Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[sancho]

Thats what they dont get.. from the raptor kills.. to the Chinese sub surfacing near the fleet "undetected".
The US military is underplayed what it has.. There is nothing out there, that will see or beat the raptor.

I disagree Oscar, it's not like the US is the only country in the world that is developing high class weapon systems, they just SPEND the highest ammount of money to develop them and that's why we see more and more modern weapons in their military, but not necessarily the best.
That is one reason why US older Teen series are still considered to be deadly machines, because they will be constantly upgraded, unlike Russian fighter designs for example. But even these upgraded Teens don't hold their own against modern 4.5 gen fighters like the Eurocanards, or modern Flankers and now think about large numbers of stealth fighters with similar advantages in stealth, but possibly better performance. As soon as the stealth advantage is not that clear anymore the performance of the fighters will be important again and that's where the US might get problems with their F35s.

Our US friend tries to downplay the exercises against Rafale and EF, but the reality is, that the results were just one of a chain of similar results against nearly all US fighters. EF and Rafale proved to be superior in Air combats and the F22 exercises showed, how maneuverable they are in close combats.
There is no doubt that the F22 will remain superior, but why? Because of it's advantages in BVR ranges, if any enemy gets into close combat range, it could be even in disadvantage and since modern 4.5 gen fighters often come with features the F22 doesn't have (canards, 3D TVC, high maneuverable IR missiles, HMS), it's not surprising that the US now wants to upgrade the F22 in this regard and we are talking about the most maneuverable US fighter here!
In terms of technology Israelis, Europeans and even Russians offers several products that are superior as well, but they can't spend as much money as the US, one reason why Europeans simply joint F35s instead of developing an own one and some of them already regret it.
Btw, the Chinese subs wasn't the only one that were able to follow US carriers in close distance undetected, which also shows how technology is changing things, because AIP propulsion for example increases the capability even for smaller subs by far.

 

[mjnaushad]

@orangzaib: R u an idiot by birth or U love poking.

If U don't know, I would like to remind U that this thread is been opened to have a descriptive comparison between J 10, Mig 29k and N-LCA. From where have u brought the F22. Since U have poked in :

Look at the video of the reply no. 7 posted by sudhir007 where your own national media has something to say about F 22.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/60944-pak-fa-vs-f22-raptor-detailed-analasis.htmlhttp://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/60944-pak-fa-vs-f22-raptor-detailed-analasis.html

Abdul don't talk baseless. First comprehend properly what I said and then talk precisely.

I am not bringing LCA and neither comparing it with J 10, I am only saying that AESA radar has not been fitted on J 10 nose. It's still under development. If U have any personal problem to accept an example of LCA then take Gripen's example, where again AESA radar is under development or trial not integrated and tested.
And yes nowhere it was stated that AESA radar has been integrated to J 10, it was written J 10b is going to have AESA radar.

Whether J 10 can lock on SU 30 or F 22 that is not the question, the question is the proof which U have failed to provide.

A fighter is not a 4.5 gen fighter if it can produce 100kn of thrust but on whether it's thrust to weight ratio is more than 1. What I am telling that WS 10 is giving the similar thrust what the Russian engine was providing.

And talking about ego, dude atleast I can have ego because we are almost ready with LCA, a 4.5 gen aircraft, once we get F414 engine.

Talking about you, you r not in the race dude,a country which can't make a helicopter thinking about fighter planes.

So from next time if U have need to say anything, first understand what i need to say and then talk, that will make sense. Not simple ranting

you must have lot of information about aircrafts....now spend some time in "Manners of talking" ....

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

Just some correction. the SU-30 does NOT have the rear end 360 degree coverage. Ask someone who's flown one or someone who knows the good, the bads and the ugly's of this plane. BUT, it does have a massive radar that's long range, great speed and agility and massive weapons carrying capacity. But also a huge rcs.

On the other end, the American F-16's (b 40) have had the radar and data sharing capability since the 90's. Its nothing new. heck, f-16 1 can allow f 16 2 to target his target that he may have a lock on by sharing the AAM mode with the other jet. So this one capability is irrelevant

The Su-30MKI version was designed for India. The forward facing NIIP N011M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated Passive Electronically Scanned Array [PESA] radar. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar. The N011M can function in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneously while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial or GPS navigation system. It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features. N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. The radar can track 15 air targets and engage the 4 most dangerous simultaneously. These targets can even include cruise missiles and motionless helicopters. The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least 4 other aircraft. The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 40-50 km. It is speculated that the passive phased array Radar Irbis-E may be added to the fighter jet by 2010, when the first totally Indian-built Su-30MKI will roll out from HAL Nasik.

I think you are living past and self denial they no one else cant do and have it.......

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/su-30.htm

 

[mylovepakistan]

agree with sancho,
nothing is predictable when it comes to WVR,
and F-22 raptor is NO exception here...

Farnborough 2012: “Yesterday we had Raptor salad for lunch” Typhoon pilot said after dogfighting with the F-22 at Red Flag Alaska « The Aviationist

 

[Viper0011.]

agree with sancho,
nothing is predictable when it comes to WVR,
and F-22 raptor is NO exception here...

Farnborough 2012: “Yesterday we had Raptor salad for lunch” Typhoon pilot said after dogfighting with the F-22 at Red Flag Alaska « The Aviationist

Guys - you keep missing the point....the F-22 is NOT designed for a dog fight or within the WVR. You'll never see it getting down to dog fights. That's why we have the F-15, F-16, F-18's, F-35s for. Raptor has a specialized purpose and since no one knows the doctrine, the topic is open for anyone or everyone. You don't put a $ 200 mil plane in a situation that the best marksman or gunner can shoot it. That's a silly idea.
The missiles it uses for WVR are still low range BVRs. It will never come to the dog fighting mode as it's job is different. These links to Typhoon having 'Raptor salad' and Rafale showing FLIR image is all because of friendly exercises that are allowed to see Raptor this close. In fact, the Germans also said that the Raptor has 'unprecedented' capabilities even at WVR. Anyway, I am done explaining as folks here are adamant about the unknown. One example is, in WVR.....your RADAR locks onto the enemy plane so EVERYTHING depends on the Radar or in some cases on the FLIR. Now if your Radar waves or the IR waves were scrambled in a way that the returning image is really 500 meters away from the actual aircraft (and the Raptor doesn't have a strong heat signature).....and that's what you are locking on to...a shadow....who are you really killing? It aint going to be the Raptor. You just fired at a Ghost. There is a reason why this plane will NOT be sold / shared even with the Europeans, Israelis and the Japs. Smart people can draw the conclusion from this statement !!! So I end my last post about the Raptor here.

The Su-30MKI version was designed for India. The forward facing NIIP N011M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated Passive Electronically Scanned Array [PESA] radar. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar. The N011M can function in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneously while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial or GPS navigation system. It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features. N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. The radar can track 15 air targets and engage the 4 most dangerous simultaneously. These targets can even include cruise missiles and motionless helicopters. The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least 4 other aircraft. The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 40-50 km. It is speculated that the passive phased array Radar Irbis-E may be added to the fighter jet by 2010, when the first totally Indian-built Su-30MKI will roll out from HAL Nasik.

I think you are living past and self denial they no one else cant do and have it.......

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/su-30.htm

All the above is known before. Target sharing is something that the introduction of F-16C was doing. And yes, SU-30 is a great plane but it has gaps in coverage. Trust me. Read up on the showdown at Nellis!!

Back to FC-20. Does anyone knows the capabilities of the AESA mounted on it? Range, track and lock capability? etc?

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

can you explain this how su-30mki do that?please coz i see this feature only in the F-35

Russian designers have stated that they believe that the key to dogfight supremacy rests in the pilot's ability to engage the enemy in any position relative to their own aircraft. While TVC permits post-stall maneuvering and pointing which are impossible in conventional aircraft, they are convinced that a rearward facing radar and missiles that can be fired in the aft-quadrant all join to make an unbeatable integrated weapons system.

I think SU30 MKI is as advance as F35 is
The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

All the above is known before. Target sharing is something that the introduction of F-16C was doing. And yes, SU-30 is a great plane but it has gaps in coverage. Trust me. Read up on the showdown at Nellis!!

Back to FC-20. Does anyone knows the capabilities of the AESA mounted on it? Range, track and lock capability? etc?

Well , proved
1) Rear Facing Radar , hence 360 Degree Coverage ( You proved Wrong , it has rear facing radar)
2) Buddy to Buddy Target Sharing ( this is what i have told you, so two plane came make 600 KM coverage
3) Rear Target Accusation and firing,

 

[mylovepakistan]

Guys - you keep missing the point....the F-22 is NOT designed for a dog fight or within the WVR. You'll never see it getting down to dog fights. That's why we have the F-15, F-16, F-18's, F-35s for. Raptor has a specialized purpose and since no one knows the doctrine, the topic is open for anyone or everyone. You don't put a $ 200 mil plane in a situation that the best marksman or gunner can shoot it. That's a silly idea.
The missiles it uses for WVR are still low range BVRs. It will never come to the dog fighting mode as it's job is different. These links to Typhoon having 'Raptor salad' and Rafale showing FLIR image is all because of friendly exercises that are allowed to see Raptor this close. In fact, the Germans also said that the Raptor has 'unprecedented' capabilities even at WVR. Anyway, I am done explaining as folks here are adamant about the unknown. One example is, in WVR.....your RADAR locks onto the enemy plane so EVERYTHING depends on the Radar or in some cases on the FLIR. Now if your Radar waves or the IR waves were scrambled in a way that the returning image is really 500 meters away from the actual aircraft (and the Raptor doesn't have a strong heat signature).....and that's what you are locking on to...a shadow....who are you really killing? It aint going to be the Raptor. You just fired at a Ghost. There is a reason why this plane will NOT be sold / shared even with the Europeans, Israelis and the Japs. Smart people can draw the conclusion from this statement !!! So I end my last post about the Raptor here.

i understand what you are trying to say...US has a plenty of other 4.5 gen jets to thwart any threat...
however,if you give a full read to what the link says...you will find out

Obviously, U.S. fighter pilots could argue that, flying a stealthy plane they will never need to engage an enemy in WVR dogfight, proving that, as already explained several times, kills and HUD captures scored during air combat training are not particularly interesting unless the actual Rules Of Engagement (ROE) and the training scenario are known.

However, not all the modern and future scenarios envisage BVR (Beyond Visual Range) engagements and the risk of coming to close range 1 vs 1 (or 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 etc) is still high, especially considered that the F-22 currently uses AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles, whose maximum range is around 100 km (below the Meteor missile used by the Typhoon).

Moreover, at a distance of about 50 km the Typhoon IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system is capable to find even a stealthy plane “especially if it is large and hot, like the F-22″ a Eurofighter pilot said.

and offcourse a raptor's pilot wont launch the AMRAAM at max. range...

so even if eurofighter manages to spot a raptor at 40-50 km...it can still score a kill..i know raptor has a hell of a lot of electronic counter measures capabilities..but still not an invincible plane...

anyways i think we should come back to J-10...enough of this now...

 

[tony singh]

All the above is known before. Target sharing is something that the introduction of F-16C was doing. And yes, SU-30 is a great plane but it has gaps in coverage. Trust me. Read up on the showdown at Nellis!!

Back to FC-20. Does anyone knows the capabilities of the AESA mounted on it? Range, track and lock capability? etc?[/QUOTE]



At Nellis the Bars radar was not even switched on and the pilots had a high rate of friendly fire as they were not linked up with other AWACS

 

[HeinzG]

and offcourse a raptor's pilot wont launch the AMRAAM at max. distance...

so even if eurofighter manages to spot a raptor at 40-50 km...it can still score a kill..
i know raptor has a hell alot electronic counter measures capability..but still not an invincible plane...

Yes. Raptor pilot will not launch a BVR missile in its maximum range, rather he will launch it within 70-50km range, well away from enemy detection (if possible) but within a range to alert the enemy pilot, so the enemy pilot will execute a defensive maneuver. The modern interpretation for the BVR missile shot is making the enemy go defensive.

Anyways IMO dogfight with Raptor and Euro fighter will probably end in a stalemate.

 

[batmannow]

Yes. Raptor pilot will not launch a BVR missile in its maximum range, rather he will launch it within 70-50km range, well away from enemy detection (if possible) but within a range to alert the enemy pilot, so the enemy pilot will execute a defensive maneuver. The modern interpretation for the BVR missile shot is making the enemy go defensive.

Anyways IMO dogfight with Raptor and Euro fighter will probably end in a stalemate.

Lets all keep in mind that the F22 has yet to see a day in combat, that the F15, F16, And F18 have never faced a foe that was not old Soviet technology and inferior trained pilots. Some might point to the few times a Mig 29 has been encountered, but I would add that those Mig 29s were not the top of the line models, but were cheaper "monkey" models. Is the F15 awesome? yes. why? Because #1 Pilot training. #2 a support structure including command and control, maintenance staff, etc, the likes of which no nation can compare (or afford). #3 A flexible, conventional twin engine design that allowed for much growth and development. I would prefer to compare apples with apples. Could an F15 by itself in an even one on one DOGFIGHT against a top of the line Russian piloted Su 30 still come out on top? IMHO it would be a draw. The USAF pilots are better trained and have more flight time, but the Su 30 is by far the most maneuverable fighter in service, and is far better equipped with phased array radars and target acquisition gear than the F15. And the F15 is experiencing what ALL fighters late in their careers do, creeping weight growth and with it decline in performance. Bottom line is the USAF is like the NY Yankees, they spend more money than anybody else. But that does not always equal a win.

 

[sancho]

Guys - you keep missing the point....the F-22 is NOT designed for a dog fight or within the WVR. You'll never see it getting down to dog fights. That's why we have the F-15, F-16, F-18's, F-35s for.

Wrong, it is designed for air combats, including WVR combats, that's why it was designed to be very maneuverable as well, just like it carries WVR missiles. But the design is not the most maneuverable anymore, the missiles are not up to date anymore, it has no HMS...
The F35 on the other hand has latest missiles and HMS, but was designed for BVR and strikes only, maneuverability is not important and even it's self defence missiles in strike roles are BVR missiles, not WVR missiles. The US air combat policy has simply changed to focus on BVR combat tactics, missiles and electronics, instead of performance of the fighter itself. That's why you soon will have F18SH and F35s bomb trucks in high numbers, instead of F15 and F16 like in the past.

To scare Russia or China with large numbers of Mig 21s and old gen fighters, a few F22 and F117 was more than enough, but a China that soon will have huge numbers of modern 4th and 4.5 gen fighters + high numbers of 5th gen fighters as well, won't be scared to take you on in BVR and WVR combats.

 

[Donatello]

Wrong, it is designed for air combats, including WVR combats, that's why it was designed to be very maneuverable as well, just like it carries WVR missiles. But the design is not the most maneuverable anymore, the missiles are not up to date anymore, it has no HMS...
The F35 on the other hand has latest missiles and HMS, but was designed for BVR and strikes only, maneuverability is not important and even it's self defence missiles in strike roles are BVR missiles, not WVR missiles. The US air combat policy has simply changed to focus on BVR combat tactics, missiles and electronics, instead of performance of the fighter itself. That's why you soon will have F18SH and F35s bomb trucks in high numbers, instead of F15 and F16 like in the past.

To scare Russia or China with large numbers of Mig 21s and old gen fighters, a few F22 and F117 was more than enough, but a China that soon will have huge numbers of modern 4th and 4.5 gen fighters + high numbers of 5th gen fighters as well, won't be scared to take you on in BVR and WVR combats.

That's what i have been saying. This is no longer the China of 1970s. This is 2012. There is a limit to what the USA can do.

Remember Remember the Hainan island incident. That was 10 years ago.

Duh!

 

[Viper0011.]

Moreover, at a distance of about 50 km the Typhoon IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system is capable to find even a stealthy plane “especially if it is large and hot, like the F-22? a Eurofighter pilot said.
and offcourse a raptor's pilot wont launch the AMRAAM at max. range...

so even if eurofighter manages to spot a raptor at 40-50 km...it can still score a kill..i know raptor has a hell of a lot of electronic counter measures capabilities..but still not an invincible plane...

anyways i think we should come back to J-10...enough of this now... .

You know, as MUCH as I would like to get away from F-22 discussion on an irrelevant thread....I find myself STILL responding to things that I already have. Go back to my posts and see that I've already talked about the IRIST and FLIR issue and F-22 lock from 50 Km and below.
Raptor doesn't come to this distance by design. This was a 'friendly and allowed' instance. Raptor takes care of work way before the WVR limit (advance WVR missiles will start to go out to 50 KM soon due to IRIST and FLIR). So I consider this WVR range.
Next thing, you think AMRAAM 120 D and E have the maximum range of 50KM???? I rest my case.
Next, why on the planet would you put a $ 200 mil plane in dog fights where you only need agility and a good gunner for the sake of discussion.......$ 200 mil for a dog fight is similar to putting $ 200 mil in a dumpster putting oil on it and trying to see it the money gets burned or not. Just use common sense guys.
Let's please switch back to the topic.

 

[Viper0011.]

Wrong, it is designed for air combats, including WVR combats, that's why it was designed to be very maneuverable as well, just like it carries WVR missiles. But the design is not the most maneuverable anymore, the missiles are not up to date anymore, it has no HMS...
The F35 on the other hand has latest missiles and HMS, but was designed for BVR and strikes only, maneuverability is not important and even it's self defence missiles in strike roles are BVR missiles, not WVR missiles.

All I can say is...WOW. So you've called me incorrect and all the other waste of time in the story above. But .....have you ever thought that the Raptors have ONLY been produced around 200 in quantity.....??? Read these two lines and then your story about four times. Something will become VERY obvious. Raptor isn't your F-15. It's got a strategic purpose......(yes, air superiority is one of them but it has a strategic role than being your F-15, F-16, F-18, F-35). It will NEVER be produced over a very few hundred. It is a wild card to maintain control over all adverse situations. NOT use it as a daily workhorse of the USAF like the F-15, F-16 and future F-35 will be....
If the above doesn't make sense.....than you should live with your imagination. I won't respond to any Raptor posts anymore as this is not the thread for it.

Oscar seems to be the only person besides a few of my American brethren who has a grasp of the real role Raptor plays. He wrote a few posts and they were all informative.