Case for Su-34 as MMRCA

[Ind4Ever]

Why have a single-role fighter that requires escorts for such a crucial role when you can have multi-role fighters requiring no escorts? The days of single role fighters being commonplace are over, the IAF will be (as they should be) inducting only multi-role fighters henceforth.

But it's one of the best in Deep strike bombings . Let's say a bombing mission Let me explain why I prefer both . but note this force of Rafael is for F3 which we don't want French to sell for mmrca...

...... Equipped with this configuration, two Rafale aircraft represent the same potential as six Mirage 2000 class aircraft

This configuration comprise a full increment of six air-to-air and six air-to-ground weapons. The air-to-ground ordnance includes six Sagem/MBDA Hammer guided weapons (AASM), carried on two triple-ejector racks, designed specifically for the weapon. The AASM is deployed with one of three optional guidance methods utilizing a GPS guided, laser homing or thermally guided seekers. To extend its range the Hammer is also equipped with a rocket booster. Four MICA air-to-air missiles and two very long range Meteor missiles will be complementing the fighter’s air-to-air capability. The MICA missiles are operational and can be employed with IR or radar guided. These Meteor missiles are yet to enter service – but they are expected to be fielded with the F3-R variant by 2018. In addition to that impressive weapons complement, Rafale will retain its Nexter 30M791 30 mm internal cannon, firing 2500 rounds/min. According to the manufacturer, equipped with this configuration, two Rafale aircraft represent the same potential as six Mirage 2000 class aircraft.

In the current configuration Rafale carries two Scalp cruise missiles or four direct attack weapons (Hammer/laser guided bombs), with our MICA air-to-air missiles. : French Air Force

Now let's look at this Su34 beast . Remember this can be upgraded with 5th Gen characteristic like proposed Su35S

....... incredible crew ergonomics, where both members could work in a shirtsleeve, pressurized, side by side environment for maximum crew coordination. Further, designers included a chemical toilet, a galley and even a bed down area just aft of the main cockpit for long endurance missions. Also, seeing as Russia has always lagged behind in systems integration and man-machine interface, the side by side seating would help compensate for those deficiencies. Another area where the Fullback differs from the Flanker is in the very back. The tail cone is much elongated to house a rear warning radar to enhance the crew’s situational awareness as well as to compensate for the total lack of rearward visibility imposed by the side-by-side cabin configuration. Also the landing gear is very heavy-duty for rough field operations under heavy takeoff weights and allows more clearance for the attachment of massive cruise and anti-ship missiles. Also of note are the canard foreplanes, similar to those on the carrier borne SU-33. These foreplanes help compensate for the massive nose as well as offering enhanced trimming at transonic speeds.
Although the Fullback retains much of the SU-27′s legendary maneuverability, the aircraft is a bit limited in comparison when it comes to top end speed, due to a fixed intake system instead of the Flanker’s maneuvering intake system. This is hardly a factor though as rarely would an aircraft like this need to speeds above mach 1.5, if even that. No doubt the biggest positive factors in the Fullback’s design come down to fuel volume, loadouts and adaptability. In the SU-34 Russia has a large aircraft that can strike deep into enemy territory with loads of guided munitions, while defending itself when egressing into and out of the battlefield. In the SU-34 it also has a fantastic long range anti-ship weapon delivery system via the Kh-55 Kent ASM missile and even an anti-AWACS missile delivery system via the KH-31 “Krypton” anti-radiation missile.
Although these are roles that not even the F-15E is slated to cover, the SU-34′s potential is so much more than that. Due to its massive size and crew design the Fullback could make one hell of a standoff jammer, something closely along the lines of the US’s prematurely retired EF-111 “Sparkvark,” an Electronic Warfare (EA) and Suppression/Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD/DEAD) platform without comparison. Furthermore, because of its unique frontal “platypus nose” design, the SU-34 has a MASSIVE radar aperture to work with. This frontal real-estate is absolutely priceless when it comes it AESA (ActiveElectronically Scanned Array) radar technology, as the larger the aperture, the more transmit and receive modules can be installed and more power brought to bare, vastly increasing detection ranges and resolutions. Further, such an array can work as an electronic attack weapon all its own, frying enemy electronics or even transmitting massive amounts of data over huge distances. It could even act as a mini AWACS (Airborne Warning And Control System) with such a large AESA, sending targeting information to other players remotely via data link. Another area where the SU-34 is very well suited for is in the maritime patrol mission. The aircraft’s long-range and room for missionized equipment, even its long tail boom where a Magnetic anomaly Detector (MAD) could be installed, along with its radar mapping and attack capabilities could make for a ground breaking tactical sea control platform. Finally, the SU-34 could be one hell of a tactical tanker, filling up its hard points with fuel tanks instead of missiles and bombs would allow the big fighter-bomber to haul one massive amount of fuel to refuel a transiting attack package all the way to the target and back while also providing offensive counter air and even electronic attack support for the strike package.
The massive internal fuel volume of the airframe allows Fullback to cover regional distances without performance and air defence compermised

In case we are really looking at a fighter bomber why not postpone our purchase to say closer to 2030 when our deep strike platforms are closer to retirement. Surely Mirages now have another 15 years and Darin III will help us also for 12-15 years. By then perhaps a 5th generation fighter bomber may be available or may be unveiled like PAK -DA. Perhaps IAF may able to have a doctrine which may use such strategic assets.

what do we even have to retire? Jags are too old with very less playload. we dont use Mirage for deep strike missions . They were carried out by jags and Mig 27 . We need Su34 kind of fighter bomber if we are seriously thinking about taking on China. Yes we have Su30 but it's also a Multirole with limited Bombing missions and more air superiority. Since we are looking to operate some 270 su30 we won't face difficulty to maintain Su34 . And even think that any future Indian aircraft will have this range and playload Capacity.

 

[ptldM3]

The photos in this article are ancient. The SU-34 is similar to the F-111, it is basically a light bomber/strike aircraft with limited air-to-air. The MMRCA is supposed to be a light multirole aircraft.

SU-34 light bomber/strike aircraft.
SU-30 multirole aircraft
SU-35 air superiority
SU-27 air superiority

 

[Ind4Ever]

The photos in this article are ancient. The SU-34 is similar to the F-111, it is basically a light bomber/strike aircraft with limited air-to-air. The MMRCA is supposed to be a light multirole aircraft.

SU-34 light bomber/strike aircraft.
SU-30 multirole aircraft
SU-35 air superiority
SU-27 air superiority

Su 34 advanced Russian 2-seat fighter-bomber. It is intended to eventually replace the Sukhoi Su-24 and the Tupolev Tu-22M More than 200 will be added to replacement 300~ Su24 and tupolev 22M Bombers.

Why it's an impressive choice for India?

All these fighters were created of some purpose in mind! For their threat perception But very ironically today India need the same capabilities such as 4000 km range, Deep strike, range of missiles from anti land and Anti ship missiles for much bigger and better enemy.

For that the Su-34 has an active-safety system with artificial-intelligence elements. This system enables the plane to execute just about any stunt and combat maneuver and to fly at near ground level at a maximum speed of 1,400 km/h (765 kts). The Su-34 can also fly in TERCOM (Terrain Contour Matching) mode, bypassing unexpected obstacles and streaking through ground air-defense zones. The plane's crew can therefore conduct effective bombing runs, take evasive action, destroy enemy weapons and steer clear of missiles and anti-aircraft shells. Making it The King of Multi Role aircraft .

What not? The Su-34 ordnance load includes subsonic and supersonic homing missiles and glider bombs, can destroy hardened and well-camouflaged targets at a range of up to 250 km. The airplane has enlarged capacity internal fuel tanks for practical unrefueled flight of 4,000 kilometres (2,160 nm). With three refuelings, the Su-34 is capable of covering a distance of more than 14,000 kilometres (7,560 nm). The onboard electronics engineering ensures the flight crew with a full information about parameters of flight and enclosing space, condition of onboard systems and power plant, purposes in an air on ground, on surface of water and under water, about means of radar-tracking detection and REF of the opponent, about AD and degree of threat, created by them concerns to one from the important features of a new airplane. In addition, the Su-34 features a rearward facing radar capable of detecting, tracking, and directing R-73 or R-77 AAMs at pursuing enemy aircraft.

An operational mission for the Su-34 begins with a mission planning period that loads into the aircraft's two main computers the coordinates and elevations of every navigation and mission-dependent point from takeoff to landing. At each coordinate-point or time-hack, automatic switching of modes can be accomplished so that the pilots can be hands-off or involved with other parts of the mission. Data link with command aircraft, ground stations, and command ships will be maintained and where line-of-sight limits are reached these communications resort to satellites for expanded coverage. Mission updates can be passed by higher authority anytime during the flight. All types or tactical and strategic ordnance can be utilized with emphasis being placed on long range standoff weapons such as the Kh-59 Ovod/Kh-59ME cruise missiles, Kh-29 & Kh-31 anti-radiation weapons, Kh-35 Uran anti-ship weapon, and the Kh-41 Moskit long range anti-ship missile.

Difference between Su30mki and these beasts...

Unlike the earlier Su-27, the Su-34 has a modern glass cockpit, with colour CRT multi-function displays. Its avionics currently are based around a Leninets V004 passive electronically scanned array radar, and a UOMZ laser/television system for designating and guiding precision-guided munitions. The front-mounted radar is supplemented by a rear-aspect V005 radar housed in the long tail "stinger". The Su-34 is equipped with comprehensive ECM equipment, including an infrared missile launch detection system.

The avionics suite has an extended architecture of computers, memory boards, color multi-function displays, and processors designed as self-contained information processing modules. They consist of large "Argon" digital computer units with specially programmed processors that use multiplex data-exchange channels. All information modules are controlled by a dual central computing system that fully coordinates workload and provides all relevant information to the flight deck. Two-way data link enables the mission planning and weapon aim-point computations to be loaded or updated while in flight or aircraft to aircraft. As a penetrating attack aircraft, the Su-34 incorporates an advanced multi-function phased array radar capable of terrain following and avoidance for high speed, low level operations.

The Su-34's most distinctive feature is the unusually large flight deck. Much of the design work went into crew comfort. The two crew members sit side by side in a large cabin, with the pilot-commander to the left and navigator/operator of weapons to the right in NPP Zvezda K-36dm ejection seats. An advantage of the side by side cockpit is that duplicate instruments are not required for each pilot. As long missions require comfort, it has pressurization that it allows to operate up to 10,000 metres (32,800 ft) without oxygen masks, which are available for emergencies and combat situations.[14] The crew members have room to stand and move about the cabin during long missions.[15][16] The space between the seats allows them to lie down in the corridor, if necessary.[14] A small toilet and a galley are located behind the crew seats.[14][15]

A long-range surveillance radar, passive detection systems, system of communication for tactical and strategical voice and data in a single platform with long-range capacity with flight refuelling, transform the Su-34 into a way of monitoring and recognition in real time and platform of command and control, forming a complete battle management system.

If I was Mr.Modi by now I could have signed deal for upgraded Su34S just to keep Chinese infrastructure in check. The message will be clear Mutual Destruction of Installation. But we need Rafale for different purpose. it's medium multi role so has no chance to take Su34 place. But for IAF rafale gives advantage over any Chinese aircraft and ground radar Sam system . 124 Rafale + 50-60 Su34 will complete our Strike fighters requirement and future replacement developed over the same platform with improvement

 

[Ind4Ever]

You are missing one big point here.

For Chinese, it is easier to get hold of Russian secrets than from family controlled dassault.

Consequently, when it comes to EA equipment, I would really like to get western stuff.

I don't know why people are not not for the super hornet as an option anymore.

Remember, it comes with growler. The baap of all small medium sized EA aircrafts.

Australia has them ? Why ?

As a countermeasure to the Chinese. Nobody else has got growlers this side of the world.

Not exactly ! Even if Chinese get hold of lots of Sell off or rip off technology. And their know how about Russian fighters. so we must go for west etc all are crap. We think about buying Su35 is not good because Chinese will know about their secrets. !!!! and so on. For God sake we use Su30MKI against China which has the same aircraft technology + reverse engineering of Sukois too. So Su30MKI is OK when used against Chinese? what a rubbish remark. All Russian fighters belives in coat effective , easily made, easily maintained with maximum firepower . So they also focused on Missiles technologies too. If read some doccumentary about Su24 you will see how Americans failed every time to compete with the Russians on aircraft and missiles . Mig21 ruled the skies in it's time, Mig 29 an amazing medium small fighter with multirole capabilities . Which gave birth to Americans F16s .
Su27 and su 30 broadly influenced American fighter jet programs from f15 to Raptor. F22 finally achieved superiority over Su27 and 30s only in later stage. So don't think bad about Russian Technology. which is really misinformed. We won all wars with Russian technology only. So going for improved engines and innovation products in Avionics, radar would make Russian the hot sellers. They focus on their own gameplane which involves raw force and power while west involved in Stand of range weapons so they don't have to go for dog fight with Russians which has clear superiority over the skies. Now India can afford money, technology from west and hardware from Russians and can make a formidable beast .

 

[Ind4Ever]

Dude, mig29 didn't give birth to f16, but the other way around.

EA today is huge part of bvr. Why usa wins air superiority every time is not because of f15s or f16s or amraams alone.

It has got a lot to do with the domination of airwaves which the bulky EA aircrafts do from safe distance apart from awacs.

The problem with su24 or su34 is, India doesn't have a mass bombing policy. Taking out of enemy infrastructure today is more cost effective with cruise missiles. Air launched or land launched.

Su34 is a very very wrong idea for India because rest assured those two pilots may succeed in their missions, but they ain't coming back.

Simple cost effective and easy to maintain is 1980s. Doesn't work that way anymore. Now it's complicated simplicity in its smallest form.

If cruise Missiles are better or not. It won't change anything of IAF or other airforce. These missiles are just few bullets coming out of a barrel. Airforce will have to be ready for any event.

And is there any force which claims India don't belive in mass bombing ? If true this has yo be changed. what a moronic deterrent ! Before Pakistan was our only major threat but Today we have China with very vast area to cover. How jags and Mig 29 will bomb Beijing ?

And why these pilot won't return? I don't understand. With it's range 4000 km with internal fuel and 7000 km with three external fuel flying at the height of 10000 km. These SU34 WILL BE A GHOST IN THE SKIES .

so dont compare Rafae/ su34. Both are must needed for IAF. This whole 5th Gen stories will take 10 years steady to mature enough to replacement 4++ GEN fighters. infant to have balls to replace all the 4 Gen aircraft with 5 Gen fighters which are partially available. It's like we are still in Agni 1 missiles but we know we will reach to Agni 5 after many years.

So rafale is for Multi role and Su34 for china specific Large Fighter Bombers. Su30 mki for Air dominance, This will go for another 20 years before 5 Gen technology with much matured and trusted platform. Right now no one know the real capabilities RAPTOR or PAKFA or F35 or J20 or J31. It's a long long way to go for actual missioproven

 

[Ind4Ever]

I would Rather that India spend the money on more rafales. And we can come up with an even smaller brahmos that we can mount on rafales.

Why they won't be coming back ?

Cause it will be shot down once discovered. They can probably go unnoticed and drop their bombs. But after that, the Chinese already have the equipment to chase an su34 down. Fighters, sams, both. It can go unnoticed 6000 kms, it can't defeat another air superiority fighter and fly back to safety evading the Chinese sams 6000 kms. The advantage of surprise is lost.

A rafale can. Cause it is designed to defeat the very weapons Russia ergo China makes. Case in point, spectra. Chinese can buy all the frequency channels and loopholes from Russian at the drop of a hat today. It can't from dassault.

How are you sure it won't be hacked or know how about rafales ? When Egypt will get hold of it with every details? In the age of hackers, soft loans ,secret spies and dealings no fighters are gone unnoticed by others adversaries. As per your point China or pakistan can out match Indian Su30 just because they know how it's works? Come-on now.

As I said 124 or 64 more rafale are good for IAF. But to strike deep inside China We need very high altitude high range high playload fighter Bombers. It's all new game now. SCS is our new playground to keep China out of IOR. With rafale we could take care of whole of Pakistan and border areas of Tibet. We need Su34 for different missions and very different role. so don't compare both. Apples and oranges

They are capable of defending themselves with 2 or more BVR during the missions . with two radars in front and back. With special abilities to fire missiles back Ward with back radars will allow pilots to control and directing of the missiles. Our IOR region need Su34 for first in the line of defence to engage invading fleet from very long distance

 

[sancho]

Why have a single-role fighter that requires escorts for such a crucial role when you can have multi-role fighters requiring no escorts? The days of single role fighters being commonplace are over, the IAF will be (as they should be) inducting only multi-role fighters henceforth.

ALL Su 3... are multi role fighters, with the same base design, the same wings, the same number of hardpoints, the same payload, the same A2A weapons and even most of the A2G weapons are the same, since they all retain the Flanker base!

The Su 34 has a multi mode radar too, carries R77 BVR and R73 WVR missiles, the canards adds to it's low speed manuverability and it's EW system is state of the art too.
If you take the F15 Strike Eagle, re-design it's cockpit section to a side by side config and add EA capabilities to replace F111 or Prowlers, you would have an US version of the Su 34, but it still will be an F15 base of course.

The only point that people confuse the Su 34 as just a strike fighter, or even a bomber is, that the Russians took the same base fighter and geared them towards 2 different roles mainly, but that doesn't mean that you can't do strikes with the Su 35, nor does it rule out A2A combats with the Su 34.

Apart from that, BS article!

 

[Ind4Ever]

How am I sure ? Cause, they don't even give france an inch on their core terms.

Don't be so naive my friend.Some how every one will know their enemies capabilities with lots other means. So don't be upset if it's true.

It's not a Russian company riddled with people willing to sell out at the drop of a few thousands of dollars. dassault is a family owned French firm. China has to hack it out of them. That won't be easy. Considering what we are talking about.

That's what am telling if normal citizens like u and me discussing about many weapon systems dont you think every country in yhe world will try to profile their enemys weapon system ?

I agree with your need for a deep bomber. But I do not agree with the choice of the fullback. I would say, rafale is a better choice for us and we will be getting what we pay for provided the deal is a reasonable one.

Rafale is a better choice yes -1) Because of it's Spectra Suit which will be used effectively for ground attack 2) because if its less RCS which can used effectivly for air dominance . 3) Wide range of missiles and Aesa radar 4) And it's all Comes with ToT. etc etc. Good for IAF .

But Su34 is a heavy fighter Bombers
1) Because with tarrain hugging capabilities and very advanced EW suits it can fly just above the surface at 1.5 mach and so evades enemy radars after diving down from high altitude for it's missions. 2)It's better to have because it's long range radar and wide ranges of weapons with capacity to carry 12 T playload makes it a terror in the skies. 3)Due to it's radar and sufficient software it allows these jets to carry long range Anti Radar, Anti Ship missiles. 4) With the range of 4000 km with internal fuel and 7000 km with 3 external fuel it becomes the most potent weapon against China. As now they know we can strike their cities even without missiles. and we can control our IOR with much more power

If the deal doesn't work out, I would say open up another line for lca and get the pakfas early.

If we are to induct another huge aircraft like flanker, it better be the pakfa. Not the fullback. IMHO, dude.

Forget about LCA it will take steady 2018-19 for first squadron and 2022 for fight worthy fighters. And yes PAKFA could be a good choose. but again Su34 out match in long strike bombing raids. We can wait for AMCA to arrived to replace Mmrca. Till then going for cheaper and powerful heavy fighters for next 8-10 years will don't no harm. Just invaded MMRCA scraped.

 

[airmarshal]

Is Su-34 being considered a replacement for Rafale or in addition to Rafale?

I would still say Rafale is a better deal with better technology. Also, with negotiations in such advanced stage on Rafale, I dont think any party can backtrack.

This Su-34 looks huge and unwieldy. I dont think its a comparison to Rafale.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Is Su-34 being considered a replacement for Rafale or in addition to Rafale?

I would still say Rafale is a better deal with better technology. Also, with negotiations in such advanced stage on Rafale, I dont think any party can backtrack.

This Su-34 looks huge and unwieldy. I dont think its a comparison to Rafale.

dude it has Bio toilet, bedding area where one pilot can sleep. enough space to stand and free your self.

 

[airmarshal]

dude it has Bio toilet, bedding area where one pilot can sleep. enough space to stand and free your self.

Does it also have a living room? Lol.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Does it also have a living room? Lol.

but you have huge cabin with food storage facilities. it might sounds funny but it's whole new dimensions . Love to see in IAF colours. but sadly asusual our politicians won't get this point!!!

 

[sancho]

Ok. So, @sancho if we are to go for a flanker based plane once again, why not just upgrade the flankers That we have. Why go for another aircraft altogether ? Within the flanker family, I mean..

Who said we would go for another type? There is no chance that we will go for Su 35 or 34, no matter what the media is speculating, or the Russians might offer us. The MKI simply is the perfect mix that fits right between the Russian pair, since it's aimed on balanced multi role capabilities, to be equally good in A2A and A2G. It might not be on the same level as the Su 35 in A2A, or as the Su 34 in A2G, but it's the Flanker varient that is the closest to both. So IF IAF would go for more Flankers, it will be upgraded MKI's!
However, they are no alternatives to MMRCA's, since Flankers are heavy class fighters, so we would by more MKIs only in the worst case scenario, if MMRCA as a tender fails completely.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Dude, we don't have Russia's length and breadth to safeguard. They need that stuff. We honestly don't.

Don't know what ia you idea on our threat we are facing.
Now.

SU34 is in different league. Not sure IAF will go for these but if it does them it's very clear message send to China.

 

[sancho]

SU34 is in different league. Not sure IAF will go for these but if it does them it's very clear message send to China.

Mission 1 - Brahmos cruise missile attack against an high value target in the Tibet region.

Su 34MKI - load config

Centerline - Brahmos missile
Inner wingstation - BVR missile or additional A2G weapon
Mid wingstation - BVR missile
External wingstation - WVR missile
Wingtip - ECM pod

Crew - 2 pilots
Approach - gain high altitude and speed, to provide Brahmos with maximum range and impact


Same mission with an upgraded Su 30MKI:

Centerline - Brahmos missile
Inner wingstation - BVR missile or additional A2G weapon
Mid wingstation - BVR missile
External wingstation - WVR missile
Wingtip - ECM pod

Crew - 2 pilots
Approach - gain high altitude and speed, to provide Brahmos with maximum range and impact


Mission 2 - EA role to protect a strike package

Su 34MKI - load config

Centerline - High power jamming pod
Intake station - BVR or anti radiation missile
Inner wingstation - anti radiation missile
Mid wingstation - BVR missile
External wingstation - WVR missile
Wingtip - ECM pod

Crew - 2 pilots
Approach - gain high altitude to lure the enemy to activate radar and air defences, as well as gain advantages in target attacking or jamming.


Same mission with an upgraded Su 30MKI:

Centerline - High power jamming pod
Intake station - BVR or anti radiation missile
Inner wingstation - anti radiation missile
Mid wingstation - BVR missile
External wingstation - WVR missile
Wingtip - ECM pod

Crew - 2 pilots
Approach - gain high altitude to lure the enemy to activate radar and air defences, as well as gain advantages in target attacking or jamming.

I could go on with CAS, carpet bombings, anti ship attacks..., but the fact that both fighters have the same base, will use the same weapons and systems in the same manner, by 2 pilots won't change. The Su34 has it's advantages and in certain roles, they will be useful but it's certainly not in a different league in A2G, while that could be said about the A2A advantages of the Su 30MKI compared to the Su 34.