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Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

what makes you think so sir!
by the time we get them in operational squadron strength, the indian will be in last satge or would have just finialized the deal for MRCA, will be getting last of there Su30z let alone the Fifth generation!!
it will take hell of time to reach there!
i hope yo understand!

regards!

Nope i dont. I am not talking about MRCA. PAK-FA has started and Indian are planning of inducting it by 2015 even if we take it as an exaggerating still by 2020 PAK-FA should be in the Indian skies which means where are we left? nowhere
 
Nope i dont. I am not talking about MRCA. PAK-FA has started and Indian are planning of inducting it by 2015 even if we take it as an exaggerating still by 2020 PAK-FA should be in the Indian skies which means where are we left? nowhere

Then what you suggest here what should PAF do to encounter that threat of 5th Generation Pak-Fa jet?

Waiting for your kind suggestion on that.:enjoy:
 
Then what you suggest here what should PAF do to encounter that threat of 5th Generation Pak-Fa jet?

Waiting for your kind suggestion on that.:enjoy:

I dont respond well to sarcasm. And i am not suggesting anything here, merely pointing out a fact that we are not taking into account. Over sixty plus years of existence, we have lived in a fantasy world believing one pakistanis is equal to 10 indians and we have some divine strength behind us that will lead us to victory in every battle but the result has been pretty much the opposite. Hope you understand before making sarcastic remarks.
 
I dont respond well to sarcasm. And i am not suggesting anything here, merely pointing out a fact that we are not taking into account. Over sixty plus years of existence, we have lived in a fantasy world believing one pakistanis is equal to 10 indians and we have some divine strength behind us that will lead us to victory in every battle but the result has been pretty much the opposite. Hope you understand before making sarcastic remarks.

I am not asking you too much as you look very coutious about past, current and obviously future development, you must suggest something here from your end. When someone raise a point like this or for that matter amongst the other fields of life then that person should suggest something about it or must proivde a solution to it rather then just pointing out a problem.

Everyone can point out but it takes a guts to speak about the solution of that particular problem which he was talking about.
 
I dont understand what are we planning to gain out of this aircraft since by the time the delivery starts to the PAF and a suitable strength of squardon is added, it will roughly be the same time when India might be getting its next 5th generation fighter. What are we going to do about that or are we simply of the opinion that by the time India gets its Pak-FA, China will to have the so called J-xx ready so we need not worry.:tsk:

Here are my views on the subject.


I think anyone who thinks "China will have the J-XX and we'll get it from them" is living in a...I would say "unknown territory" instead of fool's paradise. While there is a good chance that PAF might be in a position to get the next Chinese aircraft if and when it comes out, there are no such guarantees.

Having said that, I believe this aircraft ( the J-10) will be quite effective for PAF given its meagre resources. Let's not forget that PAK-FA is not the only aircraft IAF will have. There would still be hundreds of 4th and 4.5 gen fighters with them. And we do not know as of yet, what the capabilities of the PAK-FA will be. Heck, we do not even fully know what the capabilities of the FC-20 will be. If it gets a good AESA radar and next gen. of missiles, it would be capable enough to make anyone think not twice but thrice before challenging it.

Another thing is that no airforce, even the mighty USAF flies all 5th gen aircrafts. So even if China does have a J-XX and even if we are able to get hold of it, we still need to fill up the strength because we do not expect their strength to be beyond one or two squadrons, say be 2020 or 2025. They are going to be pretty expensive for a country that is struggling to buy the J-10s and JF-17s. Similarly,and as I mentioned above, neither will IAF has a complete fleet of PAK-FA. Ideally, we should get the J-10s ASAP but wishes are not always fulfilled both by our financial condition and the fact that J-10s have Russian engines.

Moreover, I would say that its not the F-22 or the B-2 or F-117 that defeated the USSR but the financial liability to follow suite. One could argue that if you cannot match it, then why even bother. Why not even save the money to be spent on the J-10s? To that I would say, that modern wars by countries with superior hardware are only fought against those with no hardware. Otherwise put, Iraq had nothing and got invaded but say Russia or china has nothing to match the F-22 but US will never think of invading them. Even the threat of a bloody nose is better than no threat at all. With the close proximity of India and the changing environment of warefare (AWACS, BVR, SAMs,etc) FC-20 is a powerful threat for a bloody nose to anyone.

Finally-- I do not think PAF will be (or rather should be) our primary force for deterrence for an all out war. That should go to the non-conventional weapons. The armed forces (including PAF) should be there to avoid any "limited" or "partial" war with the constant threat of the non-conventional weapons. We simply cannot invest the billions required to seek a similar joint project(s) in airforce/Navy. All we can do is optimize the resources we have and build diversified but lower cost solutions to our threat.

Thinking smarter rather than harder should be the key to our policy. The threat from a PAK-FA is less than the threat form trying to emulate it. That's not to say that we shouldn't use our strategic/political/diplomatic ties to get whatever we can.
 
Here are my views on the subject.


I think anyone who thinks "China will have the J-XX and we'll get it from them" is living in a...I would say "unknown territory" instead of fool's paradise. While there is a good chance that PAF might be in a position to get the next Chinese aircraft if and when it comes out, there are no such guarantees.

Having said that, I believe this aircraft ( the J-10) will be quite effective for PAF given its meagre resources. Let's not forget that PAK-FA is not the only aircraft IAF will have. There would still be hundreds of 4th and 4.5 gen fighters with them. And we do not know as of yet, what the capabilities of the PAK-FA will be. Heck, we do not even fully know what the capabilities of the FC-20 will be. If it gets a good AESA radar and next gen. of missiles, it would be capable enough to make anyone think not twice but thrice before challenging it.

Another thing is that no airforce, even the mighty USAF flies all 5th gen aircrafts. So even if China does have a J-XX and even if we are able to get hold of it, we still need to fill up the strength because we do not expect their strength to be beyond one or two squadrons, say be 2020 or 2025. They are going to be pretty expensive for a country that is struggling to buy the J-10s and JF-17s. Similarly,and as I mentioned above, neither will IAF has a complete fleet of PAK-FA. Ideally, we should get the J-10s ASAP but wishes are not always fulfilled both by our financial condition and the fact that J-10s have Russian engines.

Moreover, I would say that its not the F-22 or the B-2 or F-117 that defeated the USSR but the financial liability to follow suite. One could argue that if you cannot match it, then why even bother. Why not even save the money to be spent on the J-10s? To that I would say, that modern wars by countries with superior hardware are only fought against those with no hardware. Otherwise put, Iraq had nothing and got invaded but say Russia or china has nothing to match the F-22 but US will never think of invading them. Even the threat of a bloody nose is better than no threat at all. With the close proximity of India and the changing environment of warefare (AWACS, BVR, SAMs,etc) FC-20 is a powerful threat for a bloody nose to anyone.

Finally-- I do not think PAF will be (or rather should be) our primary force for deterrence for an all out war. That should go to the non-conventional weapons. The armed forces (including PAF) should be there to avoid any "limited" or "partial" war with the constant threat of the non-conventional weapons. We simply cannot invest the billions required to seek a similar joint project(s) in airforce/Navy. All we can do is optimize the resources we have and build diversified but lower cost solutions to our threat.

Thinking smarter rather than harder should be the key to our policy. The threat from a PAK-FA is less than the threat form trying to emulate it. That's not to say that we shouldn't use our strategic/political/diplomatic ties to get whatever we can.

My concern is the time line acquiring the FC-20s. Imagine a scernario where our block-52 gets sanctioned( and the unpredictability of the US policies, its not that hard to imagine) what are we left with JF-17s and upgraded F-16s and like few members suggested maybe mirage-2000 from UAE. Now there is a big gap from the time to when we start getting the FC-20s which is 2015. Also we can all speculate about its capabilties, but the one fact that we need to keep in mind is that PAF wasnt impressed by the original J-10 and instead opted for the good old F-16s, my point is what if the same happens with FC-20 although i understand the fact that it is tailored to meet PAF requirement. We will be caught with our pants down because it will be too late and nearly impossible to fill in the huge gap as India by then will not only start receiving its MRCA but also LCA, upgraded migs, MKIs and something that we dont keep into account while discussing future indo Pakistan scenarios the PAK-FA. We can disagree with time span, but we cannot disagree with the fact that sooner or latter it will be flying in Indian colours and we have nothing to counter it.
The first delivery for the FC-20 should have been by 2010 and within few years not only had we inducted the jet in full multiple squardon strenght but also mastered it like we have mastered F-16s and have further improved it as per our requirements and growing threat perception.

Now non conventional weapons are all good but in the end its the airforce that provides cover to these non conventional assests. Certainly they are of no value if blown even before we could launch them.
Remember the only airfield in 71 was blown by the IAF after which the PAF could not provide effective air cover to the land forces and the result is been seen by all.

My 2 cents over the issue.
 
Nope i dont. I am not talking about MRCA. PAK-FA has started and Indian are planning of inducting it by 2015 even if we take it as an exaggerating still by 2020 PAK-FA should be in the Indian skies which means where are we left? nowhere

sir, though i cannot raise point to your crediability but stil i doiubt this inforamtion!
the PAK-FA is stil under develpment. there is no news of any prototype and not even any instrument testing for the plane. Russian sources claimes that the chines JXX project is ahead of there one! even if we take it as a propagande claim still there is no news of PAKFA taking it to the skies...
not even a prototype yet, and after the first prototype it will take some good five or more years to get tit operational at squadron level!

regards!
 
Even the Indian Air Force Chief of Air Staff does not expect operational PAK-FA/FGFA well into the next decade (i.e., 2020+). By 2015, the IAF won't even have all the MMRCAs flying in their sky, induction for that begins 2014 at the earliest. By 2015, Russia will be lucky to have an LRIP model for testing and V&V. India will be lucky if their pilots get a taste of one of the IOC aircraft by 2017.
Source: NOT my intuition, which is obviously not as well developed as yours, but Aviation Week, probably the most reliable aviation magazine around.

That gives us what, a mere decade to develop countermeasures? Hmm, I wonder how we will ever squeeze it in!

sir, though i cannot raise point to your crediability but stil i doiubt this inforamtion!
the PAK-FA is stil under develpment. there is no news of any prototype and not even any instrument testing for the plane. Russian sources claimes that the chines JXX project is ahead of there one! even if we take it as a propagande claim still there is no news of PAKFA taking it to the skies...
not even a prototype yet, and after the first prototype it will take some good five or more years to get tit operational at squadron level!


regards!
Now that's an intelligent answer. But, what source claims the J-XX is ahead? I haven't come across it.
 
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sir, though i cannot raise point to your crediability but stil i doiubt this inforamtion!
the PAK-FA is stil under develpment. there is no news of any prototype and not even any instrument testing for the plane. Russian sources claimes that the chines JXX project is ahead of there one! even if we take it as a propagande claim still there is no news of PAKFA taking it to the skies...
not even a prototype yet, and after the first prototype it will take some good five or more years to get tit operational at squadron level!

regards!
J-XX The PLAAF’s Plans for a Stealthy Fifth Generation Fighter

There is very little information available about the J-XX. The existence of the program was first disclosed by US Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) in 1997 when J-XX was described as a 4th generation fighter to enter the service around 2015. China, however, tends to use Russian parlance, and in Russian parlance J-XX is a fifth generation fighter. Much of the information actually available is speculation - other information confuses the J-10, intended as the PLAAF answer to the latest variants of F-16, with J-XX. J-XX might be designated with J numbers between J-12 and J-14. The project has completed a stage equivalent to the USAF Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) program of the early 1980s. The fighter is thought to be in the early stages of what later led to the F/A-22 Raptor.

What is known with reasonable certainty about J-XX is that it is intended to be the Chinese response to F-22. However, this is probably for public consumption and the type should be seen as a ‘response’ to F-35. This accords with a similar Russian program. This is the Sukhoi T-50 project and it is aimed at being able to counter the F-35 both operationally and in the export theatre. T-50 is not a counter to F-22. It is not likely that J-XX is intended to exceed the capability of theT-50, nor does this seem possible given the great effort and expense the US had to make to develop the F-22. The only potential ‘spoiler’ behind that assessment is Chinese espionage. This is known to be excellent, extremely well funded and directed, and to have deeply penetrated all aspects of US industry up to and including Chinese acquisition of US nuclear weapons design details. So deeply penetrated is the US by China that anything is possible, including their access to some F-22 material.

Reporting on J-XX is highly varied and contains much speculation. There seems to be general agreement that it is now a twin engined, twin tailed ‘fifth’ generation fighter with advanced stealth characteristics. The fighter is in the 19-21 ton class (empty) and is generally thought to have benefited from extensive Chinese industrial espionage against US industry.

China launched its next generation stealthy fighter aircraft program in the late 1990s. Two major industrial entities are primary in the program, Chengdu Aircraft Design and Research Institute (CADRI or 611 Institute) and the Shenyang Aircraft Industry Company’s Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute (SADI or 601 Institute). There appear to have been three designs offered for the competition, with CADRI and SADI both offering designs for a twin-engine multi-role reduced RCS fighter with internal weapons carriage, thrust vectoring and manoeuvrability comparable to American F/A-22. The third design offered was apparently a J-10 derivative with canards, but this is believed to have been rejected early in the process.

The Shenyang Aircraft Corporation is now probably the primary production contractor, with CADRI being prime on the design of the J-XX. It is believed that each of these design houses offered their own designs, with the competition based on both companies receiving major work from it. CADRI is generally thought to have won the competition.

Development of the aircraft’s subsystems, including the engine and weapon suite for J-XX, has been underway since about 2000. While available images are little more than guesses, concepts and artist’s impressions, they have some common features. The most credible show a twin-engine aircraft bearing a generic resemblance to Lockheed Martin's very low radar cross section (RCS) F/A-22 Raptor multirole fighter. These common features include internal carriage of weapons. However, care must be exercised: it is not known if these illustrations are based on real data, or are based on F-22 because that is a known type.

Chinese military aviation is solidly based on Soviet roots and has a long history of license production of former Soviet types. Since the collapse of the USSR it has developed even deeper ties with Russia's aerospace industry. While many of these are commercial, there is a hidden world of Chinese reverse engineering of Russian technology and of their use of information also obtained by clandestine means. According to Russian reports, in about 2001 the Russian Government decided to develop a new fifth-generation fighter. The Sukhoi, Mikoyan and Yakovlev Design Bureaus partook in a design competition, which Sukhoi won with a project they refer to internally as T-50.

The Russian project has since met its milestones and the first T-50 prototype is scheduled to fly during August 2009. Systems development has been done aboard a small number of modified Su-27 series aircraft, with supercruise engines, advanced avionics and advanced radar having been tested in flight. The head of the Sukhoi Design Bureau, Mr Mikhail Pogosyan, has confirmed first flight of T-50 in Russian media. He has also confirmed that a two-seat version and a carrier version are also under consideration. During mid 2008, Russian officials confirmed that construction of the first three T-50 prototypes was underway at Sukhoi’s Komsomolsk-na-Amur factory (KNAAPO). It was also stated that testing and evaluation of the T-50 would cover the period 2001-2014 and that initial production would not occur until about 2015, assuming all went well with the trials program.

The Tikhomirov Institute of Instrument Design developed the Irbis radar for the Su-35BM Flanker. There are unconfirmed reports that this radar is be the basis for the T-50 radar, and that the Su-35BM avionics is the development basis for the T-50’s avionics suite. Little confirmed information is available on T-50 although it is known to be a fighter in the 20 ton (empty) and circa 30 ton (maximum take off weight) classes and to bear a general resemblance to the F-22. It is known that the prototypes and first production spiral will have the 117S (upgraded AL-31) turbofan engines built by the Russian company Saturn. This implies the obvious, the T-50 is based on the Sukhoi Design Bureau’s experience with the Flanker series. As a result, the T-50 is a heavy fighter with a takeoff weight of over 30 metric tons and will have the same dimensions as the well-known Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker.

Why this is important to the Chinese program is that China has a close relationship with Sukhoi due to its Flanker fleet and license production of the type. Therefore, the Russian timeline and development path, which clearly leverages off Sukhoi’s expertise in developing the numerous Flanker family, is likely to bear a close similarity to the Chinese development path for J-XX. As Russia has already discussed export of T-50 with India, it may well be seen by China as a potential backup for J-XX or it may provide technology and information feeding into that project. Whichever is true, J-XX will certainly utilise the expertise provided to the Chinese aviation industry by license building Flanker.

Therefore, it is certain that J-XX will contain considerable Russian design input, both indirectly from Chinese involvement in Flanker production, and directly from Sukhoi. Unconfirmed reports state that - along with India - China has been offered joint development and production of T-50.



A wind tunnel model resembling an F-22 was shown in a promotional video at the 2002 Zhuhai Airshow. A prototype thrust-vectoring nozzle was on display at the 2002 Zhuhai Airshow. It is not known if this was related to the J-XX project, but this is at least possible. Other hints as to its systems have been noticed. The J-XX will use the fly by wire system. This has been developed by SADI aboard its J-8IIACT technology demonstrator. Russian assistance in software support has been widely reported but is not confirmed, as the reports seem to track back to a single Russian source.

J-XX has finished its theoretical definition stage and is probably still in its program definition stage. If this is so, then various technologies are still being examined according to their ability to meet defined operational requirements. Therefore, China is probably well aware of the gaps in its capability, and is probably in the process of seeking from Russia.

Speculation the J-XX may enter service as early as 2015 can confidently be dismissed. China’s aviation base is not quite as developed as that of Russia and the very earliest that T-50 might achieve IOC is 2015. Designing, testing and then producing a fighter of this type demands extensive and complex investment, technology integration and development across materials science, advanced avionics, high-performance jet engine, avionics, software and RCS technology. None of this is easy, and it has to be supported by very advanced computer-aided design and computer-aided manufacture (CAD/CAM) processes, the whole then coordinated through highly sophisticated project management techniques. Very few countries possess such capabilities and developing them is the work of a generation. It is scarcely credible that China could develop this capability at the first attempt, and do so in the same time as the more experienced Russian industry.
Variants

In early 2009 the head of the PLA(N), Admiral Wu Shengli stated that the PLA(N) was interested in supercruise capable fighter to operate from ‘large combat surface ships’. This probably flags PLA(N) interest in a carrier-based variant of J-XX as no other suitable supercruise capable fighter is known to under development in China. Chinese media also suggests that a two-seat attack version is possible, perhaps as a replacement for the F-7 Flounder.

The actual nature of J-XX is far less relevant than what the project to develop such an aircraft says about the Chinese attitudes. The most important thing about J-XX is that is serves notice: China aims to be a major player in aviation development and to build the industrial base of a great power. Irrespective of the success of J-XX or its nature, in designing and building such an aircraft China will equal the European powers in aviation industry capability, as they have to combine to produce fighters of this nature. China will not quite have reached Russia with J-XX, but she will be very close.

That marks a milestone of very great significance.

J-XX The PLAAF’s Plans for a Stealthy Fifth Generation Fighter
:enjoy:
 
What?! PAK-FA in Indian skies by 2015? And you have "Senior Member" written under your name!

If only you have read my post a bit more carefully rather spending your time building up this rant of yours you would have realized that i clearly wrote the line if we take it as an exaggeration meaning that i dont buy the argument of 2015 either but what i buy is the fact as mentioned in one of my reply to meanbird that sooner or latter it would be in the Indian skies for which we dont have a counter too as we didnt even started thinking for a counter yet alone make one. India has started a joint venture with the Russians now and they are expecting by 2020, do you think that we can manage to counter it up in just days? And if you think that by then there will be something called the J-xx, then as suggested by meanbird and i fully agree with him, you are not living in fools paradise but in another dimension. First Chinese aviation industry has not reached the same level as that of their Russian counterparts which is why China still uses a russian powerplant in their main workhorse and so is Pakistan in JF-17 and even if china does develop Jxx by that time which i doubt, there is no guarantee that China would agree to sell such a vital technology to Pakistan just because it agreed to sell J-10 something which didnt impress Pakistan to begin with. So what countermeasures are you babbling about only in your wet dreams maybe but not otherwise. The fact is no country in the world is willing to sell Pakistan a damn thing because first we are a muslim country and second we are beggars, we will be lucky enough if we get the F-16s without interruption.


I doubt you deserve that. Enjoy the fanboys, because, really, that's all you deserve.

PS: I wouldn't have taken such a tone to your post had it not been for your lack of respect for anyone who counters you.

Like i give a hoot about it. By the way why is your back burning?I dont see anything disrespectful in my post but only a reply to a sarcastic comment. You give respect to gain one and not the other way round. Moreover If you consider my post so disrespectful why bother replying in the first place, i didnt ask for you reply nor am i interested in debating with a moron like you. Consider this as a last reply.

Goodday and enjoy the la la land you are living in after all its the Pakistanis living in Pakistan that will suffer the brunt and not some canadian Pakistani wanna be.:tsk:
 
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What?! PAK-FA in Indian skies by 2015? And you have "Senior Member" written under your name!

Even the Indian Air Force Chief of Air Staff does not expect operational PAK-FA/FGFA well into the next decade (i.e., 2020+). By 2015, the IAF won't even have all the MMRCAs flying in their sky, induction for that begins 2014 at the earliest. By 2015, Russia will be lucky to have an LRIP model for testing and V&V. India will be lucky if their pilots get a taste of one of the IOC aircraft by 2017.
Source: NOT my intuition, which is obviously not as well developed as yours, but Aviation Week, probably the most reliable aviation magazine around.

That gives us what, a mere decade to develop countermeasures? Hmm, I wonder how we will ever squeeze it in!


I doubt you deserve that. Enjoy the fanboys, because, really, that's all you deserve.

PS: I wouldn't have taken such a tone to your post had it not been for your lack of respect for anyone who counters you.


Now that's an intelligent answer. But, what source claims the J-XX is ahead? I haven't come across it.

Come on Brothers settle down. No need to get into an argument!! lets carry on this debate like the brothers that we are!!
Regarding pakfa, i doubt that the Indians will be getting it in 2015. I agree with PAF ace that the timeline is more likely to be 2020-25. The MRCA induction would have just started in 2014(based on an order in 2011__12) I dont think India would be in any position to add another fighter in its inventry.
i have a funny feeling that the fifth generation saga will not last very long. We have seen how there have been instances where even conventional radars have picked up these fighters. the moment a new technology comes on which can locate these planes they will loose their luster faster than the old two penny. As such i wonder if the answer is really to skip it altogether and move onto drones and pilot less planes .
In the Indo Pak scenario we will be looking at a conventional fight till 2025.I suspect that we will only have a few squadrons of quality planes(late 4th or 5th gen)and the rest will be more or less our urrent inventry slightly upgraded. it is also interesting that the EU is not trying to put out anything to counter the F35and 22. Is it because they feel the same or they really dont have any thing to offer.They ar einstead looking at buying F35and f22.
The real problem is in 2010-13 for PAF where if we dont get F16s we will have a huge hiatus with not enought thunders and no J10. I dont know the answer there but i suspect PAF has discussed the eventuality(Ex ACM said F16s if they come are a bonus) and have a plan up ther sleeves, but the problem is financing this in light of our current financial crisis.
I suspect we can go for M2Ks , but even that will not arrive till 2012-13. If we do we will have no problems till 2020, and we can have time to induct FC20 and look at another plane for( late 4th gen or 5th gen) qualitative edge. Money will however remain an issue
waSalam
Araz
 
Originally Posted by araz
Come on Brothers settle down. No need to get into an argument!! lets carry on this debate like the brothers that we are!!
I'm sorry, araz, for losing my cool. I broke the most important rule of web-forums, never, ever, disagree with an ignoramus.

As for what you've written, right on the money with the PAK-FA and MMRCA situation. Though, I disagree that 5th Gen AC will die out. See, Stealth is just a part of next-gen aircraft (an important part, but a part nonetheless); other next-gen features; such as enhanced avionics, net-centric capabilites, supercruise, next-gen weapons, ECM, EO/IR sensors, radars, etc. are all here to stay. Also, stealth tech will mature, so don't count it out just because some radars were able to detect it. Most of these radars were particularly looking for the next-gen aircraft in simulated and controlled environments. It's much more difficult to detect them when you don't know when or where they will come from, and how many.

Assuming the worst case scenario in the PAF-IAF situation, i.e., we have no F-16 B/52s and a squadron or two of FC-20s, whereas India may have a squadron or two of MMRCA in addition to Su-30MKI, the gap will not be much larger than it is today. PAF will not allow the situation to deteriorate further, so this talk of India inducting the PAK-FA while we still have the same arsenal as today is not very realistic. Remember, Pakistan is closer to getting the FC-20s and F-16s than India is to getting their FGFA. As for J-XX, that is definitely a real project as admitted by Western media sources, but Pakistan should not currently invest much hope in that. In short, PAF will not reveal Plan B to us, not until it is necessary, and right now it seems Plan A is working just fine (not for the alarmists, but for us normals). It is foolish to let the enemy know what you intend to do in any situation, particularly a disadvantaged one.
 
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I won't even bother replying to the first half of your post, its pointless because you've clearly revealed you know just about nothing about the international aerospace industry. Comparing engine design to airframe design capability is so childish, I can't even explain it to you without stooping to your level of intelligence. Secondly, you really don't know much about how the Chinese or the PAF operates either, quite evidently.

As for the second half, oh, someone is getting personal. The quality of this particular creature is revealed. What do you know about me to claim I am not a Pakistani? You just wanted to low-blow me, and I bet you feel proud of that. I could very well report you for it, but what's the point, you'll just throw another tantrum. And you wondered why people here won't respect you. Just read what you wrote one more time, or if you have trouble, get someone else to read it and then critique it. They'll tell you what I'll tell you, you're a worthless piece of ...


I'm sorry, araz, for losing my cool. I broke the most important rule of web-forums, never, ever, disagree with an ignoramus.

As for what you've written, right on the money with the PAK-FA and MMRCA situation. Though, I disagree that 5th Gen AC will die out. See, Stealth is just a part of next-gen aircraft (an important part, but a part nonetheless); other next-gen features; such as enhanced avionics, net-centric capabilites, supercruise, next-gen weapons, ECM, EO/IR sensors, radars, etc. are all here to stay. Also, stealth tech will mature, so don't count it out just because some radars were able to detect it. Most of these radars were particularly looking for the next-gen aircraft in simulated and controlled environments. It's much more difficult to detect them when you don't know when or where they will come from, and how many.

Assuming the worst case scenario in the PAF-IAF situation, i.e., we have no F-16 B/52s and a squadron or two of FC-20s, whereas India may have a squadron or two of MMRCA in addition to Su-30MKI, the gap will not be much larger than it is today. PAF will not allow the situation to deteriorate further, so this talk of India inducting the PAK-FA while we still have the same arsenal as today is not very realistic. Remember, Pakistan is closer to getting the FC-20s and F-16s than India is to getting their FGFA. As for J-XX, that is definitely a real project as admitted by Western media sources, but Pakistan should not currently invest much hope in that. In short, PAF will not reveal Plan B to us, not until it is necessary, and right now it seems Plan A is working just fine (not for the alarmists, but for us normals). It is foolish to let the enemy know what you intend to do in any situation, particularly a disadvantaged one.

PAF ace
My friend this is what I meant. Technological advancements aside the human in the aircraft is the biggest impediment to making the fighter perform better. Plus they are expensive to train and only last 20-30yrs at best. I think in many ways 5th generation is a tech demonstrator for things to come. I am still intrigued by how EU has letitself fall behind quite intentionlly in the race to get 5th gen fighters. However they are all going great guns for UAVs. It seems that they too foresee it as a temporary measure and therefore not worth persuing.
In PAfs scenario instead of going after 5th gen, I would concentrate on a very small cheap yet strong UCAV carrying 1-2 SRAAM/MRAAms. Imagine your sky full of a hundred or so UCAVS with no radars but getting updates from a plane flying 150-200KMs behind. Small and lethal.
What do you think
Araz
 
PAF ace
My friend this is what I meant. Technological advancements aside the human in the aircraft is the biggest impediment to making the fighter perform better. Plus they are expensive to train and only last 20-30yrs at best. I think in many ways 5th generation is a tech demonstrator for things to come. I am still intrigued by how EU has letitself fall behind quite intentionlly in the race to get 5th gen fighters. However they are all going great guns for UAVs. It seems that they too foresee it as a temporary measure and therefore not worth persuing.
In PAfs scenario instead of going after 5th gen, I would concentrate on a very small cheap yet strong UCAV carrying 1-2 SRAAM/MRAAms. Imagine your sky full of a hundred or so UCAVS with no radars but getting updates from a plane flying 150-200KMs behind. Small and lethal.
What do you think
Araz

Sir if the 5th generation was just a tech demonstrater, why do you think US is spending billions in research. Moreover your argument about why EU is left behind the 5th generation race, well sir its not valid, the reason is that most of the EU countries are partners in the JSF project (UK, Germany......) so why reinvent the wheel when it already exists. Russia has started developing its own 5th generation fighter jet with India as partner and certainly China too as suggested by many have entered into developing its own version of a 5th generation figther jet.
 

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