Can India make Fifth Generation fighters? All depends on Kaveri engine's developmen

[ashok321]

https://www.oneindia.com/india/can-...s-on-kaveri-engine-s-development-2674151.html


India is keen to develop a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). Many would say that it is an unrealistic expectation as India took decades to develop first indigenous fighter LCA Tejas which is a single engine, single seat and multi role fighter. And even for Tejas, India was not able to build its own engine which is the main power house for any Fighter jet.

The main hurdle in developing a Fifth Generation fighter is the engine which should be able to deliver the performance needed for an advanced aircraft. India has long been working on Kaveri engine project and it was actually this engine that was supposed to be fitted in LCA Tejas. However, the Kaveri programme failed to satisfy the necessary technical requirements or keep up with its envisaged timelines and was officially delinked from the Tejas programme in September 2008.

With the Indian Air Force (IAF)’s depleting squadron size, the pressure mounted on the HAL to deliver LCA Tejas early. So the Tejas’ which have been inducted into the service so far have the US manufactured General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 afterburning turbofan engine.


The AMCA 5th Generation Stealth Fighter Project ::

The AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft) is being developed by an aerospace industry team which consist of Aeronautical Development Agency as a design firm and is to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). AMCA would likely to be a a single-seat, twin-engine, stealth super-maneuverable all weather multirole fighter aircraft.

AMCA should not be confused be with a separate FGFA programme which is a co venture between the Russians and HAL, so it is not an indigenous project. The FGFA project with Russia would be able to roll out fifth generation aircrafts by 2020.

AMCA is totally different since it will completely be made by India. But for it to become a reality, the development of Kaveri engine is crucial. DRDO will look to develop many of its 5th generation systems ingenuously, so tentatively it should be ready around 2025. Some say that project may also get delayed upto 2030.

A source close to OneIndia said that projects do not get delayed because HAL lacks expertise. It happens because of numerous other external factors. One of the reasons he said was inability of political leadership to take a stance whether India wants defensive approach to deal with the enemies or an offensive one, which he said confuses those in the DRDO. He also said that by the time DRDO/ HAL develops a technology, the requirements of the IAF changes.


Kaveri Engine and expectations from it: ::

The GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri, is an afterburning turbofan project developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a lab under the DRDO in Bangalore. The Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) decided to wind up the Kaveri engine (GTX-35VS ) programme in November 2014 due to its shortcomings, a decision that will be finalized by the DAC. The GTRE is now running two separate successor engine programmes, the K9+ programme and the K10 programme. France has offered to help India revive the unsuccessful Kaveri engine project. An upgraded Kaveri engine with 90 kN thrust compared to the existing 72 kN can be developed with French cooperation which can eventually be used for Tejas which currently uses an American engine.

In theory the AMCA will be powered by a domestically manufactured Kaveri K9 or K10 engine, currently undergoing development by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment. But making powerful and reliable jet engines from scratch is hard. Only after the Kaveri engines are ready, supposedly in 2019, can the serious work on the airframe really begin.

Proposed upgraded Kaveri engine will be a 90kN thrust class engine which will be marginally more powerful than GE supplied F404-GE-IN20 engine which is currently generating 84kN thrust . Ideally for Kaveri engine should be able to deliver 95 Kn thrust.

Finally, the ADA and HAL will need to produce sufficiently powerful turbofan engines to meet performance specifications. This is further complicated by the need for an S-shaped air intake that will shield the reflective turbofan blades from showing up on radar, as well as specially designed nozzles to reduce the heat signature of the engines from infrared sensors.

 

[Tumba]

kaveri will eventually be successful, India does not lack the resources or skill sets to create a modern jet engine.

 

[ashok321]

kaveri will eventually be successful, India does not lack the resources or skill sets to create a modern jet engine.

Why is India involving France then?
Because India lacks the basic of engine block building.
There are many richer nation than India who would love to make them, but they simply can't.
This is the most complex technology which even the Germans lack.
Its not good if you brag in favor of India on this.
Nobody would lend any credence to your above post.
Jingoism might be good in selective cases - certainly not here.

In 2030, if at all India made their Fifth Generation fighter, you will see a sixth generation fighter jet in the market. So India would not dominate any impact on fighter industry for long. India lacks crucial technologies, that are not even obtainable as ToT from western nations who are privy to them. This is their bread n butter.

 

[ashok321]

so a madarassa educated fool like u knows more than a mettulurgy engineer who actually interned in ADRE.

France is being involved in because they has countless number of hours running thr own engines and resolving issues.
India either can learn and speed up development of kaveri otherwise when kaveri gets resolved in a decade or so. It would have already become obsolete.
This is how it works everywhere you learn from a master. What do u think chinese r doing.

This is what happens when you don't have adequate to deliver - you resort to name calling a la >> so a madarassa educated fool like u type.

However, your insults are like a shit to me, I drop them every day.

You are reported and ignored hereafter.

 

[Tumba]

This is what happens when you don't have adequate to deliver - you resort to name calling a la >> so a madarassa educated fool like u type.

However, your insults are like a shit to me, I drop them every day.


View attachment 464837

You are reported and ignored hereafter.

haha
how one is supposed to discuss Adaptive Versitile Engine Technology with someone who probably does not even know what is a jet lol

 

[rambro]

Possible only with heavy assistance from other countries who have already developed their own 5th gen (only 1 country here minus russia/china) which comes with heavy-handed strings attached + constant data-link back to lockheed + kill-switch :3

or just maybe perhaps When others have gone to 7/8 gen

 

[Figaro]

https://www.oneindia.com/india/can-...s-on-kaveri-engine-s-development-2674151.html


India is keen to develop a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). Many would say that it is an unrealistic expectation as India took decades to develop first indigenous fighter LCA Tejas which is a single engine, single seat and multi role fighter. And even for Tejas, India was not able to build its own engine which is the main power house for any Fighter jet.

The main hurdle in developing a Fifth Generation fighter is the engine which should be able to deliver the performance needed for an advanced aircraft. India has long been working on Kaveri engine project and it was actually this engine that was supposed to be fitted in LCA Tejas. However, the Kaveri programme failed to satisfy the necessary technical requirements or keep up with its envisaged timelines and was officially delinked from the Tejas programme in September 2008.

With the Indian Air Force (IAF)’s depleting squadron size, the pressure mounted on the HAL to deliver LCA Tejas early. So the Tejas’ which have been inducted into the service so far have the US manufactured General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 afterburning turbofan engine.


The AMCA 5th Generation Stealth Fighter Project ::

The AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft) is being developed by an aerospace industry team which consist of Aeronautical Development Agency as a design firm and is to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). AMCA would likely to be a a single-seat, twin-engine, stealth super-maneuverable all weather multirole fighter aircraft.

AMCA should not be confused be with a separate FGFA programme which is a co venture between the Russians and HAL, so it is not an indigenous project. The FGFA project with Russia would be able to roll out fifth generation aircrafts by 2020.

AMCA is totally different since it will completely be made by India. But for it to become a reality, the development of Kaveri engine is crucial. DRDO will look to develop many of its 5th generation systems ingenuously, so tentatively it should be ready around 2025. Some say that project may also get delayed upto 2030.

A source close to OneIndia said that projects do not get delayed because HAL lacks expertise. It happens because of numerous other external factors. One of the reasons he said was inability of political leadership to take a stance whether India wants defensive approach to deal with the enemies or an offensive one, which he said confuses those in the DRDO. He also said that by the time DRDO/ HAL develops a technology, the requirements of the IAF changes.


Kaveri Engine and expectations from it: ::

The GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri, is an afterburning turbofan project developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a lab under the DRDO in Bangalore. The Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) decided to wind up the Kaveri engine (GTX-35VS ) programme in November 2014 due to its shortcomings, a decision that will be finalized by the DAC. The GTRE is now running two separate successor engine programmes, the K9+ programme and the K10 programme. France has offered to help India revive the unsuccessful Kaveri engine project. An upgraded Kaveri engine with 90 kN thrust compared to the existing 72 kN can be developed with French cooperation which can eventually be used for Tejas which currently uses an American engine.

In theory the AMCA will be powered by a domestically manufactured Kaveri K9 or K10 engine, currently undergoing development by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment. But making powerful and reliable jet engines from scratch is hard. Only after the Kaveri engines are ready, supposedly in 2019, can the serious work on the airframe really begin.

Proposed upgraded Kaveri engine will be a 90kN thrust class engine which will be marginally more powerful than GE supplied F404-GE-IN20 engine which is currently generating 84kN thrust . Ideally for Kaveri engine should be able to deliver 95 Kn thrust.

Finally, the ADA and HAL will need to produce sufficiently powerful turbofan engines to meet performance specifications. This is further complicated by the need for an S-shaped air intake that will shield the reflective turbofan blades from showing up on radar, as well as specially designed nozzles to reduce the heat signature of the engines from infrared sensors.

I highly doubt India has the capability to make a Kaveri engine. AFAIK, they cannot even design/manufacture single crystal super-alloys or powder metallurgy disks. It might as well be a French engine assuming they transfer some of their M88-2 technology ... which is highly doubtful.

 

[KapitaanAli]

AMCA program has no dependence on Kaveri. We made that mistake once with Tejas. AMCA has multiple options, with the earlier prototypes confirmed to sport F414.

Kaveri is surely an achievement, costing not even a billion. Most other non-turbine countries would use it like China did with their low performing engines.
But just not good enough.

 

[Figaro]

AMCA program has no dependence on Kaveri. We made that mistake once with Tejas. AMCA has multiple options, with the earlier prototypes confirmed to sport F414.

Kaveri is surely an achievement, costing not even a billion. Most other non-turbine countries would use it like China did with their low performing engines.
But just not good enough.

I don't think China uses "low performing engines" in their fighters ...

Possible only with heavy assistance from other countries who have already developed their own 5th gen (only 1 country here minus russia/china) which comes with heavy-handed strings attached + constant data-link back to lockheed + kill-switch :3

or just maybe perhaps When others have gone to 7/8 gen

I don't know which is more difficult : an indigenous Indian Kaveri or a AMCA prototype. Both sound leagues out of India's arms industry ...

 

[艹艹艹]

 

[KapitaanAli]

I don't think China uses "low performing engines" in their fighters ...

China was willing to use their crap engines until they matured. As a result, now they've more dependable engines, but yet to perfect. It's a compliment.

Meanwhile India doesn't provide even one fighter to the program which has delivered a great design. The whole program costs just over half a billion dollars and it works, just not to the requested power due to lack of most sensitive tech.
Even the Safran help will be worth a few billions now.

 

[ashok321]

@Figaro

Modians have plenty of jingoism on their table and plates. I let them digest.

However, on Kaveri, nothing is clear (as for as terms are concerned) from any source as to what would be the outcome of India France technology co-operation on Kaveri. These government documents are never made public. Whatever bits & pieces of information we get, we get them from the press who quote their anonymous sources.

Coming to common sense and conventional wisdom, for France to part away with crucial engine technology and deliver its entire ToT to India on a silver platter is hard to believe.

Technologically, China is notch better on such technology than India, yet they have not mastered it, despite them having world class jet engine making technology equipments and testing beds & jigs that India lacks. Imagine that a country like Germany is interested to lay their hands on them by way of imports.

Following piece is for Modian braggarts jingoists:

It is easier said than done. Talk is cheap because the supply exceeds the demand.
Can the 500 pound Sumo wrestler do the tightrope walk?
Yes.
But has one ever seen it?
Lol

Thats the case with Modians who come running here at the drop of the hat to protect Indian/saffron/RSS interests for nothing, considering the fact that India is not an advanced country, a country which lacks number of technologies, a country which has financial constraints and so on.

Enough said.

 

[Tumba]

haha house pdf experts discussing jet engine tech. lol

 

[Counterpunch]

I don't think 'ALL' depends on the development of engine. If it were so, Tejas would only have engine problems and perfected all other aspects and we are talking about Tejas. 5th Gen is an altogether different ball game

 

[Papa Dragon]

haha
how one is supposed to discuss Adaptive Versitile Engine Technology with someone who probably does not even know what is a jet lol

Why do you wanna entertain a bangladeshi false flagger. He is one among the illegal immigrants who jumped the fence and tried to obtain Indian citizenship during the corrupt congress regime but his entire family has been sent back with the crackdown of NDA govt, no wonder he is anti Modi. He achieved the feat of being ignored the most on PDF and you should consider doing the same