Chand dheaki k maslay per NASA ka jawab

[BRAVO_]

@criticalerror

Physical sighting of the moon is not a religious obligation, observing fasts during Ramazan is
Please stop spreading misinformation

this is the most meaningful post ....thanks brother .. you nailed it

 

[M. Sarmad]

I said his example is of apples and oranges since one has to do with Jurisprudence and the other with a religious obligation (Ramzan Fasting). Don’t know what you are on about.

Well, Rape is a Hadd offence under Islamic law and carrying out its punishment is a divinely enforced religious obligation. So, it's not 'apples and oranges' as you are trying to claim here.

And as I posted on the other thread what your favorite Taqi Usmani had to say on this subject (but you keep ignoring it):

"... this is not an issue which has been specifically mentioned in the Holy Qur'an or Sunnah in express terms but it is a matter of Ijtihad.."

So, Please stop trying to pass off the opinion/Interpretation/Ijtehad of Ulema as the words of Allah and his messenger (PBUH)

 

[criticalerror]

Well, Rape is a Hadd offence under Islamic law and carrying out its punishment is a divinely enforced religious obligation. So, it's not 'apples and oranges' as you are trying to claim here.

And as I posted on the other thread what your favorite Taqi Usmani had to say on this subject (but you keep ignoring it):


So, Please stop trying to pass off the opinion/Interpretation/Ijtehad of Ulema as the words of Allah and his messenger (PBUH)

Yeah please read your own example quoted

"... this is not an issue which has been specifically mentioned in the Holy Qur'an or Sunnah in express terms but it is a matter of Ijtihad.."

In the absence of categorical prohibition, the learned people may do so. Not every tom , dick and harry. The same Maududi said moon sighting is the Sunnah and should be maintained. You can’t cherry pick. “Do not Fast until “ is categorical prohibition.

So, Please stop trying to pass off the opinion/Interpretation/Ijtehad of Ulema as the words of Allah and his messenger (PBUH)

Take your own advice. Would give it more weight.

Also would you like to start our debate from the beginning? You ve tried atleast thrice.

 

[criticalerror]

KSA model is best on this ... they use science and calendar for estimation but announce it based on physical sighting as per tradition ...

And I totally agree with their model. This is EXACTLY the model i am arguing in favour of.

 

[The Accountant]

And I totally agree with their model. This is EXACTLY the model i am arguing in favour of.

Lolz ...

But how to handle popalzai as i feel that people like him will continue to create problems

 

[M. Sarmad]

Yeah please read your own example quoted
.

And what makes you think that I quoted it without reading it (or without reading your posts)? ... You are just evading all counter-arguments by falsely claiming that they are irrelevant (or context bound)... This won't prove you right, my friend..

In the absence of categorical prohibition, the learned people may do so. Not every tom , dick and harry. The same Maududi said ...

So, for the first time you have admitted the absence of categorical prohibition... Good, you are learning!
And no, I didn't quote Maududi, I quoted Taqi Usmani.

Take your own advice. Would give it more weight.

Let me remind you my friend that not even once have I tried to pass my opinion off as words of Almighty. You have tried to do so repeatedly, that's why that bit of advice for you..

Also would you like to start our debate from the beginning? You ve tried atleast thrice.

No, I won't. ... I don't need to

In a few decades from now, people would be laughing at the illiterate Mullahs of the past (and their followers) who declared using lunar calculations to determine Ramazan days as 'Haram'... The same way as we deride those Mullahs today who had declared the use of loudspeakers, telephones, trains, television and whatnot as 'Haram' a few decades ago.... It's just a matter of time... Ever since the times of Ghazali, traditionalists and orthodox Muslims have been anti-science and anti-progress... They always have failed to halt the progress of Muslims but they make it slower and difficult.

 

[criticalerror]

Lolz ...

But how to handle popalzai as i feel that people like him will continue to create problems

You deal with him like Musharraf did.

 

[criticalerror]

And what makes you think that I quoted it without reading it (or without reading your posts)? ... You are just evading all counter-arguments by falsely claiming that they are irrelevant (or context bound)... This won't prove you right, my friend..

You can deflect all you want friend. If you use opinions of scholars in your arguments , the same scholars are unanimous in moon sighting.

So, for the first time you have admitted the absence of categorical prohibition... Good, you are learning!
And no, I didn't quote Maududi, I quoted Taqi Usmani.

Your attempts are getting more laughable as we progress. I already showed you categorical prohibition. Then you start debating a new tangent totally ignoring that.

Let me remind you my friend that not even once have I tried to pass my opinion off as words of Almighty. You have tried to do so repeatedly, that's why that bit of advice for you..

I have not. That’s your go to when you have no arguments left. As was proven multiple times in our verbal sparring. The moment you run out of arguments, you will start crying “Oh you pass of Ulema opinions as the word of Allah.” Whereas i have maintained that it is the opinion of learned people on the Words of Allah. As i said, laughable.



[QUOTE="M. Sarmad, post: 11519949, member: 150591"
No, I won't. ... I don't need to

In a few decades from now, people would be laughing at the illiterate Mullahs of the past (and their followers) who declared using lunar calculations to determine Ramazan days as 'Haram'... The same way as we deride those Mullahs today who had declared the use of loudspeakers, telephones, trains, television and whatnot as 'Haram' a few decades ago.... It's just a matter of time... Ever since the times of Ghazali, traditionalists and orthodox Muslims have been anti-science and anti-progress... They always have failed to halt the progress of Muslims but they make it slower and difficult.[/QUOTE]

If you don’t need to, then don’t start your arguments afresh.

 

[VCheng]

In a few decades from now, people would be laughing at the illiterate Mullahs of the past (and their followers) who declared using lunar calculations to determine Ramazan days as 'Haram'.

In a few decades? It is happening already, and for quite some time too.

 

[M. Sarmad]

You can deflect all you want friend. If you use opinions of scholars in your arguments , the same scholars are unanimous in moon sighting.

This was about a relevant example of a Hadd crime quoted by another member that was rejected by you as 'irrelevant', it wasn't about scholars and their opinions, ... Talk about deflection ??

And no, you are WRONG. Scholars do not hold 'unanimous' opinion regarding the sighting of the moon.
Try again

Your attempts are getting more laughable as we progress. I already showed you categorical prohibition. Then you start debating a new tangent totally ignoring that.

The only thing getting more and more laughable here is your lame excuses and desperate attempts to defend the Mullahs/indefensible

I have not. That’s your go to when you have no arguments left. As was proven multiple times in our verbal sparring. The moment you run out of arguments, you will start crying “Oh you pass of Ulema opinions as the word of Allah.” Whereas i have maintained that it is the opinion of learned people on the Words of Allah. As i said, laughable.

Yes, the way you use word 'proven' is laughable indeed....

 

[criticalerror]

This was about a relevant example of a Hadd crime quoted by another member that was rejected by you as 'irrelevant', it wasn't about scholars and their opinions, ... Talk about deflection ??

It was as relevant as apples are to oranges . I have already given my argument on this.

And no, you are WRONG. Scholars do not hold 'unanimous' opinion regarding the sighting of the moon.
Try again

Saying something is WRONG without proof is not a valid argument. Try again.

The only thing getting more and more laughable here is your lame excuses and desperate attempts to defend the Mullahs/indefensible

You mean to say like lame attempt to discredit my argument by attributing it to illiterate Mullahs? Whereas i have quoted either scholars opinion or Hadeeth. To which you say the Word of Allah is only the Quran. Yet you have the audacity to reignite the debate as if i have forgotten our last merry go-round. *slow clap*

Yes, the way you use word 'proven' is laughable indeed....

Yeah proven. Otherwise you wouldn’t escape the debate not once but twice.

 

[Imran Khan]

 

[M. Sarmad]

It was as relevant as apples are to oranges . I have already given my argument on this.

It was absolutely relevant as it too had a bearing on a religious obligation (i.e the punishment of Hadd crime). You don't even have an argument on this other than your usual 'Mein na Manun' rhetoric.

Saying something is WRONG without proof is not a valid argument. Try again.

You are the one making the claim so the burden of proof lies with you. Learn the basics at least.
Try again

You mean to say like lame attempt to discredit my argument by attributing it to illiterate Mullahs? Whereas i have quoted either scholars opinion or Hadeeth. To which you say the Word of Allah is only the Quran. Yet you have the audacity to reignite the debate as if i have forgotten our last merry go-round. *slow clap*

And now you are simply lying.

You claimed that 2:185 was about moonsighting and I posted a 14 page commentary to prove you wrong. Then you insisted that the Hadith you mentioned categorically prohibited using lunar calculations to replace the physical sighting of the moon, to which I replied that it was only one interpretation of that Hadith and many scholars disagreed with it. I quoted what Taqi Usmani had to say on this matter as you yourself had been quoting Taqi Usmani to prove your point!

I thought you were better than that, but I was obviously wrong

Yeah proven. Otherwise you wouldn’t escape the debate not once but twice.

You have no argument, you are just insisting that the Hadith in question must be interpreted literally. But when you were told that the literal interpretation of Islamic texts had some serious implications, and that you couldn't have it both ways, you had no answer to that other than your usual 'context', 'apples and oranges' and 'relevance' nonsense....... And yes, the way you use word 'proven' is laughable indeed...

 

[shah_123]

How do you sight the moon with cloud cover/bad weather etc? Complications already added to your solution and way to much room for human error.

The scientific solution is the best and most credible one.

We go with the sayings of Prophet Muhammad saw' in such a situation i.e complete 30 days.

 

[criticalerror]

It was absolutely relevant as it too had a bearing on a religious obligation (i.e the punishment of Hadd crime).You don't even have an argument on this other than your usual 'Mein na Manun' rhetoric.

No it wasn’t relevant. Read again what i said. One is related to Jurisprudence the other to establish a religious obligation. Hadd is a matter of justice/Jurisprudence and in a different class to Fasting.On the contrary, it is you who’s doing the “Main mansa taan” buffoonery.

You are the one making the claim so the burden of proof lies with you. Learn the basics at least.
Try again

The burden of proving me wrong is on you since i already provided fatwas to this effect. Try even harder.

And now you are simply lying.

You claimed that 2:185 was about moonsighting and I posted a 14 page commentary to prove you wrong. Then you insisted that the Hadith you mentioned categorically prohibited using lunar calculations to replace the physical sighting of the moon, to which I replied that it was only one interpretation of that Hadith and many scholars disagreed with it. I quoted what Taqi Usmani had to say on this matter as you yourself had been quoting Taqi Usmani to prove your point!

I thought you were better than that, but I was obviously wrong

Very nice of you to skimp on the important details with a rose-tinted version of events. I said it was about moon sighting according to some scholars. You said there are no scholars who say as such. I provided proof thereof(Sahih International being one) . To which you said she is a recent convertee(as if that is an argument). Don’t lose me now it gets weirder. I provided Maududi’s interview where he very obviously was of the view that moon sighting is essential. You brushed that off since you had nothing to say on it. All the while i maintained this Ayah in tandem with Hadeeth says moon sighting is necessary. Also please go back and read what Taqi Usmani said on moon sighting. Also I might add , you don’t believe Hadeeth to be proof enough, which is quite plain and simple. This stance is vindicated by majority of the scholars(much more learned people than you or I).

I couldn’t care less what you think of me. I am not here for internet brownie points. Might be a motivation for you but not for me.

You have no argument, you are just insisting that the Hadith in question must be interpreted literally. But when you were told that the literal interpretation of Islamic texts had some serious implications, and that you couldn't have it both ways, you had no answer to that other than your usual 'context', 'apples and oranges' and 'relevance' nonsense....... And yes, the way you use word 'proven' is laughable indeed...

If i had no argument you would not have ended with “this may be your opinion but I disagree “. That is a stare whereby you ran out of counter-arguments.
I have made all the arguments in which both times you are the one to concede without a counter-claim , that what i discussed is my opinion but you don’t agree. Fair enough. Don’t agree. But don’t begin the discussion ab initio as if nothing has been said. Plenty has been said on everything. Plenty of valid arguments provided. You deny Hadeeth (atleast the Sahih ones i quoted). There is no debate to be had after that.