~

I really doubt that in recent years that giant press forging machine has been sitting in any lackluster fashion, lacks of orders... ha ha ha... the author had too early the verdict!

Typical reporters who don't know much. I often wonder what courses do they need to study to get their Journalist degree.

Those giant press forging machine are required for making components which required very high tensile strength, like marine engine axle, airplane bulkheads, and landing gears.

 

[Tiqiu]

Yup, I am guilty of laziness in quoting my sources. I am not writing a scholarly paper that requires vigorous listing of all sources of information. I often, I just write my comments, and assuming others have the same background informations as I am. So I don't bother to show where I got them.

For example, it is well known to many Chinese that China hired thousands of experts from former USSR to help with the military technology, and China also brought many hardwares from USSR. I assumed people here at PDF are also aware that. So I didn't list any sources that China got a lot of technical help from Russia for the WS-15 project.

In fact, both the West and China hired many Russian and Ukraine scientists after the fall of USSR.

I worked in a US Defense Contractor Company, which makes command control coordination and communication equipment (C4) for Pentagon. I was surprised to see so many Russian PH.Ds there. The fact that they could obtain Top Secret Clearance testify their skills were in demand even in US.

It is so true. Many are among the first to receive the Chinese green card. Actually, it was said the start of the green card in China is because of them.

 

[Deino]

By the way - and maybe we can try not to divert too much into indudstry high-lights - but are there any new images of these 78027x-birds ??

I know only a handfull and several of them only showng parts or the serials are psed .... so come on, there MUST be better images !!!

Deino

 

[Tiqiu]

By the way - and maybe we can try not to divert too much into indudstry high-lights - but are there any new images of these 78027x-birds ??

I know only a handfull and several of them only showng parts or the serials are psed .... so come on, there MUST be better images !!!

Deino

Considering the bellicosity from the brass on both sides of the Pacific Ocean, we can expect to see more images very soon.

 

[Deino]

Considering the bellicosity from the brass on both sides of the Pacific Ocean, we can expect to see more images very soon.

 

[Ultima Thule]

I have been saying WS-10X and AL-31FN are not powerful enough to give J-20 Supersonic Cruise capability, because those planes already used them can't do it.

Mr @Asok J-20 may be using higher thrust versions WS-10X or AL-31FN3, Just like GE F-110 GE 129 with a thrust of 29,400 lbs upgraded to F-110 GE 132 with a thrust of 32,500 lbs, with a thrust of 35,000, 36,000 lbs from highly upgraded and higher thrust versions of WS-10X or AL-31FN3 J-20 can easily super-cruise without afterburner

 

[CHINA83NEWS]

Mr @Asok J-20 may be using higher thrust versions WS-10X or AL-31FN3, Just like GE F-110 GE 129 with a thrust of 29,400 lbs upgraded to F-110 GE 132 with a thrust of 32,500 lbs, with a thrust of 35,000, 36,000 lbs from highly upgraded and higher thrust versions of WS-10X or AL-31FN3 J-20 can easily super-cruise without afterburner

Suggest you look at Chinese BBS.Says now that the engine is qualified and reliable solutions.After the success of the WS15 could see a whole new j-20.

 

[Deino]

Doesn't this look familiar ???? ... even more familiar that any WS-10 ?

via that video: http://www.bilibili.com/video/av4336546/index_4.html

via: http://bbs.meyet.com/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=321328&pid=3760143

... at around 21:40+++

 

[ChineseLuver]

@Deino
Is that a Chinese plant and what engines are those,Taihang's?

 

[Deino]

@Deino
Is that a Chinese plant and what engines are those, Taihang's?

No, these are clearly not WS-10; IMO these are even more clearly AL-31FN of some sort, even if I don't know how old are these images. But what puzzles me , it does not look like the factory in Russia.