Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[SBD-3]

thats more like it!

that is what we need to do at the time! no more projects, stick to JF17, get some J10 and if possible start cooperation in chines fifth generation plane project!
regards!

well do you really think that collaboration with china over 5th gen fighter will be like Thunder 250 Million USDs? Hell no! 5th gen is usually a three digit billion USDs project we atleast should have 15-20 Blns in our coffers if we are to become partners.And i dont know why we a so optimistic about PAF acquiring JXX.Will China handover a precious plane to friend like Pakistan? look at US's raptor case with Japan

 

[Arsalan]

well do you really think that collaboration with china over 5th gen fighter will be like Thunder 250 Million USDs? Hell no! 5th gen is usually a three digit billion USDs project we atleast should have 15-20 Blns in our coffers if we are to become partners.And i dont know why we a so optimistic about PAF acquiring JXX.Will China handover a precious plane to friend like Pakistan? look at US's raptor case with Japan

china do always ofeer us the best they have, provided we are willing to buy them, there is not any case of chines declining to give something to pakistan just fo technology issues! the FC20, is a good example. even the F7 PGs came when china was operating them as F7 and the PGs were heavily modified!
as for the money issue we will have to join it one day or the other as indian may be getting hands on to some in 15 to 20 years time. if ToT of joint production is costly we can opt for a squadron or two and buy them from chines as they will be good enough for us!
the thing is that it is totally true that for the time being we must stick o JF17 and J10 projects but if we look beyond 2020 we will have to get some fifth generation planes!

regards!

 

[Arsalan]

respected friend Mr. hasnain0099, also i guess that you have coated the price tag from the raptor project but we know that chines are always a cheaper option also they have examples of raptor and F35 to learn from. even surely they wont get a chance to analyze these US systems but still they may have some important lessons to learn as a lot information is availabe now! i hope you will agree with this that chines are way too goog in learning from other's system, that is what the world calls copying!!
i hope you will agree with me on this!

anyway, regards!

 

[SBD-3]

respected friend Mr. hasnain0099, also i guess that you have coated the price tag from the raptor project but we know that chines are always a cheaper option also they have examples of raptor and F35 to learn from. even surely they wont get a chance to analyze these US systems but still they may have some important lessons to learn as a lot information is availabe now! i hope you will agree with this that chines are way too goog in learning from other's system, that is what the world calls copying!!
i hope you will agree with me on this!

anyway, regards!

Yap! there was a lot of buzz last days about China facing allegations from US about copying the Information about JSF but Yankees are quite smart as they kept the critical information on computers not connected to internet.I think JSF program is also very costly compare 132 Billion with 200 Billion still a lot of money! and we should not expect JXX to be "Cheap" as in accounting what we call fix cost allocation and in economics, economies of scale. due to limited demand, JXX will not be produced in numbers like JF or other planes so fixed cost will not speard lifting the per unit price of the same i guess it would be about 150~175 millions a piece

 

[Tempest II]

Yap! there was a lot of buzz last days about China facing allegations from US about copying the Information about JSF but Yankees are quite smart as they kept the critical information on computers not connected to internet.I think JSF program is also very costly compare 132 Billion with 200 Billion still a lot of money! and we should not expect JXX to be "Cheap" as in accounting what we call fix cost allocation and in economics, economies of scale. due to limited demand, JXX will not be produced in numbers like JF or other planes so fixed cost will not speard lifting the per unit price of the same i guess it would be about 150~175 millions a piece

I believe over 4,400 F-16 have been produced for the 70s and they still cost more that the J-10 with less than 200 flying. Economies os scale when it comes to importing Western military equipment compared to Chinese I don't think that applies. Yes, Chinese equipment would be even cheaper if they are produced in the same volume, but even the fewer numbers still come out cheaper than American.

 

[SBD-3]

I believe over 4,400 F-16 have been produced for the 70s and they still cost more that the J-10 with less than 200 flying. Economies os scale when it comes to importing Western military equipment compared to Chinese I don't think that applies. Yes, Chinese equipment would be even cheaper if they are produced in the same volume, but even the fewer numbers still come out cheaper than American.

there are 2 factors
1) Falcon Program is not the same program that was initiated years back in 80s the falcons have gradually improved so R&D is on continious bases so one should expect the price tag to be higher.
2) The case with cheap tech is that when it comes to china, most of the tech is off the shelf and implemented from other programs so as R&D is major cost contributor toward development projects Chinese are able to keep this component down significantly how can you expect to produce a world class AC like thunder in only 500 Mln USDs? Where as in case of western scenario the projects are initiated AB initio rising the cost significantly (any corrections and counter views will be highly appriciated)

 

[Tempest II]

there are 2 factors
1) Falcon Program is not the same program that was initiated years back in 80s the falcons have gradually improved so R&D is on continious bases so one should expect the price tag to be higher.
2) The case with cheap tech is that when it comes to china, most of the tech is off the shelf and implemented from other programs so as R&D is major cost contributor toward development projects Chinese are able to keep this component down significantly how can you expect to produce a world class AC like thunder in only 500 Mln USDs? Where as in case of western scenario the projects are initiated AB initio rising the cost significantly (any corrections and counter views will be highly appriciated)

I understand the F-16 has been improving by further developement as to be expected. However, this R&D has bee increamental - therefore the R&D focused on the F-16, say in the last 10 years, has not been as much as that on the J-10. I.e. there has been more in place for the F-16 in the past decade than the J-10 - including production lines and certified supplier networks. However, because thing in the US are more expensive, the F-16 is still expensive.

Yes, the J-10 will borrow from technologies already developed for those that came before it, i.e. F-16. The same applies to the Chinese J-XX. it will leverage on available technologies they can access on US programs.

The bottom line is the Chinese equivalent will be cheaper.

 

[Arsalan]

Yap! there was a lot of buzz last days about China facing allegations from US about copying the Information about JSF but Yankees are quite smart as they kept the critical information on computers not connected to internet.I think JSF program is also very costly compare 132 Billion with 200 Billion still a lot of money! and we should not expect JXX to be "Cheap" as in accounting what we call fix cost allocation and in economics, economies of scale. due to limited demand, JXX will not be produced in numbers like JF or other planes so fixed cost will not speard lifting the per unit price of the same i guess it would be about 150~175 millions a piece

yes that right!
still chines can bring down the price by huge amounts, rather it is better to say that they will bring it down by an unbeleivable amount for many reasons:
firstly the chines are always cheaper than rest of the world because on many reasons which includes less labour cost and good technology at home!
secondly the chines will fancy on lot and lot of things that the US had to find out by research and burning billions of dollars! a simplest thing that comes to mind of a common person like me is that the chines do not have to research on the design of vertical tail, they know at what angle they will have the minimum RCS! also what should be shape of nose and thata the internal bay will significantly redice radar signature! all this stuff was researched by US and cost them billions!
these are the points that immediately come to an ordinary persons mind so you can tink of what the Chines scientists and engineers will be able to extract fromthe F22 and F35!!

Regards!

 

[SBD-3]

yes that right!
still chines can bring down the price by huge amounts, rather it is better to say that they will bring it down by an unbeleivable amount for many reasons:
firstly the chines are always cheaper than rest of the world because on many reasons which includes less labour cost and good technology at home!
secondly the chines will fancy on lot and lot of things that the US had to find out by research and burning billions of dollars! a simplest thing that comes to mind of a common person like me is that the chines do not have to research on the design of vertical tail, they know at what angle they will have the minimum RCS! also what should be shape of nose and thata the internal bay will significantly redice radar signature! all this stuff was researched by US and cost them billions!
these are the points that immediately come to an ordinary persons mind so you can tink of what the Chines scientists and engineers will be able to extract fromthe F22 and F35!!

Regards!

well dear brother that is debatable.The chinese were able to keep the cost down in pricious programs due to the fact that they purchased the design and didnt do much RD by it self on those (that no ways means no RD) look ar Q-5 J-7 JF J-10 and J-11 all are derivatives (differences of openion will be welcomed) dont know much about FBC-1 so they are not building them from scratches and the reason that JSF and JXX will be relativly cheaper is the fact the JSF borrowed from Raptor and JXX will borrow a lot of its structure from J-10 or J-9.About second para well it seems very easy and very simple the way you described it but it is not just consider how long raptor has been there almost all the current fighters (EF,Rafael,Giffon,Mig-35) were produced after F-22 if every thing was simple wh didnt all these had tails like F-22? why didnt they had internal wepons bay? Its not that simple it seems to be and chinese engneers would be able to sort out the tech meaningfully if and only if they somhow get their hands on JSF or Rap which seems next to impossible

 

[Arsalan]

well dear brother that is debatable.The chinese were able to keep the cost down in pricious programs due to the fact that they purchased the design and didnt do much RD by it self on those (that no ways means no RD) look ar Q-5 J-7 JF J-10 and J-11 all are derivatives (differences of openion will be welcomed) dont know much about FBC-1 so they are not building them from scratches and the reason that JSF and JXX will be relativly cheaper is the fact the JSF borrowed from Raptor and JXX will borrow a lot of its structure from J-10 or J-9.About second para well it seems very easy and very simple the way you described it but it is not just consider how long raptor has been there almost all the current fighters (EF,Rafael,Giffon,Mig-35) were produced after F-22 if every thing was simple wh didnt all these had tails like F-22? why didnt they had internal wepons bay? Its not that simple it seems to be and chinese engneers would be able to sort out the tech meaningfully if and only if they somhow get their hands on JSF or Rap which seems next to impossible

well i agree with you dear but just want to add that if a non professional can find all that stuff the professional scientists and engineers are sure going to extract lot lot more things!
anyway let us get back to the topic, for the time being we will have to stick to JF and FC projetcs!

regards!

 

[hazi]

is the j-10 going to be used on any of the chinese aicraft carriers and if so how is it going to compare with the russian su-33 which has got folding wings, arrester hook, a reinforced structure, and other modifications that help it deal with carrier operations and landings.

i would be really glad if you could answer my question

 

[SBD-3]

is the j-10 going to be used on any of the chinese aicraft carriers and if so how is it going to compare with the russian su-33 which has got folding wings, arrester hook, a reinforced structure, and other modifications that help it deal with carrier operations and landings.

i would be really glad if you could answer my question

Yap it is still under development with little details publicized

 

[Manticore]

is the j-10 going to be used on any of the chinese aicraft carriers and if so how is it going to compare with the russian su-33 which has got folding wings, arrester hook, a reinforced structure, and other modifications that help it deal with carrier operations and landings.

i would be really glad if you could answer my question

A carrier based J-10 has also been reported but this is in direct competition with the J-13, a dedicated 4.5++ carrier fighter with a conventional layout similar to the F/A-18 Super Hornets.

J-10C with twin engines around the size of RD-33s and incorporating similar features to the J-10B has arrived. This is supposedly a direct competitor to the Eurofighter and has the same layout - twin engined canard delta with a single tail. The PLAAF will have to decide whether to go with the J-10B or the J-10C at some point. Pakistan will not go for the J-10C as the twin engines do not comply with their doctrine of single-engined fighters and with the AFFDP-2019.
Grande Strategy: The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging
j10 comparison table
View attachment 3768
j13
View attachment 3766
i would love to see something like this from china
View attachment 3770

once our jf17 manufacturing capability is produced, then we would definately go for inhouse production of 100+j10s, if no other 4.5++ fighter is available

 

[mean_bird]

Another picture of J-10b

 

[hazi]

do the j-10s come with ToT?
and is pakistan going to manufacture any part of the j-10s in pakistan?