Burqa rage: In a first, veil ripped off in France

[Kompromat]

Its Nice to hear , Muslims Deserve this kind of treatment for being Muslims.

 

[Pasban]

Wearing full Islamic veil could land women in 'citizenship' school

Women living in France who are caught wearing the full Islamic veil in public may be sent to mandatory “French citizenship courses” if supporters of a controversial bill get their way.

The text of the bill would make it illegal for people to wear any item of clothing which hides their face in public places. The obvious target of the proposed law are some two thousand Muslim women in France who don the head-to-toe religious garment.


According to justice minister Michèle Alliot-Marie, who drafted the bill, “the full Islamic veil challenges the values that we share and the very principles according to which we live together.”

The ban would not be limited to full Islamic veils, but would exclude specific items, such as facial coverage imposed by safety regulations (helmets for motorcycle drivers or masks for construction workers), and those worn on special occasions (costumed carnivals).

Foreigners, notably wealthy tourists from Gulf (The gulf has a name, it is the Persian Gulf) states, would also be affected by the ban.

Women wearing a full face veil in public could be hit with a 150 euro fine. But the bill stipulates a much harsher penalty for men found guilty of forcing their wives or daughters to cover their face: a one-year jail sentence and a 15,000 euro fine.

Citizenship school

In addition, the bill also proposes that fully-veiled women receive “French citizenship” courses to “inform or remind them of the values of the French republic”.


“The courses are aimed at helping women who wear the full veil understand the reasons behind the ban,” Eric Raoult, an MP for the ruling centre-right UMP party told FRANCE 24.

Raoult, who participated in a parliamentary commission on the Islamic veil earlier this year, stressed that the courses would be designed to “inform women about their rights”.

“The small minority of women who wear the full veil in France live relatively isolated from society. They don’t always know that the principle of equality between men and woman is fundamental in France. We need to tell them that if their husbands or fathers force them to do or wear anything they don’t want to, the law is on their side,” he said.

According to Raoult, the course would also focus on the negative effects of wearing a full veil in various practical situations. “A woman’s field of vision and hearing is impaired by the full veil. This can lead to dangerous situations while driving, or even when crossing a busy street”, the MP explained.

Raoult also brings up the potential security risk of people hiding behind a full veil while engaging in criminal activity, such as shoplifting or robbing a bank.

Another lesson would focus on France’s long tradition of secularism, and why religious symbols are barred from public institutions like schools, government offices and hospitals.

Resistance from jurists and some Muslims

The bill is expected to go before parliament in July, where it should face some resistance despite French lawmakers' unanimous resolution of May 11 condemning the burqa as “contrary to the values of the French republic”.

The Socialist opposition has drafted an alternative text restricting the ban to official state buildings and government offices, citing repeated warnings from the powerful State Council that a ban in all public spaces may be deemed unconstitutional.

“We fear that you will go too far”, socialist MP Jean Glavany told the justice minister at the National Assembly on May 11. “We must defend the Republic with wisdom and perspicacity”.

If and when the bill is signed into law, a six-month period of “mediation and pedagogical encounters” would seek to convince women to shed the full-face veil voluntarily.

Debate over the full veil ban has prompted warnings from various Muslim organisations, which say the legislation could stoke tensions within France’s six million-strong Muslim community.


"Rather than enacting a law barring women from expressing their malaise, we should think about what prompted them to want to cover themselves," Mohamed Moussaoui, the head of France’s Council of the Muslim Faith, told lawmakers in early May.

Last March, Belgium’s lower house of parliament voted to ban the wearing of full Islamic veils in public, making it the first country in Europe to enforce such a restriction.

France24 - Wearing full Islamic veil could land women in 'citizenship' school

 

[OptiFictious]

LONDON: Taking offence at the attire of a fellow shopper, a 60-year-old lawyer ripped off a Muslim woman's burqa in a clothing shop, in what is being described by the police as France's first case of rage against the Islamic veil.

During a weekend shopping trip the woman lawyer had an argument over the attire following which the pair came to blows before being arrested. The incident happened due to growing racial tensions in the country, as France prepares to introduce a total ban on burqas and other forms of religious dress, which cover the face, the Telegraph reports.

The woman lawyer made snide remarks about a 26-year-old Muslim convert's burqa while walking through the store in Trignac, near Nantes, in the western Loire-Atlantique region, the paper said on Tuesday.

At one point the lawyer, who was out with her daughter, is said to have likened the Muslim woman to Belphegor, a horror demon character well known to French TV viewers. Belphegor is said to haunt the Louvre museum in Paris and frequently covers up his hideous features using a mask.

A police officer close to the case said: "The lawyer said she was not happy seeing a fellow shopper wearing a veil and wanted the ban introduced as soon as possible."

"The shop manager and the husband of the Muslim woman moved to break up the fighting," the officer said. All three were arrested and taken to the local gendarmerie for questioning.

A spokesman for Trignac police said that two complaints had been received, with the Muslim woman accusing the lawyer of racial and religious assault. The latter, in turn, had accused her opponent of common assault.

The French parliament has adopted a formal motion declaring burkas and other forms of Islamic dress to be "an affront to the nation's values". A ban, which could be introduced as early as the autumn, would make France the second country after Belgium to outlaw the Islamic veil in public places.

But many have criticized the anti-burqa lobby, which includes the French president Nicolas Sarkozy, for stigmatising Muslim housewives.

Burqa rage: In a first, veil ripped off in France - Europe - World - The Times of India

As mentioned, she is a muslim convert, so people giving accounts of muslim immigrants being conservative should reconsider their argument. This ongoing debate on banning veil totally senseless, in fact a step towards muslim segregation in europe. What if, tomorrow they start to either be one of us or leave, thats what happened in Andalusia.

 

[Awesome]

Well it is said "When in Rome Do as the Romans do".

If she has decided to live in France she will have to comply with the rule of Law. If she cannot follow it, Go back to your country

Its not like she was arrested for wearing the burkha, she was attacked with blows physically. If the lawyer had such a problem about enforcing the law, she should have called the police.

Muslim women observing their right to be fully clothed cannot be attacked.

Especially given that unlike in 99% of all Muslim countries where women can wear trousers, in France the women can't wear trousers by law. That law is never enforced, why the over zeal only against Muslim women?

 

[Pasban]

Do we have other members from France on this board? I would like to gather a consensus of opinion regarding the bill from them. I am a French Iranian myself.

I have very mixed views regarding the bill. I see the Neqab (face veil) as being more of a cultural symbol and I do not associate it with Eslam. I am a religious person and as per my studies and understanding, Eslam does not require the entire face to be covered/ hidden. Thus I personally have no qualms whatsoever over the ban on the Neqab only. I would support it in fact.

However, I find some elements of the bill to be extreme (for instance the fines and classes). Moreover, it could be argued that limits are being defined in free expression. The issue is being more politicized then necessary. I think France has made a point though, rather than some other countries which are trying to find more politically correct niches. But France is seemingly putting forward a message that goes beyond the few hundreds or so that use it.

 

[Hyde]

Its not like she was arrested for wearing the burkha, she was attacked with blows physically. If the lawyer had such a problem about enforcing the law, she should have called the police.

Muslim women observing their right to be fully clothed cannot be attacked.

Especially given that unlike in 99% of all Muslim countries where women can wear trousers, in France the women can't wear trousers by law. That law is never enforced, why the over zeal only against Muslim women?

Whatever Asim,

If they banned the Burqa (and i find nothing wrong in it), She must comply with the rule of law. Its their country let them decide how they want to live.

Why do illegal things in first place? If you have decided to live in France, you should accept/comply with its constitution as well. France is not a free country, it is one of the most racist country of Europe where nobody is treated equally (IMO). Like you said even wearing trousers is not allowed by Law and whatever France is, the last question always comes in my mind is if she is willing to live in France she must do as the French are demanding her to do.

Enforcing the law is another issue but if there is a LAW, comply with it.

 

[Canaan]

Do we have other members from France on this board? I would like to gather a consensus of opinion regarding the bill from them. I am a French Iranian myself.

I have very mixed views regarding the bill. I see the Neqab (face veil) as being more of a cultural symbol and I do not associate it with Eslam. I am a religious person and as per my studies and understanding, Eslam does not require the entire face to be covered/ hidden. Thus I personally have no qualms whatsoever over the ban on the Neqab only. I would support it in fact.

However, I find some elements of the bill to be extreme (for instance the fines and classes). Moreover, it could be argued that limits are being defined in free expression. The issue is being more politicized then necessary. I think France has made a point though, rather than some other countries which are trying to find more politically correct niches. But France is seemingly putting forward a message that goes beyond the few hundreds or so that use it.

Hussein, I live in Denmark and they discussed a ban on Burka vigorously for months and tensions were high and the tone against muslims very sharp, but in the end they conducted a research that found out that nobody in all of Denmark wears it. I think it shows that the whole idea is of symbolic value and feeding on irrational feelings singling out muslims and that's even against the constitution.
So by trying to pass such laws, nobody actually dies from them (we hope) but this way the state now engages in anti-islamic sentiment only to lead to further restrictions and bans.

And nowhere does it say that a muslim woman should wear a niqab/burka and even the hijab is to some degree debatable

 

[xdrive]

Well it is said "When in Rome Do as the Romans do".

If she has decided to live in France she will have to comply with the rule of Law. If she cannot follow it, Go back to your country

Exactly.

The burqa has nothing to do with islam, it isn't in the koran.

There is freedom of religion in france and in every western country. Freedom of religion means that you are allowed to believe in whatever you want to believe in. The french government isn't saying "you are not allowed to be muslim"

They don't want the oppressive burqa (which has nothing to do with islam) being worn by women. Most women are made to wear it by their husbands.

 

[Hyde]

Exactly.

The burqa has nothing to do with islam, it isn't in the koran.

There is freedom of religion in france and in every western country. Freedom of religion means that you are allowed to believe in whatever you want to believe in. The french government isn't saying "you are not allowed to be muslim"

They don't want the oppressive burqa (which has nothing to do with islam) being worn by women. Most women are made to wear it by their husbands.

thats wrong Sir,

99% of the womens wear Burqas on their own will. I have never seen my family members wearing burqa in my life but whichever my relative did, its just their own will same is for other peoples. We are living in 21st Century and not 8th or 18th Century where Women can be oppressed to wear Burqa in Europe.

Its just like French are forcing them to take off their Burqas - against WOMEN's choice.

 

[Skeptic]

Thats all we needed to see. NABILAT... A reverse Taliban.

People are really stupid. If not religious sentiment - Atleast respect his / her privacy and Modest. I think the dude would exactly appreciate if someone ripped off her daughter's blouse. CRAP.

 

[Hyde]

Thats all we needed to see. NABILAT... A reverse Taliban.

People are really stupid. If not religious sentiment - Atleast respect his / her privacy and Modest. I think the dude would exactly appreciate if someone ripped off her daughter's blouse. CRAP.

who are you talking about?

 

[Skeptic]

who are you talking about?

The guy who ripped of the veil. Is that not reverse of what Taliban did. They forced people to wear veil, and we now have goons trying to rip them off....

 

[Pasban]

Hussein, I live in Denmark and they discussed a ban on Burka vigorously for months and tensions were high and the tone against muslims very sharp, but in the end they conducted a research that found out that nobody in all of Denmark wears it. I think it shows that the whole idea is of symbolic value and feeding on irrational feelings singling out muslims and that's even against the constitution.
So by trying to pass such laws, nobody actually dies from them (we hope) but this way the state now engages in anti-islamic sentiment only to lead to further restrictions and bans.

And nowhere does it say that a muslim woman should wear a niqab/burka and even the hijab is to some degree debatable

My name is not Hussein.

I agree with your point on symbolic value and I was referring to the same in my post. I think such actions would actually compel some people towards more radicals ideas and beliefs at both ends of the spectrum.

There is much vaguenss as you pointed out concerning the veil and it's exact linkage with religion. In most religious socieities, cultural traits build upon and justify themselves via religious beliefs, with the said traits then being defended religiously themselves.

 

[The Patriot]

i think when muslims chose to live in Western countries they should adopt their rules if they think its against their religion they should leave and go back to their countries.
my question is can we allow a western woman to go in her mini skirt or to a beach in bikini in Iran, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. No way.
Its both ways, Europeans can allow Muslims to preach their religion and make converts but we Muslim can never allow that in our countries.
Then why do we complain...

 

[Vassnti]

The guy who ripped of the veil. Is that not reverse of what Taliban did. They forced people to wear veil, and we now have goons trying to rip them off....

At one point the lawyer, who was out with her daughter

The lawyer in question was a woman, the sort of thing that happens in france, where women arent required by law to wear a tent when they go outside, they can actually get an education and a job.

If some one wants to live like an 10th century arab then go live in Saudi where that is encouraged, if you want to live in 20th century france then accept the norms.

I would love to know how many would be supporting the right to wear a tent in public, would be supporting my rights if next time im in Dubai i give a girl a good pash and spend the next 3 months in jail. After all i should have the right to do what I want no mater what is normal or legal in the country i am in right?