Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[PakShaheen79]

All this export of Russian engine is OK. we must understand that Chinese are upgrading their gigantic AF with modern machine and they cannot wait for some engine assembly lines to sort out their quality control issues to boost up the production rate. on the other hand, If we look at the planes being produced it also makes good sense. Some of these engines are for replacement only for earlier engines and then we have J-10A, J-11, J-11B, J-10S etc. in active production so i would not consider it bad news. i would rather think it as part of Chinese strategy to maintain the pace of their modernization drive. Certainly, If PAF is going to get J-10B with WS-10B, by any chance, PAF pilots would not accept a new engine without testing it to their satisfaction. So guys, take a chill pill. Everything is on track.

 

[houshanghai]

According to cdf(for your reference only)

1.PAF had signed the agreement which are a modified J10As with AL31FN,PLAAF's first batch of J10Bs will be also equiped AL31FN .but PLAAF second batch of J10Bs will be equiped WS10B(13500kgf) .....The real J10B finalization version are also with WS10B and they will be exported.



2.first batch of 123 AL31FNs cause for short Service life of russian AL31FN and china must be import many new AL31FNs to replace old PLAAF J10As's now. The other parts of these AL31FNs will service for PAF

3.The agreement of second batch of 140 AL31FNs which are't still signed now.but view the situation of beijing airshow 2011 as a whole,russian salut were showing AL31FN model which are less thrust of TVC version(12700kgf) but have longer service life(2000 hours).maybe this shows china will import AL31fn version of longer service life not more thrust version.

4.The current problem of WS-10 that china can't make enough of WS10.but there is a large demand for these high-class turbofan engines in china .So china had to import AL31FNs in large quantities from Russian.

5.however with the development of WS10,which have a production capacity of 200 engines a year as of 2014.China will decrease gradually as quantities of import AL31FNs for J10s

 

[TaimiKhan]

Thursday, October 06, 2011

Big New Chinese Order for Russian Fighter Engines

This news confirms two outstanding rumors -- the PLAAF is not going retrofit its existing SU fleet with the domestic WS-10 Taihang turbofan and the production rate of the WS-10 is not sufficient to cover J-10's production run.


Big New Chinese Order for Russian Fighter Engines
AIN Defense Perspective » October 3, 2011

Big New Chinese Order for Russian Fighter Engines | Aviation International News

by Vladimir Karnozov

Russia has now sold nearly 1,000 AL-31 engines to China, where they power J-10 and J-11 fighters. (Photo: Vladimir Karnozov)
October 3, 2011, 4:45 AM

China has placed additional orders for Russian AL-31-series fighter engines. State arms trade agency Rosoboronexport clinched two big contracts earlier this year. One is for more than 150 AL-31Fs as replacements for earlier engines of same type that power the Su-27/Su-30MKK/MK2 fighters, that are designated J-11 in China. Engines under this contract will be assembled by the Ufa-based UMPO factory.

The second contract is for more than 120 AL-31FN engines to power newly built Chengdu J-10 fighters. Engines under this contract are already being delivered, from the Moscow-based Salut plant.

Speaking to AIN at the Aviation Expo 2011 in Beijing, Salut general director Vladislav Masalov said that negotiations continue on a second batch of nearly 140 AL-31FNs and that a follow-on contract is expected to be signed in October.

Masalov further said that the grand total of Salut-made AL-31 series engines in China “is nearing one thousand units.” To serve them, Salut has established partnerships with Limin Corp. and Tyan Li company in Chengdu on deliveries and manufacturing of spare parts for both the AL-31F and the AL-31FN. Russia has also agreed to provide all necessary maintenance and repair documentation to the Chinese partners. Salut faces many issues pertaining to ramping up production to fill these big Chinese orders, Masalov said. This year the company must increase its production output by 30 to 40 percent to fulfill the Chinese contracts. “Certainly there is some pressure on us, with bottlenecks being metal and vendor items,” Masalov said.

Meanwhile, Salut is negotiating the sale of another 40 AL-31FM1 engines to the Russian Air Force for the Su-27SM upgrade. Twelve have already been ordered. Talks to supply AL-31FM2 versions for the Su-34 continue, Masalov said.


same news with one important point 'highlighted' which means the chinese are not fully satisfied with the WS-10 engine

Doesn't necessarily means that CAF is not satisfied with the WS-10 engine or that its performance is not upto par, may be they are waiting for it to be more matured or as said, they are not able to make them in numbers as it may compromise the quality, since they were facing quality issues, but that was also 2-3years back news, in 2-3 years time things change a lot. WS-10 variant on J-10B(itself a prototype of something new) speaks something else. Hardly anyone will test a new engine which is not supposedly upto par on a prototype jet itself. Since WS-10 is on J-10B means, Chinese are confident of the engine performance that they have added it to a prototype, and then we have the J-20 prototype supposedly being flown with a Chinese engine too, a WS-10 variant supposedly. Both future top of the line Chinese jets being tested in prototype stagewith Chinese turbofan engines of new origin, says that Chinese are confident of their engines performance and reliability, but main issue is are they currently capable to turn out them in numbers, as even the Russian manufacturers being quoted in the article are showing concerns about ramming up production capacity to meet the new order.

Also, can the earlier Russian supplied Su-30s & Su-27s integrate WS-10 is a question to be probed. May be the Chinese modified their local produced J-11's to be integrated in future with WS-10, but am not sure about the Russian ones.

As per my rough estimate, there are atleast 500 or more fighters (300 or so dual engine ones & 200 or so single engined fighters) in the CAF equipped with AL-31 variant engines and replacing them would be one hell of a task, plus Chinese are producing locally J-10s & J-11s in numbers, and Chinese engine may not be upto the mark in the production section to meet that demand for WS-10, thus Russian order is logical.

300 or so Sukhoi's are in service, thus 600 engines alone are needed for them, then add to them the ones needed for reserve, atleast one engine in spare for every 2 engined fighter may be, so if the calculations are done, its a huge task.

In simple terms, WS-10 may have matured enough and gone through all the testing benchmarks, but getting them in production in large numbers may be the task for future, till then AL-31s are the alternate option.

PAF may get the WS-10 equipped jets, since our demand is not in huge numbers, as we would be looking for 2-3 Sqds and at themost may be 1 Sqd per year is inducted.

 

[SBD-3]

Doesn't necessarily means that CAF is not satisfied with the WS-10 engine or that its performance is not upto par, may be they are waiting for it to be more matured or as said, they are not able to make them in numbers as it may compromise the quality, since they were facing quality issues, but that was also 2-3years back news, in 2-3 years time things change a lot. WS-10 variant on J-10B(itself a prototype of something new) speaks something else. Hardly anyone will test a new engine which is not supposedly upto par on a prototype jet itself. Since WS-10 is on J-10B means, Chinese are confident of the engine performance that they have added it to a prototype, and then we have the J-20 prototype supposedly being flown with a Chinese engine too, a WS-10 variant supposedly. Both future top of the line Chinese jets being tested in prototype stagewith Chinese turbofan engines of new origin, says that Chinese are confident of their engines performance and reliability, but main issue is are they currently capable to turn out them in numbers, as even the Russian manufacturers being quoted in the article are showing concerns about ramming up production capacity to meet the new order.

Also, can the earlier Russian supplied Su-30s & Su-27s integrate WS-10 is a question to be probed. May be the Chinese modified their local produced J-11's to be integrated in future with WS-10, but am not sure about the Russian ones.

As per my rough estimate, there are atleast 500 or more fighters (300 or so dual engine ones & 200 or so single engined fighters) in the CAF equipped with AL-31 variant engines and replacing them would be one hell of a task, plus Chinese are producing locally J-10s & J-11s in numbers, and Chinese engine may not be upto the mark in the production section to meet that demand for WS-10, thus Russian order is logical.

300 or so Sukhoi's are in service, thus 600 engines alone are needed for them, then add to them the ones needed for reserve, atleast one engine in spare for every 2 engined fighter may be, so if the calculations are done, its a huge task.

In simple terms, WS-10 may have matured enough and gone through all the testing benchmarks, but getting them in production in large numbers may be the task for future, till then AL-31s are the alternate option.

PAF may get the WS-10 equipped jets, since our demand is not in huge numbers, as we would be looking for 2-3 Sqds and at the most may be 1 Sqd per year is inducted.

Replacement seems an inappropriate idea, I mean if PLAAF is operating such a large number of engines they must have had a decent overhaul infrastructure, Engines would rather be overhauled than scrapped and re imported. Scrapping engines altogether just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Storm Force]

Dont be surprised if the CHINEASE WS engine is not upto scratch to even the RUSSIAN AFL.

Engine technology is difficult to master.

AFTER russia only USA UK and France have this cracked

 

[TaimiKhan]

Replacement seems an inappropriate idea, I mean if PLAAF is operating such a large number of engines they must have had a decent overhaul infrastructure, Engines would rather be overhauled than scrapped and re imported. Scrapping engines altogether just doesn't make any sense.

A 100 or so engines for J-11s & same number for J-10s doesn't means they are gonna be used to replace something, they most probably are for the new ones which are being made and some may be used for replacement purposes too. Plus, overhauled things have a life too, a time comes when overhauling may not give you the results you are looking for and the cost may come close to the cost of a new engine, thus the cost benefit analysis may work in favor getting a new engine instead of overhauling repeatedly.

 

[monitor]

 

[Manticore]

Reports of J-10B jet crash untrue: Air force - China.org.cn October 10, 2011
Reports of J-10B jet crash untrue: Air force - China.org.cn
Recent reports that a Chinese J-10B fighter jet crashed during a trial flight in northern Shaanxi province have been widely spread on the Internet, but Chinese air force officials say it is 'fake news', reported China News Service Sunday.



The alleged rumor, first published by a blogger in Beijing, attracted broad media attention before being denied by air force officials.

The State Internet Information Office has ordered that the website and individual that first published the 'fake news' be punished according to law, said Chinese air force officials.

 

[PakShaheen79]

china acquired IL-76 engine test bed. This must be used extensively for WS-10A/B testing. This is the safest way to test turbofan engines. This is for those who think that China test turbofan engines on fighter jets in active PLAAF service

T first picture of the new Il-76 engine testbed is shown here. The aircraft was modified from a former Russian Il-76SKIP/Be-976 missile tracking aircraft (serial # RA-76456). The modification including the removal of the radar system took place in 2004 at the LII Flight Research Institute and the aircraft was handed over to China in mid-2005. The inner engine on the port side has been converted into an engine testbed, an arrangement similar to Russian Il-76LL engine testbed variant. Two large wingtip pods were retained which now might house engine monitoring instrument. Two small pods of unknown purpose (camera?) can be seen attached to the rear fuselage. The IL-76 engine testbed (serial # 76456/760) has entered the service with CFTE, replacing the old Tu-16 engine testbed. The aircraft is expected to be used for testing the new WS-10 series turbofan engines.

 

[vce]

Replacement seems an inappropriate idea, I mean if PLAAF is operating such a large number of engines they must have had a decent overhaul infrastructure, Engines would rather be overhauled than scrapped and re imported. Scrapping engines altogether just doesn't make any sense.

PLEASE NOTE: the total life of basic version of AL-31F/FN is only 1500 h, time between overhauls(TBO)-500h,far short than the airframe life.

http://www.npo-saturn.ru/index_b3.php?act=showfull&id=1215429686&sat=7
...По сравнению с двигателями АЛ-31Ф в 2-2,6 раза возросли ресурсные показатели. Межремонтный ресурс увеличился с 500 до 1000 часов. Ресурс до первого капитального ремонта - 1500 часов. Назначенный ресурс увеличился с 1500 до 4000 часов.

 

[Manticore]

Exercise of 2 J-10 against 6 Su-27

credits-no name

 

[Kompromat]

Who won ? ^^

 

[abaseen99]

China Defense Blog: October 2011

 

[SBD-3]

Exercise of 2 J-10 against 6 Su-27

credits-no name

Gosh.....do you think there would have been like this?..

 

[cloneman]

FWS-10(A?) in seria production,look at the gear box at the bottom.This is FWS-10 version for the J-10.