Can Muslims be Secular Liberal?

[I.R.A]

You are either a Muslim or you are NOT.

A Muslim should respect others' beliefs and protect their places of worship and decide their matters according to their laws. (secular)

A Muslim should be open to new discoveries / inventions and should be keen and open to learning new knowledge. (liberal and free)

Obviously I don't think too much about stereotypes attached to these words, but shouldn't Muslim posses both these qualities?

 

[Destranator]

What do yawl think, please post for and against!

Thanks


This is for educational purposes only.

It is always relative. ISIS considers Al-Qaeda and Taliban to be "secular liberals".

 

[HammerHead081]

I dont understand why people here are so alienated by the word Secular. Pakistan was literally secular from 1947-55, as in, all religions had equal importance/value. Afterwards, Islam was made as the state religion and that was end to secularism. I mean don't you want to live in a country where every person be he/she is religious or not, is given equal rights? That is basically secularism, being given equal rights irrespective of your religion.

Being a secular person again means that you treat all the people equally irrespective of their religion and that is something important to not only being a muslim but being a good human being.

Liberalism? Now thats an entirely different topic.

 

[Vapnope]

What do yawl think, please post for and against!

Thanks


This is for educational purposes only.

Please define secular and liberal before the answer to this question can be given.

Also do you think that article 248 of the constitution is islamic or not?

 

[313ghazi]

Indonesia,Turkmenistan,Azerbaijan,Turkey,Kazakhstan,Albania, Bosnia, Jordon,Senegal, and a dozen more absolute Muslim majority countries in the world who consider themselves secular republics
So vast majority of Muslim countries in the world are largely secular in nature

Or if Pakistanis are better Muslims than vast majority of Muslims countries around the globe
Than that's another thing

Muslims and Muslim countries can be secular and Liberal - the real question is should they be?

The answer is no. There is overlap between Liberal political ideology and Islam - but there is also elements that are incompatible; particularly for a state.

I'll give you an example.

Freedom of worship is a Liberal political value which is in alignment with Islamic principles.

Tolerance of the lifestyle choices of others is a Liberal political value which is in alignment with Islamic principles.

Does that mean you can have gay marriage in an Islamic society? No. Homosexuality is something that is forbidden in our religion. As individuals we have no business in the matter but the state has to be responsible for applying and enforcing those Islamic values and principles that have a societal impact.

In an Islamic state, homosexuality could only be tolerated behind closed doors. Any public acknowledgement or acceptance of homosexuality as a lifestyle choice would be contradictory to the values of Islam and gay marriage would be equivalent of state endorsement of a haram act.

So you see we end up with these differences in values.

The other thing is liberal values change with time and location. A few years ago liberals would support my right to halal slaughter, today liberals label me a barbarian for it. Islamic principles have generally been pretty solid.

Then comes secularism. As individuals we can be Muslims and live in a secular state. There is no problem with that. As the leader of a Muslim country - if you are failing to apply Islamic values and principles in your society - you have failed your religious obligations.

It's not always about models of governance, these evolve over time with whatever is effective - the crux of the matter is that Muslim leaders are required in Islam to implement and apply those Islamic laws that have a societal impact. For example the collection and distribution of zakat, welfare services, defence, education including Islamic education, law and order, justice etc.

People always jump to assume that the role of Islamic governance is to strip you of representation, enforcement of worship, dress codes and all sorts of trivial non issues simply because we see this at the hands of a few barbarians and dictators.

I dont understand why people here are so alienated by the word Secular. Pakistan was literally secular from 1947-55, as in, all religions had equal importance/value. Afterwards, Islam was made as the state religion and that was end to secularism. I mean don't you want to live in a country where every person be he/she is religious or not, is given equal rights? That is basically secularism, being given equal rights irrespective of your religion.

Being a secular person again means that you treat all the people equally irrespective of their religion and that is something important to not only being a muslim but being a good human being.

Liberalism? Now thats an entirely different topic.

That's not quite secularism is it though? Secularism is the strict separation of state from religion.

As individuals we can function perfectly normally in secular states. In a Muslim majority country which is secular, the only people failing thier religious obligations in a secular states are the Muslim head of States.

See my post for details of my thoughts.

Threads like these, including one where the bloke was asking if Girlfriend Boyfriend relationship is better than Marriage, has convinced me 110% that in the next 50-years, the religion of Islam will be dead in Pakistan or it will be so mutilated by such donkeys that it will be nothing like the original. You are either a Muslim or you are NOT. There is NO MIDDLE GROUND.

It would be a sad end but it is coming very, very quickly. Remember, God doesn't need Donkeys like you to defend his religion, HE WILL FIND WAYS AND OTHER PEOPLE TO DO THIS. But as far as Pakistan is concerned, it will be coming to its logical end in this country !!

The posts in this thread are more unfortunate. It's a shame so many see Islamic governance as enforcement of personal religious responsibility.

 

[313ghazi]

A Muslim should respect others' beliefs and protect their places of worship and decide their matters according to their laws. (secular)

A Muslim should be open to new discoveries / inventions and should be keen and open to learning new knowledge. (liberal and free)

Obviously I don't think too much about stereotypes attached to these words, but shouldn't Muslim posses both these qualities?

Please see my earlier post on the subject, but basically what a lot of people are doing, and I fear you might also be doing - is confusing what secularism, liberalism and Islamic governance is.

 

[HammerHead081]

In an Islamic state, homosexuality could only be tolerated behind closed doors. Any public acknowledgement or acceptance of homosexuality as a lifestyle choice would be contradictory to the values of Islam and gay marriage would be equivalent of state endorsement of a haram act.

The Quran says, "to you your beliefs and to me mine...there is no compulsion in religion".

Muslims have no obligation to stop the spread of LGBT rights.

We do however have a responsibility to voice our beliefs, which make clear that homosexuality is a sin.

That's not quite secularism is it though? Secularism is the strict separation of state from religion.

As individuals we can function perfectly normally in secular states. In a Muslim majority country which is secular, the only people failing thier religious obligations in a secular states are the Muslim head of States.

I dont agree. Secularism just says to make country religion-less. As in not only having laws that protect muslims but every single person irrespective of his religion.

 

[khail007]

Muslim means the one who resigned/submit himself to ALLAH SWT. One who submits to ALLAH SWT against his own will and follows the Quran and sayings/actions of Mohammad (PBUH).

 

[dBSPL]

Unfortunately there is no passport control at the gate of heaven and there will be no mass-pass event. Each individual will be responsible for theirself and their actions.

Blessed are those who can suppress their hatred and other worldly ambitions. The important thing is to work for that moral virtue, and the place for this is not a forum where there is ideological polarization at high and micro-nationalist people showing theirselves as savior of Islam.

There is nothing else that harms Islam as much as the Takfiri understanding... " hey these are infidels, the members of this nation/belief will not be able to go to heaven anyway, these are fake Muslims", etc... Everyone sees himself as having enough authority to make a judgment on this issue... But who gave you this right?

 

[I.R.A]

Please see my earlier post on the subject, but basically what a lot of people are doing, and I fear you might also be doing - is confusing what secularism, liberalism and Islamic governance is.

The powerful in the world today have everyone fooled, they took the idea from Islamic way of governance and gave it a bit infidel touch. The only difference is in Islam a state can't be Godless, and it has to be a welfare state.

 

[313ghazi]

The Quran says, "to you your beliefs and to me mine...there is no compulsion in religion".

Muslims have no obligation to stop the spread of LGBT rights.

We do however have a responsibility to voice our beliefs, which make clear that homosexuality is a sin.


I dont agree. Secularism just says to make country religion-less. As in not only having laws that protect muslims but every single person irrespective of his religion.

Regarding homosexuality - Muslim individuals don't have any responsibility to enforce anything. Our role is limited to ourselves.

The state has an obligation to prevent the normalisation of haram. Just as murder is haram, tax avoidance is haram, fraud is haram, theft is haram, homosexuality is haram. The state has no business in the acts of 2 individuals in private - but is obligated to act where the propagation of something haram occurs. So 2 men could be gay, they could be known to be gay, but as long as they're not telling others to be gay, or doing public displays of affection etc - then the state has no role. I specifically mentioned marriage as that would be a state endorsement of haram. We have to be careful where we draw the line. The state is only responsible for acting if something has a societal impact.

This OTT approach to it that our modern barbarians take probably has more to do with thier own urges and hiding them than anything else.

Secularism by definition is about the separation of state and religion. What you mention about equality is not due to secularism but due to basic values of humanity and good governance.

Is it our misfortune that what passes of Islam today in our country is in contradiction to its values. That is because those responsible for teaching it and implementing it are lacking in humanity and are alien to good governance.

Most societies in the world are better run than us.

 

[SIPRA]

By definition, a Muslim, who professes himself to be secular, by certain interpretation or redaction, would still be regarded as Muslim, unless he clearly denounces Islam.

 

[Shehryar Ashraf]

Look, there was a time when it was fashionable to be secular and liberal in the Islamic world.
Attaturk and the republic of Turkey was seen as a possible model of Secularism and Liberalism.

There were secular liberal rulers in Gamal Adel Nasser and the formation of the United Arab Republic, which was a secular state under the principles of Pan Arabism.
Ultimately those secular liberal rulers failed, catastrophic defeat in the 6 days war and the failure to beat Israel in the Yom Kippur war meant the death of secularism and liberalism in the Arab World.

Similarly pakistan had a secular, liberal government in Ayub Khan. His failure to liberate Kashmir in 65, and the loss of East Pakistan soon after, was the death blow to secularism in Pakistan. as a result we got Bhutto and then Zia. Hence Secularism failed in Pakistan.

We had a secular, liberal ruler in Iran, the Shah of Iran. We also had secular, liberal governments in Afghanistan. both were installed by the US. which ultimately discredited the concepts of Secularism. It also did not help that both were massively incompetent. now we see a revolutionary Shia government and the Taliban in charge.

 

[313ghazi]

The powerful in the world today have everyone fooled, they took the idea from Islamic way of governance and gave it a bit infidel touch. The only difference is in Islam a state can't be Godless, and it has to be a welfare state.

Agree. They say that in the end times holding onto faith will be like holding onto a hot coal. I am beginning to understand why.

The essence of our faith is alien now. Look at the example of the leadership class, look at the so called Islamic models they implement, look at the lack of character and poor state of the education of the so called scholars.

All our role models, all our teachers, all our implementations of governance are inadequate and inferior to the standards of most of the world as well as the high standards our faith demands.

When we can no longer differentiate Islam from the whims of dictators and the biases of so called scholars and teachers - who really wants to adhere to what is left?

Unfortunately there is no passport control at the gate of heaven and there will be no mass-pass event. Each individual will be responsible for theirself and their actions.

Blessed are those who can suppress their hatred and other worldly ambitions. The important thing is to work for that moral virtue, and the place for this is not a forum where there is ideological polarization at high and micro-nationalist people showing theirselves as savior of Islam.

There is nothing else that harms Islam as much as the Takfiri understanding... " hey these are infidels, the members of this nation/belief will not be able to go to heaven anyway, these are fake Muslims", etc... Everyone sees himself as having enough authority to make a judgment on this issue... But who gave you this right?

These people have stained our understanding of Islam. They did more damage to Islam than the Soviet Union did by completely banning religion.

Islam survived the ban of the Soviets and survived in the hearts of the Muslims of Eastern Europe and central Asia.

What these Jahil extremists have been doing is a cancer and is removing Islam from hearts of Muslims.

 

[Verve]

What do yawl think, please post for and against!

Thanks


This is for educational purposes only.

Get educated on Quran first and foremost and then Hadith ... we are to be Muslim ONLY, not Muslim Brelvi, Deobandi, Shia, Sunni, Secular, Liberal, Commie etc added after it. If you call yourself a Muslim Secular Liberal, basically you become part of that sect!