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Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

Please ignore the troll. I attract trolls like flies to honey.

As a troll, his goal is the same. He keeps provoking you to respond and my latest post on the F-35 gets pushed into the back pages where no guests to this forum will read it, because they won't know it exists.

The trolls always come out when I put up a significant post with important information. Just starve the troll and he'll go away.

You know he's a troll, because I'm not giving you my rhetorical opinion. I am quoting an expert and I've highlighted the sentences that I believe are important. I am merely suggesting you read them and form your own opinion.

I spent hours on my last informative F-35 post. I collected the relevant information, edited out unimportant paragraphs, copied the pictures and adjusted their color, brightness, and contrast; and highlighted important passages. He doesn't want others to read it. Don't enable him.

Thank you everyone.
 
nope, i lurk, and have been seeing some CDFers posting, you guys made a splash with the J-20 photos there
and people like i.e that's the one that we should respect

I enjoy i.e.'s comments as well. Do you know johnq?
 
Dear moderator,

Please move the troll Laowai's posts to a different thread. Personal complaints about me are not relevant to China's J-20 Mighty Dragon.

Please delete posts #393-#401. They are all irrelevant to this thread and only clutter it.

Thank you.

Best regards,

Martin

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I've also filed a formal complaint against the new member Laowai for flooding this thread with posts irrelevant to China's J-20 Mighty Dragon. I also don't appreciate personal attacks against me, because they are irrelevant to this thread and it is an overt attempt to flood it.
 
The original X-35 was a stealthy design. The current F-35 SDD AA-1 is a "much inferior contoured design, clearly intended to accommodate the larger weapon bays."

This is a familiar story. The X-35 was well-designed to meet the original military specifications (e.g. "bomb truck"). The military changed its mind and Lockheed had to drastically alter its design to accommodate the new military specifications (of an air superiority fighter) to carry a larger weapons load. This compromised the F-35 stealth design.
Nothing wrong with meeting customer's requirements.

In the SDD design, the beam/side aspect radar signature is especially problematic, due to the presence of multiple specular reflecting shapes, specifically due to singly and doubly curved lower fuselage surface feature shaping. The Joint Strike Fighter has a complex lower fuselage shape as well as a wing and fuselage lower join shape, unlike any other aircraft designed with stealth in mind, refer preceding images. The result of this design choice is that the beam/side aspect Radar Cross Section will be closer in magnitude to a conventional fighter flown clean than a “classical” stealth aircraft.This is an inevitable result of clustering no less than nine unique convex specular scattering shapes in the lower hemisphere of the aircraft. Diagram 3 illustrates this.
Fair enough. This so-called 'analysis' was done back in 2009. Today, we can compare the F-35's and the J-20's frontal aspects with respect to lateral radar impingement for better illustration. Keep in mind we are using Kopp's own standards...

f-35_j-20_front.jpg


Whatever is good for the goose, it is equally good for the gander, as the Americans say. Looks like the J-20 does not depart much from the F-35 and therefore would fail Kopp's own standards.
 
Is it me, or the J-10 looked alot larger than the J-20 as it passed by, 0:10 secs. Note, the J-20 is closer to the camera as the J-10 momentarily disappears behind the J-20 as it passes by to get to the main taxi-way!

by Dizasta(other forum)

 
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Nothing wrong with meeting customer's requirements.

Fair enough. This so-called 'analysis' was done back in 2009. Today, we can compare the F-35's and the J-20's frontal aspects with respect to lateral radar impingement for better illustration. Keep in mind we are using Kopp's own standards...

f-35_j-20_front.jpg


Whatever is good for the goose, it is equally good for the gander, as the Americans say. Looks like the J-20 does not depart much from the F-35 and therefore would fail Kopp's own standards.

The J-20 Mighty Dragon does not have the F-35's meter-plus-long "lumps, bumps, and warts." However, you may have a point with the stealth enclosures of the aileron-control system. I will put that on my list of possible minor deficiencies in the J-20 vs F-22 comparison. I will conduct further investigation into the size of the stealth enclosures.

At this point in time, the F-22 is superior to the J-20 on three counts: J-20 lacks flat engine nozzles (can be remedied); J-20 has partially curved-side surface that needs to be reworked (can be remedied); and minor deduction for canards and ventral fins on edge diffraction (this cannot be changed).

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After an investigation, this is my conclusion:

J-20 stealth aileron-control enclosures are similar to F-22 enclosures. No deduction for J-20 stealth aileron-control enclosures, because F-22 has them too.

sV4WS.jpg

F-22 has stealth aileron-control enclosures, just like the J-20. Both planes are on roughly equal footing on this standard.

pjOoE.jpg

J-20 hydraulically-powered aileron-control system in oval stealth enclosures
 
Is it me, or the J-10 looked alot larger than the J-20 as it passed by, 0:10 secs. Note, the J-20 is closer to the camera as the J-10 momentarily disappears behind the J-20 as it passes by to get to the main taxi-way!

by Dizasta(other forum)


poor video quality + camera over exposure

if you notice also, when the J-10 passed the J-20, the wingspan of J-20 is almost at the same with J-10 body length

F-22 has stealth aileron-control enclosures, just like the J-20. Both planes are on roughly equal footing on this standard.

what standard? eyeball mk.1 standard? you try to establish a standard between 2 VLO aircrafts with visual eyeballing from low quality photographs?
 
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The J-20 Mighty Dragon does not have the F-35's meter-plus long "lumps, bumps, and warts."
Not going to work. On a curve, specular reflection is dominant, then comes surface wave properties. The J-20's expanse of flat surface from that same incident angle will produces the same specular reflections but probably greater.
 
Not going to work. On a curve, specular reflection is dominant, then comes surface wave properties. The J-20's expanse of flat surface from that same incident angle will produces the same specular reflections but probably greater.

which is funny because if we are talking about the underside, the F22 has a similar surface, and on the other hand, the flat sides of the J-20 as opposed to the unexpected (to me perhaps innovative) sides of the T-50 is tooted as a key stealth feature.

I suspected that the absorption of surface and creeping waves in the F-35 overall shape has a lot to do with the LO signature, perhaps even more so than the F22 because the F22 had fewer design compromises in terms of shape.

How well does the J-20 deal with surface and creeping waves? from incident angles typical to SAM systems I cannot see the vertical stabilizer fins in the rear underside being less of a problem to the plane than the humps in the F-35, nor do I see the gaps between the two engine nozzles in the J20 being less of an issue keeping all things equal of course or the space between the canard and the main wing.

Is the shape (and/or the materials) enough to counter the surface waves and attenuate them enough? who knows?





It is this modelling (and furthermore testing to confirm and evaluate the results) that makes the difference in a design. I still maintain that the F-35 is an inferior to expectations plane and perhaps not what the world needs. But I cannot doubt that the modelling-testing-evaluate phase took place.
 
Readers,

From the below is an illustration of RCS contributors on a complex body:

radar_return_mechs.jpg


- Scattered waves: Summation from all possible scatter points (generators).

- Specular reflections: Immediate upon impact. This occurs even if the surface is an absorber, albeit at a lesser energy level.

- Surface waves: Occurs when the incident angle is less than perpendicular (normal). As incident angle departs from perpendicular and approaches parallel the surface become an inducer to the creation of the surface wave phenomena and a conductor to the same. At this point, the surface's expanse is called 'the electrical path'. In a dynamic situation, as in a maneuvering aircraft, surface waves are not constant.

- Diffraction signals: Occurs when there is an abrupt interruption of the surface wave's travel path. Infinite surfaces are theoretical. Practical surfaces are finite and will always produces diffraction signals.

- Traveling waves: A category of surface waves. Usually occurs on the gradual curvature of a surface. A conducting flat surface can also induce the traveling wave effect. Same for a wire. For an aircraft, traveling wave effects are more prominent at nose-on illumination by the seeking radar.

- Creeping waves: Occurs when a surface wave has sufficient energy to travel into the 'shadow region' of a curvature. Best illustration of this is the sphere or a cylinder. At the radar signal's impact point on the sphere or the cylinder, the opposite side is 'the shadow region'. There is a rule called the 'ten lambda' rule that may not allow the creation of the creeping wave effect. Lambda is the symbol for wavelength. For a wavelenght at a fixed distance, if the diameter of the sphere or cylinder is greater than ten lambda, as the surface wave travels, 'leaky waves' radiation will be the primary loss mechanism and eventually will dissipate the surface wave completely. If the diameter of the sphere or cylinder is ten lambda or less, the creeping wave effect will occur and as the wave emerge from 'the shadow region' into the impact side, constructive interference with the specular reflection will enhance the body's detectability.

- Trapped waves: Occurs in cavities such as a tube or a pocket of any shape of a volume. For an aircraft, the cockpit and the engine inlet tunnels are trapped waves creators. Also called 'guided waves'. Depending on length and diameter, a tube with trapped waves from pulses may create continuous wave (CW) emissions that ring (time domain) or resonate (freq domain) and can escape the cavity through the same entry point.

- Ducted waves: Occurs in longitudinal depressions such as between the engines on the aircraft's underside or longitudinal depressions for missile attachments.

The concept of radar cross section (RCS) is not new. But what is 'new' or at least continually being updated it what kind of data are we receiving and CAPABLE of processing. Since the early days of radar detection, ALL of the above have been with us but we were not capable of processing them as well as we knew of them and as well as we would like.

What APA did recently for the J-20 was perform Physical Optics (PO) measurements ONLY and PO is for item two: specular reflections. And I have shown everyone here via post 306 with decades of historical evidences that PO is an inappropriate tool for a complex body. It was not technically wrong because the PO tool can be used any where on a complex body, but it was clearly an inappropriate one. Given the facts that radar detection is essentially a statistical process and that against a neutral background contributors on a complex body will naturally cluster, targets are categorized into two main states: Steady and Dynamic.

- Steady: Geographical features like mountains. Man made features like buildings or towers. These items have a uniform distribution. No further discussions needed for them.

- Dynamic slow: A ship is an example of this. The ship's superstructure is a dominant contributor where lesser structural contributors are clustered around the dominant contributor. In the time domain, lesser contributors may disappear but when they do reappear and even in different aspect angles to the seeking radar, they still cluster around said dominant contributor. To correlate is to examine a detail under different conditions and record the results. Such a slow moving target will require several seconds of target focus to process all major and minor contributors before we can assure ourselves that we are looking at an oil tanker with an aft superstructure, or an aircraft carrier with a center superstructure, or a submarine that is on the sea surface, or a float plane.

- Dynamic fast: A maneuvering aircraft is an example of this. Before the F-117, all aircrafts have a dominant contributor: the corner reflector. As seen below...

airliner_rcs_01.jpg


Even though the airliner is not a high-g fighter, it still qualify as a 'dynamic fast' target because its operating environment require it to travel at several hundreds km/h.

The airliner has a dominant contributor: the tail assembly corner reflector as seen by the large spike. Then many lesser contributors clustered WITH (not necessarily around) the tail assembly. Even if we treat these lesser contributors, the tail assembly reflector as the dominant contributor will reveal the aircraft any way. Going back to the 'untreated' airliner, to correlate and therefore assure ourselves that we are looking at a valid target, because of the airliner's speed that will quickly recreate contributors (spikes) that were destroyed earlier, the correlation process will take mere milliseconds. The dominant contributor give us one target characteristic. The lesser contributors, based upon their spatial distribution, give us another target characteristic because its (air)speed over time continually destroy and create new spikes and they all clustered. Hence, it takes only milliseconds or faster to correlate a 'dynamic fast' target.

Things changed radically for military aviation after the F-117. Now despite the fact that we have a 'dynamic fast' body that supposedly need only milliseconds to correlate we have no dominant contributor. The twin canted vertical stabs deny us the corner reflector. Enclosed weapons further deny us the corner reflectors created by missile fins. Treated cockpit canopy deny us the corner reflectors inside the cockpit. And so on. As for the lesser contributors, they are treated in ways that make it difficult for us to find them as a cluster in the first place. So for our newly design 'stealth' aircraft, even though it is true that specular signals are dominant, we bodyshaped the aircraft and made them so low, hopefully into the clutter rejection threshold, that we have no choice but to include tools, and combinations of tools, far more sophisticated than Physical Optics (PO) to capture as much as possible our model's RCS contributors before we can declare that we achieved our goal. That is the honest way to go.

This is why it is totally inappropriate for APA, a third party that has no access to the J-20, to confine their measurements to just Physical Optics (PO) in their J-20 'analysis', favorably downplay those specular reflections, and simply hand-waved away other contributing mechanisms to support their preconceived ideas on how the J-20 should be. This is seriously flawed because the concept of a radar cross section (RCS) is INCLUSIVE of all radiating mechanisms. It is the degrees of contributorship, based upon comparisons to each other, that will determine if a particular contributor is of interest for further attempts at reduction measures. For all we know, it could be those non-specular contributors that will provide us with sufficient energy level and spatial distribution to make the J-20 detectable. By performing only Physical Optics (PO) and dismissing away other radiating mechanisms, APA is effectively redefining the concept of RCS to suit their pet 'du jour'.

How would any Chinese member like it if I go to China and only after one month, I start making declarations about China's agriculture and the Chinese people based upon...aaahhh...18th century Buddhist pagoda architecture? Would you be offended? Sometimes the group does not need to be vocal in its disapproval of a wrong committed by a person. What APA did was the equivalent of a loudmouthed fool in the company of silent sages.
 
^^^ Please stop copy pasting everything and anything you find anywhere and everywhere. Going through this clutter is seriously cumbersome and annoying. Stick to the thread and open another thread on "principles of a stealth design" or whatever. That should take care of your 'copy pasting' fix.
 
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