Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[gambit]

Look at the multi-colors of the petals.

The blue color is indicative of continuing use. These 'petals' are often designed to be interchangeable from engine design to engine design, not just from engine to engine of the same design.

The operating temperature, even at the highest throttle setting, are well below the melting point of the metal, assuming this is a composite material. Over time and usage, the metal will change its steady state color to that blue-ish tint. This characteristic should not be used to speculate what kind of engine is in what airplane.

 

[Asoka]

The blue color is indicative of continuing use. These 'petals' are often designed to be interchangeable from engine design to engine design, not just from engine to engine of the same design.

The operating temperature, even at the highest throttle setting, are well below the melting point of the metal, assuming this is a composite material. Over time and usage, the metal will change its steady state color to that blue-ish tint. This characteristic should not be used to speculate what kind of engine is in what airplane.

"These 'petals' are often designed to be interchangeable from engine design to engine design, not just from engine to engine of the same design."

I agreed. No need to reinvent everything just because you want a new engine. It's the Engine Core that counts.

"These 'petals' are often designed to be interchangeable from engine design to engine design, not just from engine to engine of the same design."

I agreed. No need to reinvent everything just because you want a new engine. It's the Engine Core that counts.

"This characteristic should not be used to speculate what kind of engine is in what airplane."
Agreed. I find compare the engine petals are a wasting of time. It's not conclusive.

 

[grey boy 2]

J-20 has a really good chance to have a formal induction ceremony around 10 days

 

[Beast]

J-20 has a really good chance to have a formal induction ceremony around 10 days

We got to show it to the Japanese, China is the first Asian countries to have induct fifth gen fighter, not Japan.

 

[Tiqiu]

"This characteristic should not be used to speculate what kind of engine is in what airplane."
Agreed. I find compare the engine petals are a wasting of time. It's not conclusive.

Totally agreed. But some still do not want to accept it.

But some still do not want to accept it.

If you meant to say that some of us will not want to accept your final verdict that J-20 is powered by AL-31FN based on your digital graphic analyst skills on the images of the engines used by J-20 sourced only from the Chinese internet sites, then surly you can count me as some of them.

It seemed you don't see the flaws in your methods, your analysis is solely based on the images and translations supplied by the Chinese internet posters, which can be misleading and inconclusive, since all images are on the net because they are approved by the authorities to be there, and many times the time of publishing on the net does not necessarily mean the time of taken of those images. Plus you have a weak point of not mastering the Chinese language. Without the ability to read all publishing,news coverage etc about a subject matter, how can you be so confident in forming your final conclusion? Other factors such as those accounts made in relation to its vertical climb and loud sounds bear no relevance/significance in your methods?

Two of the J-20 jets flew over dignitaries, industry executives and spectators and gathered at the show's opening ceremony during a 60-second flypast. Source: dailymail

In this image made from video, the J-20 stealth fighter pulls a sharp incline to a a crowd of spectators and dignitaries at the Zhuhai airshow. Source: dailymail


After the J-20 debut demo flight, no western analyst dare to claim that J-20 is fully relied on the Russian engines any more as they usually did before. Now instead of emphasizing that engine is the wake point for the Chinese jets, the changed to other lines such as espionage, lack of stealth, lack of sensor&network integration capabilities and so on. Why weren't they using your simple a-picture-is-worth-than-a-thusand-word methods in their analyzing? Were they too ignorant?

I think you need to consider to brief these guys who commented about J-20 on main western publishing in wake of the recent J-20 demo flight. For instance, guys like Greg Waldron, Asia Managing Editor of FlightGlobal, who claimed:"
'I think we learned very little. We learned it is very loud. But we can't tell what type of engine it has, or very much about the mobility". Or this guy Justin Bronk, a Research Fellow specializing in combat airpower at the Royal United Services Institute, who pointed out that the aircraft most likely flew with underpowered engines, and not the engines that would fly on the final version. “Engine performance is a key function of any aircraft. China and Russia continue to lag behind because of the really top end manufacturing processes you need” to create and tune high quality aircraft engines".

Some simply never give up ... in a certain way also admirable !

The colour simply changes due to the heat during use ad the older an exhaust is, the much more different the colour is:

View attachment 357797


What however remains the same, is their overall shape of the pedals. In the J-20 the engine is simple a bit more buried within the fuselage.

View attachment 357796

But some still do not want to accept it.

The image you used under J-10C is wrong, it is still a J-10B. Any J-10C will be powered by this type of FWS10s (the engines at bottom picture). Any planes powered by other type (above picture) are all J-10B, regardless the difference in their antenna/RAW profiles.
So yes I ll say it again that the bottom image is J-10C. Let's put it on record to see who is right.

 

[randomradio]

Totally agreed. But some still do not want to accept it.

If you meant to say that some of us will not want to accept your final verdict that J-20 is powered by AL-31FN based on your digital graphic analyst skills on the images of the engines used by J-20 sourced only from the Chinese internet sites, then surly you can count me as some of them.

It seemed you don't see the flaws in your methods, your analysis is solely based on the images and translations supplied by the Chinese internet posters, which can be misleading and inconclusive, since all images are on the net because they are approved by the authorities to be there, and many times the time of publishing on the net does not necessarily mean the time of taken of those images. Plus you have a weak point of not mastering the Chinese language. Without the ability to read all publishing,news coverage etc about a subject matter, how can you be so confident in forming your final conclusion? Other factors such as those accounts made in relation to its vertical climb and loud sounds bear no relevance/significance in your methods?
View attachment 357844
Two of the J-20 jets flew over dignitaries, industry executives and spectators and gathered at the show's opening ceremony during a 60-second flypast. Source: dailymail

View attachment 357843
In this image made from video, the J-20 stealth fighter pulls a sharp incline to a a crowd of spectators and dignitaries at the Zhuhai airshow. Source: dailymail


After the J-20 debut demo flight, no western analyst dare to claim that J-20 is fully relied on the Russian engines any more as they usually did before. Now instead of emphasizing that engine is the wake point for the Chinese jets, the changed to other lines such as espionage, lack of stealth, lack of sensor&network integration capabilities and so on. Why weren't they using your simple a-picture-is-worth-than-a-thusand-word methods in their analyzing? Were they too ignorant?

I think you need to consider to brief these guys who commented about J-20 on main western publishing in wake of the recent J-20 demo flight. For instance, guys like Greg Waldron, Asia Managing Editor of FlightGlobal, who claimed:"
'I think we learned very little. We learned it is very loud. But we can't tell what type of engine it has, or very much about the mobility". Or this guy Justin Bronk, a Research Fellow specializing in combat airpower at the Royal United Services Institute, who pointed out that the aircraft most likely flew with underpowered engines, and not the engines that would fly on the final version. “Engine performance is a key function of any aircraft. China and Russia continue to lag behind because of the really top end manufacturing processes you need” to create and tune high quality aircraft engines".


The image you used under J-10C is wrong, it is still a J-10B. Any J-10C will be powered by this type of FWS10s (the engines at bottom picture). Any planes powered by other type (above picture) are all J-10B, regardless the difference in their antenna/RAW profiles.
So yes I ll say it again that the bottom image is J-10C. Let's put it on record to see who is right.
View attachment 357845

So which engine does the J-20 have? WS-10X or WS-15? And which one is the definitive engine?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

So which engine does the J-20 have? WS-10X or WS-15? And which one is the definitive engine?

More evidence points toward the WS-15, but China still wants to keep eating more humble pies, so the official media claims it to be the WS-10X. And the AF-31FM2 is definitely out, since no military pundit willing to accept it.

 

[Asoka]

Totally agreed. But some still do not want to accept it.

If you meant to say that some of us will not want to accept your final verdict that J-20 is powered by AL-31FN based on your digital graphic analyst skills on the images of the engines used by J-20 sourced only from the Chinese internet sites, then surly you can count me as some of them.

It seemed you don't see the flaws in your methods, your analysis is solely based on the images and translations supplied by the Chinese internet posters, which can be misleading and inconclusive, since all images are on the net because they are approved by the authorities to be there, and many times the time of publishing on the net does not necessarily mean the time of taken of those images. Plus you have a weak point of not mastering the Chinese language. Without the ability to read all publishing,news coverage etc about a subject matter, how can you be so confident in forming your final conclusion? Other factors such as those accounts made in relation to its vertical climb and loud sounds bear no relevance/significance in your methods?
View attachment 357844
Two of the J-20 jets flew over dignitaries, industry executives and spectators and gathered at the show's opening ceremony during a 60-second flypast. Source: dailymail

View attachment 357843
In this image made from video, the J-20 stealth fighter pulls a sharp incline to a a crowd of spectators and dignitaries at the Zhuhai airshow. Source: dailymail


After the J-20 debut demo flight, no western analyst dare to claim that J-20 is fully relied on the Russian engines any more as they usually did before. Now instead of emphasizing that engine is the wake point for the Chinese jets, the changed to other lines such as espionage, lack of stealth, lack of sensor&network integration capabilities and so on. Why weren't they using your simple a-picture-is-worth-than-a-thusand-word methods in their analyzing? Were they too ignorant?

I think you need to consider to brief these guys who commented about J-20 on main western publishing in wake of the recent J-20 demo flight. For instance, guys like Greg Waldron, Asia Managing Editor of FlightGlobal, who claimed:"
'I think we learned very little. We learned it is very loud. But we can't tell what type of engine it has, or very much about the mobility". Or this guy Justin Bronk, a Research Fellow specializing in combat airpower at the Royal United Services Institute, who pointed out that the aircraft most likely flew with underpowered engines, and not the engines that would fly on the final version. “Engine performance is a key function of any aircraft. China and Russia continue to lag behind because of the really top end manufacturing processes you need” to create and tune high quality aircraft engines".


The image you used under J-10C is wrong, it is still a J-10B. Any J-10C will be powered by this type of FWS10s (the engines at bottom picture). Any planes powered by other type (above picture) are all J-10B, regardless the difference in their antenna/RAW profiles.
So yes I ll say it again that the bottom image is J-10C. Let's put it on record to see who is right.
View attachment 357845

"who pointed out that the aircraft most likely flew with underpowered engines, and not the engines that would fly on the final version"

This is a common comments from many westerners. But do tell us which video show the plane is underpowered from its first appearance in 2011.

More evidence points toward the WS-15, but China still wants to keep eating more humble pies, so the official media claims it to be the WS-10X. And the AF-31FM2 is definitely out, since no military pundit willing to accept it.

China wants to keep WS-15 highly classified, because, it wants to hide one vital performance parameter (it's maximum military power and maximum afterburner power). From these parameters and weight, foreign experts can calculate many other parameters like range, rate of climb, maximum speed, cruising speeds. . . .I expect WS-15's true performance to be keep secret for many years to come.

This WS-15's Core Engine is derived from the YAK-141's engine, the amazing R179-300, which could develop an absolutely astounding maximum thrust of between196 and 206 kN and a thrust to weight ratio of 11-12, the highest in any fighter aircraft engine. This engine was developed in the 1990's.

Imagine what China could do now with this design 30 years later with new materials, new processes, and new manufacturing techniques.

This is why China don't want to disclose the true performance of WS-15 to scare US into re-open the F-22 production line. US has made a big mistake by closing down the production and bet on the fat flying pig, F-35.

 

[Tiqiu]

So which engine does the J-20 have? WS-10X or WS-15? And which one is the definitive engine?

According to those seemed knowing a thing or two, some J-20 use FWS10B( a hybrid engine derived from FWS10A and FWS15 technology by Plant 410) and some use an early/interim model of FWS15 ( a pure blood FWS15 core technology engine developed by another Plant 460). Accordingly FWS10B can twist its vectoring nozzle as much as 10 degrees and unknown about FWS15.

"who pointed out that the aircraft most likely flew with underpowered engines, and not the engines that would fly on the final version"

This is a common comments from many westerners. But do tell us which video show the plane is underpowered from its first appearance in 2011.

I got your point and have the same feelings as yours.
However, you may have misread me. All I was trying to say is that people can't judge a book by its cover, unless many images of these are available.........

 

[Asoka]

According to those seemed knowing a thing or two, some J-20 use FWS10B( a hybrid engine derived from FWS10A and FWS15 technology by Plant 410) and some use an early/interim model of FWS15 ( a pure blood FWS15 core technology engine developed by another Plant 460). Accordingly FWS10B can twist its vectoring nozzle as much as 10 degrees and unknown about FWS15.

I got your point and have the same feelings as yours.
However, you may have misread me. All I was trying to say is that people can't judge a book by its cover, unless many images of these are available.........
View attachment 357876

Where are the rest of these ultra high resolution pictures? Amazing clarity.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

This is why China don't want to disclose the true performance of WS-15 to scare US into re-open the F-22 production line. US has made a big mistake by closing down the production and bet on the fat flying pig, F-35.

It is not that easy to re-open the production line of the F-22.

The US is already intending to re-open it, but all supply chains have been disbanded for over 4 years, it needs time to restore everything.

To all people who don't believe J-20 is using WS-15:

Are you saying J-20 version 2101 is using AL-31FN?

Do you really think the PLA Air Force would going LRIP with two unreliable and underpowered Russian AL-31FN engines on J-20?

Some believe WS-15 is just entered bench testing in 2015.

Don't you think when WS-15 is ready in 5-7 years, testing on J-20 would need to be done all over again for another 5 years?

That would put J-20's fully combat ready service date in meaningful numbers, 10-12 years from now, that is 2026-2028.

If PLAAF roll out J-20 with unreliable and underpowered AL-31FN, 24 planes per years, in ten years, there will be 240 planes.

Don't you think they all need to go back into the factory for major rework and heavy modifications in order to install the WS-15 on them?

Do you really think putting a new and entirely different and much more powerful engine onto a 5th generation fighter is like loosen a few screws and pop in the new engines?

Do you really think the PLAAF is really going to happy with 240 of their premier 5th generation fighters equipped with AL-31FN for next 10 years?

Do you know those AL-31F-like engines on the yellow J-20?

These engines look clearly different from the engines spotted on the J-20 in the Zhuhai show 2016.

 

[Asoka]

It is not that easy to re-open the production line of the F-22.

The US is already intending to re-open it, but all supply chains have been disbanded for over 4 years, it needs time to restore everything.



Do you know those AL-31F-like engines on the yellow J-20?

These engines look clearly different from the engines spotted on the J-20 in the Zhuhai show 2016.

China has fooled US into closing the F-22 production line by keeping them in the dark about the progress of J-20, so when it debuted in 2011 it was shocking to the world. But the production was already closed.

If they want to re-open the production line, it will take 5+ years and billions that they don't have. They have bet the future on F-35. If they start produce F-22, they will need to update the Avionics to the class of F-35. That may not possible except REDO the whole system, since the F-22's electronic is designed in the 1990's.

With every year passing, it will be harder and harder to re-open the production line. So it is wise for China not to show the true capability of WS-15 and J-20 so they will not be alarmed into taking action.

The more half-truths and disinformations for WS-15 and J-20 to keep the opponent confused, is the better for China. With more F-35 built, the safer is for the world and China. It will give them this useless plane and soak up their budget.

赤卫QianBaiHua 11月29日
［谁说不是矢量？］航展后杜局直言歼20使用国发，有消息称使用了改装的太行WS10B；看了不少写真，发现了喷口有明显的矢量特征：喷口明显偏转，收敛片与机体外壳的间隙不均匀，收敛片之间的调节间隙也不均匀；偏角虽不如117S大，但是否说明太行B改使用的是轴对称小角度矢量呢？

Do you still believe J-20 uses AL-31FN?
Look at the gap between nozzle and the saw tooth skin, they are clearly narrowed and the nozzles was turned up.

 

[Beast]

I believe the engine used on J-20 currently is hybrid of WS-10 tech and AL-31F with much superior metallurgy. The reason for not disclosing the engine and data might be due to IP right of AL-31F or antagonised the Russian again with IP issue again since there is a Sino Russo alliance going on.

Remember the video I posted abt AVIC chairman talking about WS-10 Taihang engine has a massive issue which the engineer that time believe 下马. Is the only solution for Taihang engine. Surely only design problem will warrant a cease production call.

Lin Zuoming did not disclose much how he overcome the taihang problem. I believe his solution is not fully RE AL-31F but by borrowing some of the proven design of it and implement on Taihang engine to make it work or success. That is why China don't want to talk too much about this new hybrid engine.

 

[Asoka]

According to those seemed knowing a thing or two, some J-20 use FWS10B( a hybrid engine derived from FWS10A and FWS15 technology by Plant 410) and some use an early/interim model of FWS15 ( a pure blood FWS15 core technology engine developed by another Plant 460). Accordingly FWS10B can twist its vectoring nozzle as much as 10 degrees and unknown about FWS15.

I got your point and have the same feelings as yours.
However, you may have misread me. All I was trying to say is that people can't judge a book by its cover, unless many images of these are available.........
View attachment 357876

I agreed with your assesment. The early engine of J-20 is hybrid of FWS-15 engine core and FWS-10B outer parts for quick prototyping. I think it was deliberately leaked that its a WS-10X, instead of calling it WS-15, to confuse foreign intelligences. In aircraft engine, it is the core that develops the power and takes the longest time to produce and perfect.

The WS-15 engine core project was initiated in 1990, and the engine core started running in 2000, and it finally passed acceptance test in 2005.

A total of 15 years. The complete WS-15 engine project was initiated in 2006, and this early model was delivered to install on J-20 on early 2010. A total of 4 years.

It took another 4-5 years of flying and testing before the engine was matured and fully integrated into J-20.

From 1990 to 2016, it took 26 years to develop WS-15 and J-20.

China had learned the lessons in the hard way when developing J-10 and WS-10. We know the engine takes a lot longer to develop and mature than the airframe, so it must start early to get a head start.

WS-15 was started at least full 10 years ahead of J-20. And better management paid off.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

China has fooled US into closing the F-22 production line by keeping them in the dark about the progress of J-20, so when it debuted in 2011 it was shocking to the world. But the production was already closed.

If they want to re-open the production line, it will take 5+ years and billions that they don't have. They have bet the future on F-35. If they start produce F-22, they will need to update the Avionics to the class of F-35. That may not possible except REDO the whole system, since the F-22's electronic is designed in the 1990's.

With every year passing, it will be harder and harder to re-open the production line. So it is wise for China not to show the true capability of WS-15 and J-20 so they will not be alarmed into taking action.

The more half-truths and disinformations for WS-15 and J-20 to keep the opponent confused, is the better for China. With more F-35 built, the safer is for the world and China. It will give them this useless plane and soak up their budget.

赤卫QianBaiHua 11月29日
［谁说不是矢量？］航展后杜局直言歼20使用国发，有消息称使用了改装的太行WS10B；看了不少写真，发现了喷口有明显的矢量特征：喷口明显偏转，收敛片与机体外壳的间隙不均匀，收敛片之间的调节间隙也不均匀；偏角虽不如117S大，但是否说明太行B改使用的是轴对称小角度矢量呢？

Do you still believe J-20 uses AL-31FN?
Look at the gap between nozzle and the saw tooth skin, they are clearly narrowed and the nozzles was turned up.

View attachment 357950 View attachment 357951 View attachment 357952 View attachment 357953 View attachment 357954

This J-20 engine is clearly Chinese, I was talking the earlier one on the yellow skinned J-20, not the current one we have now.